»Arguments for MiM (Matrix Within Matrix)«

Firstly, I'd like to say the first problem I have with the Matrix, is the Oracle. How can the Oracle predict everything that will happen in the Matrix? If there is information outside the Matrix affecting what goes on inside the Matrix (i.e. Zion, via people jacking into the Matrix, like Neo, Trinity, Morpheous etc.), then how can the Oracle know all the information that is inside the Matrix and the information outside the Matrix (Zion, Machine World, the Hovercrafts etc.).

If the Matrix was a closed system, which it is not. Then it would be possible for the Oracle to know the state of every electronic-'atom' and roughly know the state of everyones' mind that is jacked into the Matrix, and therefore predict the future (i.e. causality). If for example an asteroid (in the realworld) was headed to one of the people connected to the Matrix. Then that asteroid would've killed someone (most likely thousands) or destroyed some hardware, thus affecting the state of the Matrix. Would the Oracle be able to predict something like that happening? Or a solar flare from the Sun affecting the Matrix? Or the actions of someone in Zion, or anything not completely contained in the Matrix?

For me the only way the Oracle can predict the future correctly, is if the outside world (Real world), is a 2nd Matrix, or part of the same Matrix.

Causuality is a very delicate thing, one atom in the wrong place in the real world, could ripple into the Matrix, unless perfectly contained. - the Matrix is not perfectly contained, because people from the real world (those Freed, like Neo, Trinity, Morpheous), are constantly jacking into the Matrix, and going to Zion. i.e. Information from the real world is propagating through into the Matrix.

So if for example someone from Zion says "Hey Neo, next time you go in the Matrix, I want you to jump in the air". How would the Oracle know that someone from Zion would tell Neo that, and that Neo would do it?

So this means the Oracle knows everything that is going on in the Matrix & and that in the "Real World".

That's the core argument for there being a Matrix in Matrix (or that they never left the Matrix, it was just program changes, like when Neo thought he woke up from a Dream, when the Agents bugged him in "The Matrix").

There are lots of other signs indicating MiM:

How Neo could "see" when he was blind. - MiM solves this. Arguments like why couldn't he see Trinity etc. are flawed, as it's really up to the Matrix what things Neo can see. Just because Neo thinks he's "The One" inside the Matrix, doesn't mean he's "The One" outside the Matrix.

I think the architect said this was the 6th Matrix. Therefore there should be 5 Zions before, aswell as other wreckage of past battles between Zion/Hovercraft & The Machines. Notice the hovercrafts all say something like "Made in USA 2100" (or somewhere around the year 2100). None of them say "Made in Zion". This suggests to me that they should be gradually running out of American made hovercrafts from the late 21st century. An easy answer would be that Zion is actually part of The Matrix, aswell as the hovercrafts, machine city etc. and they're just re-created for the next Matrix itteration.

Also the Sentinel that Neo "Absorbed", without it completely smashing into the hovercraft that Neo & Trinity were in when they were travelling to 01 aka Machine City. Again MiM would solve that problem. Since Trinity died, and Neo was pulled away by the machines, suggests that noone will be able to tell Zion of this Amazing feat Neo accomplished.

When Zion is celebrating, Morpheous asks "Is this real?".

What did the Oracle mean at the end when she said to the Architect to free the others? Who were the Others?
i. Everyone plugged inside the Matrix (thats 6billion, and means the destruction of the Matrix). - Neo only asked for Peace, not the destruction of the Matrix. So it couldn't be all the people plugged in the Matrix.
ii. The few exiles. - Don't really see the point, and they can only live in the Matrix (Sati, Oracle, Seraph etc.)
iii. The surviving people of Zion (i.e. those outside the Matrix). - If they're really inside the Matrix (MiM), then maybe the Oracle meant, bring those people back in the Matrix - Although they don't have holes, but maybe that doesn't matter.

These signs, may be nothing, but the Oracle part is what I have the most trouble with. So I'm betting it's a MiM. In the next Matrix they'll show this realisation, I can't imagine another next Matrix movie plot working without the MiM scenario. I mean who wants to watch a Matrix 4, which is just about more people being freed, and someone else becoming The One, doing the same old thing again.

Another quick odd thing that's bugging me, I wonder if you guys can help me out:

At the end of Reloaded, Neo rendered the four sentinels inactive, and fell into a coma... In Revolutions, he woke up trapped in the Train station (between worlds). When they finally rescued Neo, the next thing we saw was Neo being unplugged from The Matrix onboard the ship, with a bunch of people around him, and Neo said "I need some time to think", and then they went to check on Bane.

So what does this mean? I thought Neo wasn't even connected to the Matrix. How can he go from laying on the sick-bed unplugged, to being plugged in? - Or did they plug him in when he was unconscious (and omit it from the script) LOL? - Again MiM theory could argue that it was just another program change.

- The machines could have rebuild Zion and provided the materials once the 23 peoepl were choosen...
- She cannot see past choices...
- There is always something outside a simulation, failure are previsible?
- selective view? WTF
- they are all from the matrix, so they can leave it for a while, it doesn't prevent knowing what they will do in the matrix (and out), especially if they builded Zion themselves.
- plugged/unplugged, read my post "zion is real"


Edit:
The Wacho bros always used coherent things that make sens, they would never use these kind of "selective view" rules to make things hold together. Especially for things not explained.

- selective view? WTF

Hmm, I don't know what you're refering to in my post. I'm guessing you're refering to:

How Neo could "see" when he was blind. - MiM solves this. Arguments like why couldn't he see Trinity etc. are flawed, as it's really up to the Matrix what things Neo can see. Just because Neo thinks he's "The One" inside the Matrix, doesn't mean he's "The One" outside the Matrix.

What I meant by this, is that even though Neo may be the one, when he's inside the Matrix he is not *GOD, he can't teleport from one side of the planet to the other (thats why he does his "Superman thing" when trying to save Morpheous+Key Maker in reloaded) etc. If the real world was actually part of the Matrix, it still doesn't mean he can do whatever he can do inside the Matrix, he has to Believe, which he doesn't, he believes the world outside the Matrix is the real, when it still might not, also when Neo was in the Train station (between worlds), he still couldn't do what he could do inside the Matrix, he was subject to the rules of the trainmaster.

You could say:

Neo is like a *"god" inside the Matrix. (still The Matrix)
TrainMaster is like "god" between worlds. (still The Matrix)
neither are "gods" in the real world. (still The Matrix)

*whereby "god" meaning just very powerful. and GOD meaning able to do anything totally.

Fact is there is no way to prove or disprove that the real world is the Matrix. We can only speculate what the Wachoski Bro's intended to be real & not real. I think this was their intention.

ok...i answered to that in "zion is real"

First, the Oracle didnt predict everything. She only knew how certain events would play out. How? Same reason the Architect did. There is a certain measure of predictability they can make about the One because he is created to do certain things at a certain time in the matrix, namely reboot it, but there are also certain milestones he passes by each time. A good example is the dream sequence: the Oracle knew what he saw, but was very curious to know how Neo interpreted what he saw- did Trinity die or not? Because he didnt say yes, he gave her hope that he might make a different choice than the others. Even Merovingian knew when Neo came to the table what he wanted- this has gone down several times before. But after Neo made the choice no one else did, all bets were off. After that there was no predictions, only analysis of what choices could take place.

Neo's blind vision: he wasnt seeing code! It wasnt the matrix. Plus, Neo does things inside the Matrix that no one else can right? Regardless of if its fake or not, he does things no one else can- he is superhuman. Now in the real world he is blinded... his other senses become sharper... for some reason he can sense a certain kind of energy. But you already knew he was superhuman so..

Tank tells Neo that Zion is the LAST free city... so there were others before apparently. There havent been any companies to manufacture anything since the war, so what else could they use? Maybe before in previous times there were larger fleets- that would explain how the machines find it easier and easier to destroy the cities.

"noone will be able to zion of this amazing feat" i dont know man, you gotta talk english here...

is this real... meaning 'I cant believe it'- I think its meant to allude to the whole fake reality, but its just that,its not to be taken at face value.

"the others" people unhappy or unfulfilled by the Matrix simulation.

*Sorry about that bit, I was rushing those points thru, forgot to put in the word "tell", I've Edited it now, basically it should read:

Also the Sentinel that Neo "Absorbed", without it completely smashing into the hovercraft that Neo & Trinity were in when they were travelling to 01 aka Machine City. Again MiM would solve that problem. Since Trinity died, and Neo was pulled away by the machines, suggests that noone will be able to tell Zion of this Amazing feat Neo accomplished.

The Sentinel that Neo "Absorbed", that I'm refering to can be found on

Couple of thoughts after seeing Revolutions ... and ending up with more questions than answers.

Regarding Ichidan's comments about the end of the movie and the reference by the Oracle to "what about the others?"

--> I'm pretty confident that this is just referring to all the people in battery-mode, captive and still connected to the Matrix. As part of the peace, the machines (and their chief representative in the Matrix itself, the Architect) are supposed to release the rest of the humans from bondage and establish a peace with mankind.

--> It was suggested by somebody that this would make the Matrix itself irrelevant (since it wouldn't be needed anymore to control captive human minds); but Revolutions goes out of its way (with Saty and her family) to emphasize that programs - not just humans or even machines - are also sentient, emotive, and sometimes independent. So even if there are no humans plugged into the Matrix, you still have a virtual world with a bunch of things like the Oracle and Merovingian and random cats and things hanging around.

--> So the peace is a 3-way affair, with humans, machines, and programs.

--> There are holes in this little thesis, since I don't see why the machines would feel compelled to cooperate with Neo and hold off from obliterating Zion just because of losing control of the Matrix to Smith ... and having stopped Smith, having to unplug all the humans and go off in search of a new power source seems like kind of a raw deal for the machines.

--> Then again, the alternative for the machines would be for Smith to control the Matrix (which was supposed to self-destruct and kill all the captive humans, according to the Architect's comments to Neo in Reloaded, I think). I think the implications are that Smith would control the Matrix, keep it from self-destructing, and instead use his control to control the human batteries and hold them ransom against the machines, thereby posing a much more annoying threat to machine civilization than a bunch of freed humans.

Separately, I still haven't figured out
(i) what the story is with Neo's powers outside the Matrix (assuming that Zion is not a figment of another Matrix itself),
(ii) what the Wach brothers are trying to say in the final scene with Neo vs. Smith / Oracle,
(iii) how the peace is supposed to manifest itself with 250,000 or so humans living near the earth's core + 6 billion newly unplugged former batteries at the earth's surface + a bunch of now peaceful machines
(iv) why they bothered lingering on relatively useless new concepts like the Trainman and more fight scenes with the Merovingian's crowd instead of backing up the core themes a little more
(v) why they couldn't at least arrange for some kind of burial or something of Trinity instead of leaving her dead on some wreckage while Neo goes off and sacrifices himself for the end of the war

On the topic of Neo's powers and the Matrix-within-Matrix theme, I was hoping for a much clearer explanation of this in the movie.

Someone noted that the Oracle's simple comment about the One's powers extending beyond the Matrix was unsatisfying. I agree.

I had been expecting some kind of deal and let's-all-be-friends theme, as well as a love-conquers-all theme and a final-self-sacrifice-by-Neo theme in the Revolutions, and these were more or less on target (though I am still bummed about Trinity dying). But I had also been expecting a more powerful statement, one way or the other, about reality and perceptions thereof. Something that would lay it all out about a multiple matrix, or that the only thing real is the mind while all perceptions by it are a kind of illusion, or something like that.

But now I'm back where I started, apparently in the same boat as many other commentators ... Neo doing inexplicable things like seeing reality in a glowing format, destroying (and absorbing) machines with his mind, Morpheus wondering in the end if the whole thing is real or not.

I liked the effort at a technical explanation of Neo's actions in terms of analog / digital conversion and sending wireless impulses to the machines ... but none of this explains to me the wholesale absorbing of a sentinal. The only way this works is if reality in the movie is all just another form of matrix ... but if this was their point, the Wach brothers could have made it a helluva lot clearer, I think.