»Is Zion real and did you like Revolutions?«

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Zion is real & I love Revolutions. If anybody needs proof on Zion being real, watch the movies and pay close attention to every single conversation.

theres a whole forum for that buddy.

yeah but so many un answered questions.

i dont see it F'n rocked on there knnknn?

Is Zion real or just another virtual reality?

Oh no...even the wachowskies have their limits
(or don't they? )

IMHO, some good comments here. i agree with mesomorph that despite the wachowski's apparent love of plot twists, matrix-in-matrix is just going too far! (well i think that the point mesomorph was trying to make anyway...)

Agent Zero's right too, revolutions was not just OK, it was amazing, although as asian smith said, it did annoy me a bit at the lack of answers. although i wont complain cos this forum wouldnt exist if the wachowskis made it all simple...

just my thoughts on this...

Actually, for me, it was before Matrix 2 that I thought Zion was real. Afterwards, I pretty much thought it was fake. A Matrix-within-a-Matrix deal.

Disclaimer: I don't claim to be absolutely positive that this is the real deal, nor do I claim to have as in-depth a look at the Matrix as other posters here. Hell, I really am a bleeding newbie at some of the concepts their talking about. So don't attack me please! I'm new, I'm dumb and I don't know what the landmine topics around here yet.



Okay, here' my thoughts on why Zion isn't real.

1. Despite the fact that after the war between man and machine left the world, from what little corner we saw of it, as a veritable wasteland, would the machines actually have let it stay that bad? Machines seem to thrive on order, on logic, they have to obey the rules they were given because "all worlds are virtual to them" (bastardized line from the Animatrix). They have no sense of reality like we do. Not only that, it's isn't clean, there's so much debris lying around that it would probably hamper their activities and movments. Also, there's a lot of scrap metal lying around, and what are machines made of if not metal (and proabaly plastic)? Why would they leave that metal resource lying around like that?

Also, it serves no purpose for them to leave that mess lying around. They wouldn't really feel a desire to keep the world as their war had left it, I don't think. They would probably clean it up to look like 01, if I remember the name of the original Machine City properly. The Animatrix gave a good view of it, it was very clean, wasn't it. The cleanliness line mostly comes from my experience with how dust clogs up fans and other sentitive pieces of equipment, it would hamper the machines activity if every sentinel had to show up for a lube job once a month because it's ports were being clogged up by all the dust and junk that seems to have settled everywhere. Machines work more efficiently if their parts are clean and well-lubricated.

It's only humans that would expect to see the massive heaps of destruction still lying around after a war, they woudn't have a way to clean it up, nor a reason to do so. They would want to keep that stuff around as a memory of what they'd lost to the machines, keep that self-serving anger up and all. And that is what they see whenever you see them out in the "Real World" the place is a mess, just the way a post-war zone should look like.


2. The Architect in Matrix 2 said that the current version of the Matrix was V. 6. There had been 5 other Matrixes before it. All right, a few of people I've read posts from mentioned that if the Matrix had been made 5 times before then there have been 5 Zions as well. I forgot who, but someone said that if there had been 5 Zions before, why has the current incarnation of Zion failed to find any trace of the former? It could be argued that after the sentinels wiped the place out, they brought all the humans back, and but them back into the system a la the Soylent Green method. BUT, no matter how well they would have done their work of killing and destroying they would have missed at least one or two bodies, at least. How many people are in Zion 6? Looks like at least 2,000 to me, someone is bound to slip through the sieve with those sorts of numbers.

But, none have ever been found. Also, look at the layout of Zion. There's this convinently large cave-system attached to thermal vents, with a big enough space for a good-sized city, complete with a cavern that the entire population can fit into to hear speeches, a landing bay for a fleet of hoverships (which aren't small, by any strech), apartment cubicles for all the people in the city (though I do imagine that there is a lot of double bunking) and room to produce the food (porridge, snot, baby vomit, whatever...) And it happens to be convinently close enough to the Machine City and the Fields for the humans to raid every now and then.

And there were _5_ other individual places that fit those measurements as well (this is me assuming that all Zion programs are allowed to exist for 100 human years before the drive is rebooted for the next batch), and it takes the machines 100 year to pull together the resources to dig the rebels out and blow the place up....

*thinks for a moment* Nah.... that just doesn't seem likely to me.

I belive that Zion is just a spill-over program to contain the 00.1% of the "world" population that doesn't acccept the Matrix and gives them the illusion of freedom. I'm pretty sure the machines have downloaded all human libraries in existence, and in any book written with that sort of totalitarian rule, if given a hairsbreadth of leeway, trust me, some uppity fellow always manages to overthrow throw the evil tyrant. I just used that as an example, but I'm pretty sure that those stories were written just because on occasion people are able to pull that sort of thing off. Why would the machines give people the chance? They don't have a concept of "honor fighting" it would be illogical and downright ridiculous for them to give the humanrace a chance to actually get loose and start screwing with the power cords.

Anyway, going back to Zion, I think it's a spiill-over program designed to handle the unhappy major minority of folks who can't accept the real Matrix. People believe what they are willing to believe, all the people in Zion felt the the Matrix was fake, which it was, so they get to go to Zion which everyone says is real, and they are the same people who said the Matrix was fake. It might be the sense of novelty kicking in big time to make people feel that they actually have control of themselves. When in fact, before they were taken out of the Matrix, they couldn't tell you definitevely that the Matrix wasn't real, so how would they know that Zion wasn't real. They want it to be, so it is real to to them.

As for the time Zion existed. Since I'm not sure if Matrix cycles are the same as a human's years, lets assume for a moment that they are. On a computer hardrive, you can only alter so many things, without eventually having to run a allocatment program to sort the internal files out, because data is stored randomly wherever the computer has space, and that leads to a slow down in the proccessing speed because the machine has to look over a wider area to find the same information. Allocating sorts things our inside the computer, lets it organize files by size, subject, whatever, but it cleans it up and helps it speed back up again, as all the data is where it should be. The Matrix might only be able to tolerate 100 cycles of random data allotment before it needs to organize it's files again. Hence the One, he's the program that kick starts the organization program when he returns to the Source.

But the machines need a way to flush out the One program, since it is a randomly generated anomaly (remember all the potential Ones in the Oracle's appartment in Matrix 1). Hence the Zion resistance, and the Oracle's prophecy, those help the humans, which are capable of more flexible and jump-logic thought, find the One, and then the Matrix goes to work bending things to make the One see it's perspective on matters. As the Architect said (in another horrible bastirdization of lines) "the One is designed to feel a bond with humankind" so that the One, being human and ruled by human emotions, will chose to let Zion go to save Humanity, by rebooting the Matrix, starting the re-organization program. Like a lizard giving up it's tail to save it's life.

To me Zion is just a program to keep the 0.1% of people that would cause problems within the Matix itself isolated from the whole of the Matrix so that when it came time to delete them, as it would have to do to re-boot and clean the Zion program for the next 100 cycles, they were all isolated from the Matrix world so that their deaths wouldn't affect the drone populace. We all remember what happened on 9/11, the world stopped for a few hours, and even now we're still talking about what should've been done, what hadn't been done. And that was only for about 3,000 people who were killed, hardly a dent in the global population. That's too much hassle for the machines to want to mess with, they want to keep humanity nice, quiet and obedient, serving their purpose and all. So to wipe out 2,000 people in one fell swoop, while it'd be very easy to do inside the Matrix, it would inevitable cause a lot of backlash among the other people there, who have nothing to do with it. So it's better to take them out of the yard and shoot them so the rest of the herd isn't frightened into stampeding, if you catch my drift.


And I've been writting this for so long, I've forgotten how I wanted to end it. So I'll just leave it like this. My longest post so far. Sorry if this was placed on the wrong section, but I like to give reasons for my opinions.

Later all.


~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edit: I found the proper quote for the line I had in my point 1. It's from Nonaka in the Animatrix short 'Matriculated': "To an artificial mind, all reality is virtual. How do they know that the real world isn't just another simulation? How do you?"

I chose that none of them applied. I do believe that Zion exists, but there are several theories that do in fact make since about Zion being another form of control (another Matrix). Plus, I dont think Revolutions is disappointing or ok, but simply: MAGNIFICENT!

Zion is real!
Revolution r0x

This is a little O.T., but...

Has anyone considered that Zion could be both real and virtual?

Like there might have been a real Zion, but then the Machines modelled it and created their own "virtual" Zion, which is an extension of the Matrix.

I haven't yet theorized on how or why they might do that, but it's an interesting possibility. Just one of those things you kinda "wish" would happen, just to give the plot a bit of twist and intrigue!

Mycroft wrote:

1. Despite the fact that after the war between man and machine left the world, from what little corner we saw of it, as a veritable wasteland, would the machines actually have let it stay that bad? Machines seem to thrive on order, on logic, they have to obey the rules they were given because "all worlds are virtual to them" (bastardized line from the Animatrix). They have no sense of reality like we do. Not only that, it's isn't clean, there's so much debris lying around that it would probably hamper their activities and movments. Also, there's a lot of scrap metal lying around, and what are machines made of if not metal (and proabaly plastic)? Why would they leave that metal resource lying around like that?

Wow that was impressive, that has really changed the way i see it

Define Real

keep the faith, enter into enlightenment

Wow, most folk thought that #3 was OK (as I did).

haven't been to these forums for a long long time, but it's nice to know that there's life here still.

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