»Matrix is Control«

Hello Everyone.

"What is the Matrix? - Control".

What we sense - see, hear, touch, smell, etc, all that is supplied to us via Control. We are not the brain, nor the body - we are consciousness. And there is meta-conciousness that supplies the information to our senses, creating the picture of the World in our minds via Control. And there is even greater meta-consciousness, and so forth to the Absolute Consciousness. So in actuality we do live in a Matrix which is in a Matrix, which is in a greater Matrix and so forth until we reach the Absolute.

The question to ask is in the M1, how does Neo knows that he is actually out of the Matrix when Morpheous and CO take him out by means of the tracing program? That is, when Neo opens his eyes and sees the world of the Machines, how does he know that he has been "plugged out"? May be the Machines are still feeding him this information. And Zion is just a projection of the Machines.

Then may be there is no "Machines" so to speak. What is portrayed by the Machines in the movie, are actually meta-minds, meta-consciousness, that feed the information to our senses to our minds (which is not the brain). Everything we sense is in our minds, including our bodies.

When Morpheous asked Neo the question "what if you were not able to wake up from the dream"... I would rephrase it "what if you *were* able to wake up from the dream... how would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

How do you know if you are in another Matrix or not? The truth is you don't. It is all about belief. If you think you are 'out' of the Matrix than that is how it is. If you believe you are in it still than that is how it is.

I am a MWAM [Matrix within a Matrix] person. Looks like that is kind of what you believe too.


You made a good point. What is real?


In M1 there are many clues that Zion and the rest of the 'Real' world may be another form of control. Heck, in M2 we find out that Neo was a part in another form of control [the One, Prophecy] so why not believe that Zion is just another form of control too. Zion does house those few that did not accept the Matrix.

Control at the highest and lowest of levels and not even Neo saw that coming until around the end of M2. I thought that was funny and half sad.

AgentDragon

I guess you right it is sort of belief. At least to some point - we can confirm, after all, that we cannot say that there exists something beyond our minds. Meta-consciousness? Well, it is a belief until you are shown the proof. Like you said, "what is real?". If it is what we see, hear, touch, smell its nothing but senses interpreted by our consciousness. We can be shown hints of the real, and it is up to us to make interpretation. So may be it's a combination of belief and experience... Belief becomes the experience of the Real.

VedMed wrote:

AgentDragon I guess you right it is sort of belief. At least to some point - we can confirm, after all, that we cannot say that there exists something beyond our minds. Meta-consciousness? Well, it is a belief until you are shown the proof. Like you said, "what is real?". If it is what we see, hear, touch, smell its nothing but senses interpreted by our consciousness. We can be shown hints of the real, and it is up to us to make interpretation. So may be it's a combination of belief and experience... Belief becomes the experience of the Real.

It is like religion. You can ask a thousand people what their own interpretation of the Bible is and guess what? You shall get a thousand different interpretations. It is all a matter of belief and proof.

Belief and proof. The two things that shape the foundations of counteries and shake entire continents. It can cause war and kill millions. Everyone should seek the truth. The truth is out there. Hope I did not sound too X-files-ish.

lol thats almost scary.

U ever get the feeling like a strong sense of a presence the "matrix" or whatever it is.?

Who here hasn't felt a splinter in their mind? Not many I'd say. but what is the splinter? That is the truth we all seek. Even finding a purpose for yourself that may be incorrect is still better than living a bluepill life and taking everything at face value.

As for MWAM, there is so many pieces of "evidence" supporting both sides. However, trying to prove one way or another is simple. The intellectual property of the Matrix world is the Wachowski's and in an interview I believe Larry said, in plain english, "There is no Matrix Within A Matrix." Unfortunately, that was one of the most detrimental things he could have said because it easily kills one of the most widely discussed topics on the films. BUT, perhaps he did it on purpose so the fans wouldn't waste their time and brain-power discussing irrelevant topics so we could focus more on using the films to pursue truth in our own world, instead of trying to disprove answers given to us by the people who gave us the questions. -Now that is control... getting people to try and answer your questions with information you have given them.

Never heard Larry saying this.

Kozar wrote:

in an interview I believe Larry said, in plain english, "There is no Matrix Within A Matrix."

Larry's never said that. Keanu's said that, but not Larry.

CaptPostMod wrote:

Kozar wrote: in an interview I believe Larry said, in plain english, "There is no Matrix Within A Matrix." Larry's never said that. Keanu's said that, but not Larry.

I agree. From the first page of matrix-explained.com... :

Quote:

Take another riddle: Zion. Is Zion real? Or is it a mere simulation? This is one of the biggest questions of the trilogy. Keanu Reeves: "I think in terms of the representation of the films, the Brothers don't tend to do things like that, like hood-wink you. It's not like, 'I see dead people', where you are watching this whole movie and then, 'By the way...' I don't think they do that kind of cinema. So my answer to your question is 'No'. I don't think it is so boxes within boxes. I think that Zion is Zion. But if you want to go: 'Is it the blink of Vishnu?' Maybe. But in terms of literally and the world of the pictures, no."

The only thing I'd add is, because the W's interviews are very few. Wouldn't we think that Keanu would have a better perspective on what the W's implied regarding th mwam theory? I think if anyone would know outside of the W's it would be Keanu.

Thoughts?

I think it's very interesting that Keanu would use the word hood-wink, considering that word's connection to esoteric and Mystery traditions.

My point of view is that clearly, there is no hint for the "Matrix-within-Matrix" theory within the Matrix movies...
on the contrary!

I would be happy to read arguments for this MWAM theory.

The Matrix Trilogy (M*) has many faces, many levels.
Many of these levels are based on an opposition.
Like:
- Neo is the individual and Smith is the society/group/communist.
- Neo believes in choice/freedom and the Merovegian believes in causality/determinism/fate.
...
One of these opposition is:
- the Matrix is control/artificial/dreams/drugs while the real world, even ugly or unconfortable is freedom, truth, reality.

Among the messages of the M* there is no nihilist point of view like "you can never know, so let it go, do not fight, do not try to find the truth, it's a box within a box, you can never be free, so never mind...".

No! In the M*, you can find the opposite message: even if your life is quite nice and normal, do not accept it if it's fake or if you feel that it's fake. Like The Kid... if you realy feel that it's fake, you have the power the wake-up from this dream.
It can be understood in many ways (again!) for example like in "Fight Club": your life as a lambda American working all your life to buy the right sofa/car/house is fake; you are in a system that controls you. Is it realy what you want to do with your life? You've got only one! Think of it. Even if it's uncomfortable, you should chose the truth, the real world.
Even you have to fight for it.
In M1 Cypher decided that the real world is too uneasy/uncomfortable. He decided to get back in the Matrix, in the dream, in the system... He decided to let others (here, machines) to take the decisions, make the choices for him.
And he is a "bad guy". The M1 shows that he has made the wrong decision.

I can continue for hours. The M* is strongly based on the opposition between the Matrix and the real world.
That's very clear.
But I'm open to other opinions... give me arguments from the M*!

Outside the M* the idea is interresting!
It reminds me a drawing from M.C. Escher "The Dragon" whose meaning is beautifuly explained in "Gödel, Escher, Bach" from Douglas Hofstadter. The Dragon is not a real dragon, just an image/simulation of a dragon. He is trying to go left and right, up and down, to make holes in the pictures and enter it. Despites all its efforts he can not gain an extra dimension: he remains with two dimensions, an image/simulation of a dragon and not a real one.

You're right, it's impossible to prove that we/someone/Neo is actualy out of the Matrix, that he is not within another (or simply the same) Matrix.

But it's not what is said/demonstrated/shown in the M*.

Good post.

Ditto

Religion is control.. FACT

used as nothing more than a way to control mankind, worked for many years, aint working so well now...

Research real religion people, religion as it was many thousands of years back, there was no GOD but there was beings etc