»"These are the other potentials..."«

tozy wrote:

And this gets us to: how does spoon boy know that Neo is going to see the Oracle?

And how does Kid knows that he's going to see the Oracle?

Hm.... matrix-explained.com... --> dynamicobjects.com...

Quote:

KEANU REEVES Right. And what should I do now? NEW NEW ORACLE I see darkness spreading. I see empty movie theaters. I see us making millions and millions of dollars anyway. Everything that has a beginning has an end. You have to try to stop Hugo Weaving, because even though he's a piece of software running in a simulated reality, he is impossible to stop. The holes are too big. KEANU REEVES The holes? NEW NEW ORACLE Plot-holes. KEANU REEVES Cool. See you. Keanu LEAVES.

tozy wrote:

Capt wrote: As for why they are called potentials and yet the Spoon Boy is a program, the Oracle could have been misleading Neo. The other potential what's? Maybe she meant potential Sati's? Why would she when Sati - who appears only about 6 months later - is the first of her kind and so damn special that the Oracle sacrifices her shell to save her from deletion?

Why when Neo arrives just a few months later is Morpheus suddenly willing to lay it all on the line to make sure this potential One (Neo) doesn't die in his care as the potential One's before did? When you find potentials, you find potentials, when you find the One ...

tozy wrote:

Also, they can't have met in the Matrix because there was just one ship on broadcast level,... while the kid did welcome Neo back to Zion.

The Kid's a total ditz. When he first saw Neo he may have already had the spoon in his back pocket and just didn't get it to him until he needed one more reason to chase after him before he left.

tozy wrote:

To involve the kid? Why?... I have no idea!...

Gotta appreciate honesty

tozy wrote:

And this gets us to: how does spoon boy know that Neo is going to see the Oracle?

You're absolutely right, it does get us to ask: why would the Spoon Boy send a spoon now?

ps. Doesn't anyone else think these three potentials look freakishly similiar?

CaptPostMod wrote:

ps. Doesn't anyone else think these three potentials look freakishly similiar?

Hm.. let's check the storyboards and the script:

She leads Neo down another hall and into what appears to
be a family room.
There is another woman in white sitting on a couch
watching a soap opera. Scattered about the room are a
half dozen children. Some of them are playing, others are
deep in meditation. All of them exude a kind of Zen calm.

PRIESTESS
These are the other Potentials.
You can wait here.

Neo watches a little girl levitate wooden alphabet
blocks. Closer to him, a SKINNY BOY with a shaved head
holds a spoon which sways like a blade of grass.
In front of him is a pile of spoons bent and twisted into
knots. Neo crosses to him and sits. The boy smiles and
hands Neo the spoon which is now perfectly straight.

CaptPostMod wrote:

[ps. Doesn't anyone else think these three potentials look freakishly similiar?

yeah. thats actually pretty creepy. the script say what it says, but those pics are again, creepy.

Then what about this: matrix-explained.com...

Has anyone ever read John Fowles' The Magus? Seems to fit that "potentials" scene well.

I'm glad to have the script validate that they all look the same. The striking similiarity between those three hit me from the very first time I saw the movie. They look like variations on a template, don't they?

Still having fun, Capt...

"Spoon Boy"

captpostmod wrote:

But by that logic, we never see the Kid (from any of the movies or animatrix) have any contact w/ the spoon boy in Zion either.

But we did see him sitting in a restaurant with the spoon boy?

The focus is on Thomas or NEO, that's why. Scenes like the one you're talking about add nothing (new) to the plot and who would add it to the movie considering budget, shooting time, and final editing constraints, not to mention keeping Reloaded moving at a certain pace?

captpostmod wrote:

And furthering that thought. If the orphan is in Zion, why doesn't he give Neo the spoon himself?

I take it this question is to build a straw man argument. The inability to answer this question in a way that rules out your point = your point prevails, even though this question really has very, very little to do with your point. Let me, thus reflect it back atcha: If the spoon boy is in the matrix, how the heck does he get a message to the Kid in the first place, why do this, when he can just meet Neo, in the matrix himself? Doesn't sound like the thinking of a machine to me.

Hehe Capt. you might have changed your shell but what you are beneath still remains the same. LOL!

Sati?
th3 p4th posted this quote:
"She leads Neo down another hall and into what appears to
be a family room.
There is another woman in white sitting on a couch
watching a soap opera. Scattered about the room are a
half dozen children. Some of them are playing, others are
deep in meditation. All of them exude a kind of Zen calm.

PRIESTESS
These are the other Potentials.
You can wait here."

I can't see a character not introduced until much later as fitting into the context of "other potentials".

But...

Gina Rink, in 7/7 wrote:

It is something for you to figure out. If you don't put them in the oven, how will they ever bake? It's like how you have to figure out why Sati is there.

Forgive me for this rather lengthy essay but I feel the need to clear up the matter of the potentials. I'm basing my conclusions solely on the evidence of the movies and the comics, which are the only places you meet any potentials.

Quote:

Kid: One of the orphans said to give you this...He said you'd understand.

To me this seems to firmly establish that Kid has done something because he was told to (Just like Merovengian said was the reason people do things) even though he did not know the "why" (otherwise he would'nt have had to say that Neo would know why he was bringing him a spoon---he himself would have already known). This, to me, rules out any communication within the Matrix by Kid. He had no first hand knowledge of why a spoon would have any significance (he wasn't in Oracle's apartment) nor does he have any secondhand knowledge (the person who gave him the spoon didn't tell him it's significance). Finally he himself didn't really see any significance in it either. But he knew it was important. How?

Well the answer that comes to me most readilly is that Neo talked to others about his experiences. MxO establishes very clearly that Kid has conversations with Neo that no one is aware of (Cryptos wanting to use virtual nukes within the Matrix) including we the viewers. If this fact was allowed in the online game then the Bros. want this to be an underlying fact of the story itself.

There are conversations that have taken place that we the viewers are totally unaware of. It was a person, not a program, that told Kid about the spoon. Kid says it was one of the orphans, so now we must ask how did this orphan know about it?

Who Doesn't Know?

The door to Oracle's apartment can be reached physically in the Matrix but what is behind the door in the building that Morpheus and Neo went to was not her apartment. It was a backdoor. Remember, Neo didn't actually touch the doorknob to open it. As we all know when you go into an area accessed through a backdoor you can become difficult or even impossible to find by an operator on one of the ships. So we know neither Tank (nor anyone else outside the Matrix) had first hand knowledge of what happened in Oracle's apartment.

Who Knows?

When Neo returns to Zion in Reloaded it is clear that his entire life has been laid bare. The people of Zion know who he is and know everything about him. Since only 3 people (I mean humans) knew about the spoon then those are the only one who could have translated that knowledge out of the Matrix.

Morpheus, Neo and Trinity (I say Trinity because he references the spoon in her presence on top of the elevator). That is how the truth of the spoon got out. One of them spoke about it. I suspect it was most likely Morpheus. He, after all, has to substantiate his belief in Neo as someone special.

A Brief Aside: I'd also like to say that MxO has established the existence of "cheat codes". These are special ways that any person within the Matrix can gain special powers just like cheat codes in a video game. While none of these people is as powerful as The One I think it still is worth mentioning that I don't think any of the potentials is using a cheat code.

I believe the children are programs. Why? I think the rest of the trilogy makes it clear that she only likes to pal around with other programs (Sati, Priestess, Seraph, Rama Kandra), not people. Furthermore we never see or hear from any of these potentials again. If they were people, where are they jacking in from? Who is monitoring them? How do they keep finding Oracle? Why must Neo "wait" to hear from Oracle if someone in Zion has an inside track to her? Making the "potentials" into actual children doesn't make sense in the final analysis.

What About the Online Comic?

It further bolsters the point. The story from the comic only establishes the reason Oracle forbids them to travel out on their own. They are young and naieve and curious. They will try to contact the world outside the Matrix at the first opportunity and that is what will lead an agent to them. The girl potential in the story calls an operator and asks him "Are you from the outside?" This implies the child is aware of but has never been to the "real world". His first response is "you shouldn't be using this line". Well, that is no way to treat an obvious redpill.

The operator then responds "Don't think of it as 'real' or 'not real'." The operator is annoyed she is accessing a hard line out of the Matrix but he never offers for her to jack out. Nor does she ask to jack out. He doesn't ask who she is (he already knows) and he doesn't offer her the opportunity to leave the Matrix. And isn't that all that people on the ships do- offer people to leave the Matrix? And the younger the person is who wants to leave, the better, right? So why not this child? No one offered for her to leave because she CANNOT leave. Furthermore she doesn't belong in the "real" world. But like any child who doesn't fully understand what is happening to them, or why the world is the way it is, she inquires about doing something that is simply not possible. Ahhh, youth.

The potentials are a point in and of themselves. It is the information that they are to convey that is the real point.

matrix-explained.com...

I found it at the "bring-up-random-threads" module.

And what about this comic: whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com...

and some info about the actor and his look: whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com...

th3 p4th wrote:

matrix-explained.com... I found it at the "bring-up-random-threads" module. And what about this comic: whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com...

Somebody up there must like me Thanks, th3 p4th!

And awesome post Evo. Though I'm a little confused. Are you saying that the Kid brought Neo the spoon of his on volition?

My previous post has been edited.

Look again.

EDIT

If you believe the that comics are cannonical (I don't) then what do you think of the comic that I just posted it's url? You can see spoon boy and Oracle.

Could the little girl be the girl that you can see in Capt's image? Both of them can lift cubes with their mind.

th3 p4th wrote:

Could the little girl be the girl that you can see in Capt's image? Both of them can lift cubes with their mind.

The girl on the left in my image (blond hair) is a different girl than the one floating the blocks on the right of my image (brown hair).

Hard to tell though, isn't it?

CaptPostMod wrote:

The girl on the left in my image...

... is spoon boy's (the actor's) sister (imdb.com...)...

CaptPostMod wrote:

...is a different girl than the one floating the blocks on the right of my image (brown hair). Hard to tell though, isn't it?

Nah,... not really. But, of course...

intell wrote:

You all look the same to me.

tozy wrote:

intell wrote: You all look the same to me.

Actually I wrote it, not intell

Capt I thought that the girl on the left also played with the cubes.. I didn't think that she and the girl on the right are the same person.

But now I have the feeling that all the kids at the comic look like the potentials at M1.

Weird. Really.

EDIT

Lol tozy!

th3 p4th wrote:

Actually I wrote it, not intell

Oups, sorry,.... you both have a red avatar and thus look the same to me...

Well.. what about now?

I will no more confuse you with intell,... but I won't recognize you either... for a while...

Yeah, that's how it works. Some bits you lose, some bits you keep. I don't yet recognize my face in the mirror, but... I still love Matrix - Explained!

Lol

Okay....

Stay on topic people

th3 p4th wrote:

But now I have the feeling that all the kids at the comic look like the potentials at M1.

Well, the 3 potentials on that first page of the comic you posted match up with Spoon Boy, Sister of Spoon, and Block Girl.

You don't get as clear a view of the other three on that page or in the movie. But to me Spoon Boy, Block Girl, and Sister of Spoon all look really similiar. Anyone know what Book Boy is reading?

It seems like maybe Evo is right. Originally, they were all suppossed to look alike (as evidenced by the script). The W's dropped the idea, but had already cast 3 that looked alike. So they kept them and added 3 who didn't look alike. Changing perceptions of what they wanted.

With these avatar changes at least now it will be easy to tell all of us apart on here (and now I can say "I'm a chick" too!)

CaptPostMod wrote:

And awesome post Evo. Though I'm a little confused. Are you saying that the Kid brought Neo the spoon of his on volition?

Evolusionary wrote:

Morpheus, Neo and Trinity (I say Trinity because he references the spoon in her presence on top of the elevator). That is how the truth of the spoon got out. One of them spoke about it...

Neo was on the path to enlightment. He spoke to Kid about some of the things he knew. He spoke freely to Councillor Hamaan. All of Zion knew the intimate details of Morpheus's search for The One (Commander Locke knew it so well he used it against Morpheus to seperate Niobe from him).

There are so secrets in Zion. Everyone trusts everyone else. They have to in order to survivie. For that reason neither Neo nor anyone else with him had any reason to hold any secrets. Neo and/or Morpheus/Trinity blabbed to someone about the spoon. The story circulated among the orphans. One of orphans wanted to show Neo that they understood the meaning of the spoon (and that Neo had taught them something important about belief) and thus gave him back what he gave to them--- a spoon that represented understanding the truth.

In the end the people of Zion had a choice. They could either follow Commander Locke's belief that their salvation lay in force of arms, or they could have faith (and faith is far different from belief) in Neo. When you accept the truth, you can bend the spoon. And thus Neo was given the spoon to verify that that child accepted the truth.

CaptPostMod wrote:

With these avatar changes at least now it will be easy to tell all of us apart on here (and now I can say "I'm a chick" too!)

Evolusionary in your post(and your previous one) there's too much original research.

P4Th, perhaps I didn't do enough research.

I just read the whole comic again. While it doesn't disprove my point about the children being programs there is one problem.

In the end it would appear she has exited the Matrix via a phone. I don't know if there is a follow up story to this one. It is a dangling plotline. Whatever happens after that trace on her call would answer all the questions we have. Until then I stand by my explaination as stated.

To be continued...

Evolusionary wrote:

In the end it would appear she has exited the Matrix via a phone.

Arghh, defeat! I mean we can cry, "The comics are non-cannon," but c'mon. Sometimes you gotta know when to stop counting the hanging chads and let it go, right?

Funny though, before M2-M3 I thought the potentials were programs and the Oracle was really just a prophetic old lady! Then M2 flipped that 'cause of the orphan comment, so I knew Oracle was a program and the potentials were human. Then that sculpture come to life comic and that other thread (which isn't the one th3 p4th linked to, incidentally, there's another one) put me back to thinking that the potentials were programs...

Now we just have to convince me that the Oracle really is human and the circle will be complete

matrix-explained.com...

th3 p4th wrote:

matrix-explained.com...

I suck at using that thing