»Was there a One in the Architect's failed versions?«

My understanding of how the One comes about is that he is engineered by the Machines. He is a human (as the movies point out repeatedly), but he is given a connection to the Source that enables him to do the unique things that he can do. Under my theory, the One is not some sort of phenomenon that pops up unexpectedly. The One is not the result of an anomaly reaching a certain point. Instead, I believe that the Architect knows precisely when the One appears, because he MAKES him appear.

However, if you believe that the One is a result of the anomaly (people rejecting the Matrix), then there would have been a One in EVERY version of the Matrix--including the Architect's failed versions. Why? Because when people reject the Matrix, they are in essence creating the systemic anomaly. And eventually that anomaly will grow in size to the point where a One appears. Granted, in the failed versions, the One probably wouldn't have been around very long since by the time the entire population began rejecting the simulation it wouldn't have lasted much longer after that. But there would have been a One nonetheless. Now I don't see anything in any of the references to these early versions that says that there WEREN'T any Ones, but I haven't seen anyone bring this up before.

Any thoughts?

First of all, if your first paragraph is true, then there could be no ONE at all in the failed versions, if for no other reason than the fact that there could be no control measure for such massive failures.

Second, I'm not so sure if the tenets upheld in the first paragraph will hold up to the scrutiny that I'm almost certain Hexediter will bring up.

And now for the real world perspective on this. In the first 2 societies, there was no need for a savior inasmuch as the revolt was so large, it was enough to bring down the systems. Now that there is so much complacency and compliance with the current society, a savior is needed for those disinfranchised by it, (becoming aware of it) vis-a-vis, your famous 1%+.

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if you believe that the One is a result of the anomaly (people rejecting the Matrix), then there would have been a One in EVERY version of the Matrix--including the Architect's failed versions.

Not necessarily. The versions that failed, did so because a majority rejection, not an anomaly. The Architect even attributed it to the imperfection inherent in every human being. Furthermore, instead of saying that the ONE results from the people who refuse society, or the refusal itself, it might be more accurate to say that the ONE is the worse case scenario of what allows the rejection in the first place. Or shall I say "what causes the rejection"? Ergo, Neo is a paragon of what is wrong with the program - the ultimate rebel.

Doubtfull, although possibly techincally possible lol. That the one is not created by the machines does not mean he is unexpected, as the architect himself seems to state. One guess is that the failed matrices simply digressed to fast to manifest an integral anomaly.

Further more, it cannot be known if those matrices even created an anomaly, let alone an integral anomaly, as the solution was in theory perfect, and not flawed. The problem was the imperfect humans not accepting the programing. The architect keeps trying to figure out how to create a perfect solution, then the Oracle probably looks at this and says can't you see that choice exists, and that to have any kind of program that funtions at all, you needed to account for this. This compromise of sorts creates the matrix we see in the films, one that functions but as a consequence of it's imperfect solution (allowing for choice in the programing) an anomaly is created that if left unchecked, will eventually threaten the system itself.

I want to address this whole issue of "allowing for choice" concept I keep hearing about. Nowhere will you hear that the latest version of the Matrix is different because it allows for choice. They ALL allowed for choice. People made all kinds of choices in EVERY version of the Matrix, including the choice to reject them. So in that respect, nothing has changed.

The Matrix still reacts negatively to people who reject it. When 100% of the people reject it, it crashes quickly. When 1% of the people reject it, it crashes slowly. The Matrix has never been set up to be able to handle anyone rejecting it, ever.

The Oracle didn't create a version of the Matrix that allows for choice, she simply used her knowledge of human psychology to trick humanity into deceiving themselves into making the desired choice on their own. It's like the analogy I gave before with the dictatorship and the voting booth. It's still a dictatorship, the only difference is the presence of a voting booth. The booth gives people the false impression that the world is under their control, so they sit back, relax and become complacent. Other than that, nothing else has changed. The system still flubs up when somebody rejects it, just like it always has.

The programming of the Matrix did not change one iota. A small addition was made, and that was to put a mental voting booth in people's subconscious minds. The presence of the voting booth gives people the subconscious option to accept their world. If people are presented with the option to deceive themselves, they'll gladly take it. It's only when there's no voting booth at all do they become irate and rise up. The Oracle essentially handed humanity a gun with which it blows its own brains out.

I'd also like to point out that if the expected outcome is 100% acceptance of the Matrix, then ANY rejection of the Matrix is considered an anomaly, even if it's a TOTAL rejection by the entire population. The anomaly is not called an anomaly only when the rejection happens by a select few. The number of people rejecting the Matrix has the same effect, it only differs in how quickly the effects take place. That means that the failed versions of the Matrix had anomalies in them, just like the latest version. And if you believe that the One arises naturally as a direct result of a growing anomaly (which I don't), then you would also have to believe that there were Ones in the failed versions--or at least, the conditions are there for a One to appear (as pointed out, the versions may have been shut down before a One could appear).

I disagree, the architect quite clearly states that the first matrix was perfect, and a mathematical marvel of sorts. It does not sound like a program that accepts an imperfect solution that creates an anomaly. He also says he now thinks the anwser alluded him because his mind is more bound by the parameters of perfection. Their is no anomaly in perfection, it either is perfect, or it is not. The problem was the imperfection in the humans. Thus he is frustrated by failure.

Then we get to the architect and choice...
"That man can't see past any choice."
"Why not?"
"He doesn't understand them, he can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved and countered. That's his purpose, to balance the equation."

Does this sound like a man who can create a program that can manage choice at all? The only reason he seems to aknowledge that choice exists at all is because he hasn't been able to eliminate it or get around it (and his ego is not so big as to think choice doesn't exist despite his failures, as the Merovingian seems to be). The matrix changed once the Oracle was on the team, and how choice is dealt with seems to be the underlying motivation of that change. "allowing choice" was a poor choice of words on my part, however since i have many times argued that choice always existed, i thought it might fly. What I meant was that the matrix program itself now allowed an imperfect (or unpredictable) anwser to function. The anwser involved creating a matrix that most people would accept, and then allowing choice, and thus rejection of the matrix, to exist as a solution that functioned with the matrix's programming.

The expected outcome is always 100%, but presenting choice and allowing the solution to function (even if undesirable) is not something a matrix based on perfection would do. My guess is that if you rejected the programming of one of the early matrices, that you most likely woke up in the most literal sense of that word, in your pod. Which may or may not elude to Smith's speech to Morpheous in M1. I'm guessing having people do that might have adverse effects on anyone around who witnessed such an event. In this current version (during the films, no mxo) if you reject the programming you don't go anywhere right away (with the notable exception of "the kid"). Zion is their to catch alot of those people, but some probably just stay in the matrix, living out their lives as paranoid outsiders who most people consider crazy or odd. The anwser functions, however not without consequences.

I don't think it has anything to do with presenting an option to decieve themselves, since any matrix is trying to do this by design. And the bigger problem is that the voting booth doesn't even exist in your concoius thought, you have to become aware of the voting booth itself and the alternative it allows before you can realize you have any choice to make at all. Thus those who are happy living out their lives... oblivious, just accept the programming by default. (Homer start's chanting "Default! default! default!"... sorry random simpsons tangent). Taking away the voting booth doesn't get anyone mad, as most of them never knew it existed in the first place, and those who did, aren't going to accept the anwser just because everyone else does so thay are basically still doing the same thing. The voting booth is choice, and it exists, can't be taken away, and when you are of the mind that it can be solved, then you don't account for rejection, or allow your program to allow such an anwser to function, because that isn't the "right" anwser. Allowing such an anwser to function is obviously going to lead to problems, however trying to get everyone to choose the "right" anwser has failed, so the only workable solution is to allow the imperfect anwser to function, and exercise your measure of control (see zion, path of the one).

Of course I could be wrong and the anomaly could have existed in every matrix... perhaps it simply wasn't discovered untill the Oracle said hey... you got this problem here... lol.

Hex, I really hope you don’t think I’m picking on you about this particular subject. To be honest with you, I simply feel like I’m not explaining myself well, and I keep trying to outdo myself. If you’re tired of hearing my attempts, just let me know and I’ll shut up. But until then, marvel at how much crap I typed!

hexediter wrote:

I disagree, the architect quite clearly states that the first matrix was perfect, and a mathematical marvel of sorts.

Remember, this is all from the Architect’s standpoint. He has a certain degree of denial if he believes that a complete failure was perfect. Let’s say my goal was to make the perfect sandwich for you. I go about assembling all the ingredients that I believe you will absolutely love and be completely unable to resist. When I’m done I pat myself on the back for my sandwich-making genius. I hand it over to you on a nice, clean plate with a huge grin on my face. I can’t wait to hear the praise and adoration that is sure to follow your first bite. You lean forward and sniff the sandwich a couple times. With a sudden outburst of rage, you grab the sandwich and hurl it against the wall, where it explodes into multicolored sandwich confetti upon impact. As you storm out of the room without saying a word, I stand there slack jawed—totally and utterly confused. Why had you reacted that way? I had, after all, made the Perfect Hexediter Sandwich—one which you would be unable to resist. Obviously, the problem couldn’t have been with the sandwich I made. The sandwich was perfect, sublime…flawless. Therefore, the problem must lie with you.

Can you see how ridiculous that kind of thinking is? If you didn’t like the sandwich I made you, the problem is with me, not you.

Continuing with the sandwich analogy, let’s say I tried making you another sandwich, but this time with different ingredients. Again, I meet with the same result (and now have two glorious sandwich stains on the wall). In a state of utter helplessness, I turn to Doctor Phil for help. Doctor Phil, who is an expert at human psychology, tells me that the problem isn’t so much the ingredients I’m choosing as it is the fact that I’m only offering one type of food item to you. He says I should offer you several choices to increase my chances of finding something that you like. Then I tell him I only have sandwich ingredients and can’t make you anything else. I might be able to change some of the ingredients around, but it’s still going to be a sandwich.

Doctor Phil thinks for a moment, then says, “You know what you have to do? You need to make Hexediter believe that your sandwich is the best option he’s got. You need to make him believe that the very thing that he used to hurl against the wall in a fit of rage is actually exactly what he wants. You have to help him choose it for himself.”

“How do I do that?” I ask.

“Simple. Tell him that he can either have your delicious sandwich or lick the dust bunnies off the floor.”

“Excuse me?”

“You heard me. When he sees that your sandwich is so much better than licking the floor, he’ll gladly choose your sandwich.”

“The same sandwich he previously threw against the wall?”

“The same.”

“Same ingredients, even?”

“Well, what’d you use before?”

“Peanut butter and styrofoam.”

“Hmm…you might want to leave out the styrofoam. But yeah, other than that you should be good to go.”

And lo and behold, Doctor Phil was right! I still only made one item for you, and it was still a sandwich, but when you realized that your other option was much less palatable, you grabbed the sandwich and eagerly wolfed it down. Mission accomplished. Like the sandwich, the Matrix never changed. What changed was people’s perception of the Matrix. It’s still the same old virtual reality program it was before (with perhaps some cosmetic changes), but it still works just like it did when it was a monumental failure. The thing that makes or breaks the success of the Matrix is not in its programming, but in whether or not people accept it. If you can get people to accept it, then you don’t have to change a thing.

hexediter wrote:

It does not sound like a program that accepts an imperfect solution that creates an anomaly. He also says he now thinks the anwser alluded him because his mind is more bound by the parameters of perfection. Their is no anomaly in perfection, it either is perfect, or it is not. The problem was the imperfection in the humans. Thus he is frustrated by failure.

Again, keep in mind that the “perfection” of which the Architect speaks is based on his own opinion of what perfection is. The Architect’s idea of perfection is a balanced equation, no more no less. He is the last person who is capable of creating a paradise for humans, which is exactly why he failed. It was NOT perfect, and therefore it failed. It was not suited to its test subjects. He can argue about faulty test subjects all he wants, but the fact remains that he does not understand his own test subjects—thus the reason for the failure. You point this out in the next quote you make:

hexediter wrote:

Then we get to the architect and choice... "That man can't see past any choice." "Why not?" "He doesn't understand them, he can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved and countered. That's his purpose, to balance the equation." Does this sound like a man who can create a program that can manage choice at all?

Nope, it sure doesn’t.

hexediter wrote:

The only reason he seems to aknowledge that choice exists at all is because he hasn't been able to eliminate it or get around it (and his ego is not so big as to think choice doesn't exist despite his failures, as the Merovingian seems to be).

He never had a problem knowing that choices exist. He knows that they do, even if his definition of a choice is a bit…robotic. “To him they are variables in an equation.” That’s technically what a choice is: a variable. Yes or no. Up or down. Right or left. These are all choices, and he understands that they are. What he does NOT understand is WHY the humans keep making the choice to REJECT HIS MATRIX. Why, when he had created a paradise for them, did they reject it? It was sublime, after all! Flawless! What the @#!$% is wrong with these wretched humans? Remember, the Oracle’s version of the Matrix wasn’t successful because she was better able to define human existence. It was successful because she told them they had options, and that living inside the Matrix was their best option. These options are given to humans on a subconscious level, they make their choice, then they go on about their life feeling “right as rain” and “believing whatever they want to believe.” The Oracle understood that humans don’t want a DIFFERENT Matrix, they just want to feel like they were the ones who CHOSE the Matrix that already existed.

hexediter wrote:

The matrix changed once the Oracle was on the team, and how choice is dealt with seems to be the underlying motivation of that change. "allowing choice" was a poor choice of words on my part, however since i have many times argued that choice always existed, i thought it might fly. What I meant was that the matrix program itself now allowed an imperfect (or unpredictable) anwser to function. The anwser involved creating a matrix that most people would accept, and then allowing choice, and thus rejection of the matrix, to exist as a solution that functioned with the matrix's programming.

Again, there was no change made to the programming of the Matrix. The sandwich is still a sandwich. Some of the ingredients have changed (versions resembling 1999, feudal Japan, heaven, hell, etc.), but it’s still a sandwich. It’s always been a virtual reality program that can’t handle rejection, and it still is to this day—even in the Matrix Online game. The imperfect part—the part that annoys the crap out of the Architect—are the people who still reject the Matrix. There was no new programming introduced involving choice—the only change is in how people perceive their choices. They had the same options before, to accept or reject. But now the Oracle is beating them to the punch and presenting the options to them before they even begin to question things. Instead of people feeling trapped in a dream who fight to get out, now you have docile worker bees who believe they’ve chosen to stay. It’s all in the packaging, my man. In essence, the Oracle sold humanity a piece of blue sky.

hexediter wrote:

The expected outcome is always 100%, but presenting choice and allowing the solution to function (even if undesirable) is not something a matrix based on perfection would do.

The Matrix based on perfection did NOT present a choice to people. That’s the problem. People had the ABILITY to choose, but the system did not present them with other options. It simply assumed that they would all love it. When people started rejecting it, it came as a complete surprise to the Architect. But as far as a solution to this dilemma, the Architect focuses more on whether or not a choice was given to people, not so much on whether or not they created a realistic or believable world. Making it realistic and believable helped, but without presenting people with the unconscious option to accept or reject it, even a realistic and believable Matrix would have failed. The whole point that the Wachowski Brothers are trying to make is not that people are duped because the virtual reality world LOOKS real (who could blame people for that), but that they CHOSE it and ACCEPTED it DESPITE THE FACT that they unconsciously knew it was fake.

hexediter wrote:

My guess is that if you rejected the programming of one of the early matrices, that you most likely woke up in the most literal sense of that word, in your pod. Which may or may not elude to Smith's speech to Morpheous in M1. I'm guessing having people do that might have adverse effects on anyone around who witnessed such an event. In this current version (during the films, no mxo) if you reject the programming you don't go anywhere right away (with the notable exception of "the kid"). Zion is their to catch alot of those people, but some probably just stay in the matrix, living out their lives as paranoid outsiders who most people consider crazy or odd. The anwser functions, however not without consequences.

My guess is that rejection worked the same way as it does now, except there were no Zion ships there to pull your bald ass out of the muck. Ergo, many crops were lost. But I believe it was just as hard to awaken then as it was for the Kid or the athlete from the Animatrix. But that’s just my guess.

hexediter wrote:

I don't think it has anything to do with presenting an option to decieve themselves, since any matrix is trying to do this by design.

No, they’re not. By design, the Matrix is simply a virtual reality program. It’s not trying to do anything other than function as a big digital world for your little digital RSI to run around in. By nature, it doesn’t present you with options, it only presents you with itself. There is an assumption that you’ll accept it, and if you don’t then you’re an anomaly by the definition of the system and fluctuations in the program are the result. The Oracle understood that the option to choose had to be presented to humanity for the deception to be complete. The Architect could make the Matrix as pretty, ugly, believable or fake as he wanted, but it all comes to down to whether or not humanity feels like it has the bottom line option of choosing or rejecting. Once they felt that THEY had chosen to stay, they shut up and stayed put. Now, only the most intuitive and/or rebellious people reject the Matrix.

hexediter wrote:

And the bigger problem is that the voting booth doesn't even exist in your concoius thought, you have to become aware of the voting booth itself and the alternative it allows before you can realize you have any choice to make at all.

No, that’s why I say it’s presented to them. They don’t have to find it, it’s presented to them on an unconscious level. And because it’s presented to them, the Oracle can ensure that they know their options possibly before they even care whether or not there are any. When they’re already happy and accepting of everything around them, they're presented with the truth. If they take the cookie, or the blue pill, or whatever, then they can wake up continuing to feel happy in their safe little world. The person accepts it and moves on with their life—blissfully unaware of reality…BY CHOICE.

hexediter wrote:

Thus those who are happy living out their lives... oblivious, just accept the programming by default. (Homer start's chanting "Default! default! default!"... sorry random simpsons tangent). Taking away the voting booth doesn't get anyone mad, as most of them never knew it existed in the first place, and those who did, aren't going to accept the anwser just because everyone else does so thay are basically still doing the same thing.

Remember, NO ONE would EVER accept the Matrix unless they were given the choice to accept it. That is the key to the whole thing. No one, if left to their own devices inside the Matrix, would accept it forever. They might for a short time, but eventually they would begin to feel like it was a dream and try to wake up from it. Somehow the human mind knows the difference between the REAL world and the DIGITAL copy. This is unavoidable. That’s why the first Matrices failed. Even in the 1999 version, people would begin trying to wake up from it. What’s different is that before they even start questioning things, the options are presented unconsciously to them. I know I’m being a total broken record here, but I don’t know how else to say it.

hexediter wrote:

The voting booth is choice, and it exists, can't be taken away,

The voting booth is not choice. The choice was already there before the voting booth was presented. Humans always had the option to accept or reject, and they exercised both options—first they accepted it for a short time, then they rejected it. The voting booth (to quote the Merovingian) “is an illusion created between those with power and those without.” It is a symbol presented to the powerless in order to deceive them into thinking they have power. They don’t really have any power, even when they make a choice. Because those in power are going to do what they want, regardless of what the masses want. Humanity thinks that they could actually be allowed out of the Matrix if they reject it, but they won’t. It’s only because of the necessity of allowing Zion to exist that the Architect enabled awakened humans to be rescued from their pods. But if you present people with fake options, you can coerce them into making the decision you originally wanted them to AND have them feel like they chose it all by themselves. Those in power stay in power, and the powerless stay ignorant.

hexediter wrote:

and when you are of the mind that it can be solved, then you don't account for rejection, or allow your program to allow such an anwser to function, because that isn't the "right" anwser.

No version of the Matrix has ever been able to account for rejection. The best that the Architect can do is to either shut everything down (the failed Matrices), or reload the Matrix once the One has temporarily brought the Matrix to 100% acceptance. The problem is always the same (people rejecting the Matrix), and the Oracle only succeeded in drastically slowing the process down (1% rejection rate instead of 100% rejection).

hexediter wrote:

Allowing such an anwser to function is obviously going to lead to problems, however trying to get everyone to choose the "right" anwser has failed, so the only workable solution is to allow the imperfect anwser to function, and exercise your measure of control (see zion, path of the one).

Yes, this does seem to be the best that the Architect could hope for at this point. Hopefully someday everyone can see things like the Oracle does, and work together toward the future.

hexediter wrote:

Of course I could be wrong and the anomaly could have existed in every matrix... perhaps it simply wasn't discovered untill the Oracle said hey... you got this problem here... lol.

The “anomaly” refers to people rejecting the system, so you bet it was in every version.

this is part of the problem, when the architecht is saying perfect, he means mathematiclly perfect, everything is solved, no flawed anwsers which he said create the systemic anomaly, thus by his definition, the anomaly is not choice, it is rather created by choice and further more, it is created by this flawed solution which by allowing choice to function (in the programming) has created. Any other definition is inferred, where as this one he says it straight out, while this anwser functioned it was obvoiusly fundamentally flawed, thus creating the contradictory systemic anomaly.

Comparing food to a very complex computer program is not an even comparison, and trust me, the matrix did change, the people in the matrix certainly didn't change. I'm not sure you can argue it wasn't perfect... especially on the merits that the architect is the last one who would be able to build such a place, as this guy operates on the idea of perfection, on knowing all variables and creating the perfect solution. His purpose, makes him the ideal person to create a perfect solution, the problem with perfection is that often it isn't practical, and humans being the irrational beings that we are, obvoiusly had a problem with it. You have a choice of blaming the avg humanbeing, or a guy who is smarter then anyone who has ever lived on this planet by an exponential level. To him... choice, or free will, and the way we exercise it is the inherent imperfection. I suggest to you that it was perfect, and therefore it failed... as weird as that sounds. It's like the yogi bera quote, if the world was perfect it wouldn't be. Notice also that this perfect world failed miserably... you would think at least some portion of the population would accept the programming. That either tells you the architect is the worst person possible to build a world for the humans (which was his purpose and design) or their was something about humans which didn't fly with perfection. I know we all like to hate on the old white man, but I think you have to strongly consider that the reason the perfect world didn't work wasn't because it wasn't perfect, but because we define our reality by many things which simply don't exist in a perfect world. Which include struggle, strife, pain, and suffering.

I don't know how you can say someone unconcoiusly know's it's fake, as this really is not knowing it's fake. Infact if your subconcious is telling you it's fake, you are probably a future red pill candidate. People were always, conciously or unconciously, accepting or rejecting the programming. Like i said, the voting booth always existed, the difference is the votes now function even if they aren't compliant with the program.

To get out of the matrix, everyone needed help in doing so, (pills, hacking) and I think their is a reason for this. This is because just saying no doesn't pop you out anymore. You don't just wake up, as Smith suggested happened in the first matrix.

A virtual world is by design trying to make you think it is real (which is deception), I don't know how you can argue differently, and your points oddly reinforce this point. I agree it doesn't present you with options, but humanity always had the bottem line option of choosing, because rejecting is choosing, and the option to reject obviously leaves the option to accept. So if this is constant, something else had to change... the matrix changed.

If you are entirely unaware of a choice, at a concoius level... it's not a choice in the way most people understand it. I mean how do you go to that voting box and choose when you don't even know it exists. You are choosing from one thing and it is given to you by default, and because you happen to like or accept that one thing, you never get to the choice part at all. The potential for choice is their, but they don't give it to you, you have to discover it. Most people never got a blue or red pill, or a cookie, as getting even that far requires you to realize that something isn't quite right. Then, once you get that far, you can choose, and even then... some people still choose to accept it, the cyphers of the world.

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Remember, NO ONE would EVER accept the Matrix unless they were given the choice to accept it.

that doesn't make sense, and it is illogical. How could they not have a choice to accept it if they are rejecting it by choice. Furthermore, who would create a matrix in which they never gave people the option to accept the programming... this is given by default logically.

Quote:

The voting booth is not choice. The choice was already there before the voting booth was presented. Humans always had the option to accept or reject

Ok, so I say the voting booth is choice, exists, and can't be taken away, and you say that choice was already there (which is what I just said... as I said the voting booth was choice which would make it substitutible for the word choice)... so this leaves the question, what is the voting booth if it isn't choice? An Illusion? Sounds like the merovingian to me.

P.S. I didn't quote you enough, sorry... I hope it is not beyond comprehension as I'm not sure it is easy to follow.

From FeralBoy's posts I gather that -> Rejection of a matrix leads to crashing of it.

The illustration of the voting booth.
But the booth is for 1 time every so often. There must also be a semblance of control over options that occur everyday.

feralboy wrote:

If people are presented with the option to deceive themselves, they'll gladly take it.

Well, who wants trouble? Or to move out of their comfort zones?

feralboy wrote:

The Oracle essentially handed humanity a gun with which it blows its own brains out.

Nah she gave it as a weapon to even the odds. The Arc is the one making them blow their brains out with it.

feralboy wrote:

if the expected outcome is 100% acceptance of the Matrix, then ANY rejection of the Matrix is considered an anomaly, even if it's a TOTAL rejection by the entire population.

Now I'm sorry but I can't agree with that one. An anomaly is something that goes against the norm. If rebellion is en masse, it IS the norm. Rebellion, when it is caused by a minority can be called an anomaly. I'm sorry if I said anything to make you think otherwise.

From Hexediter's posts, I gather that the first matrix was perfect and no anomaly was alloted for.

hexediter wrote:

...when you are of the mind that it can be solved, then you don't account for rejection, or allow your program to allow such an anwser to function, because that isn't the "right" anwser. Allowing such an anwser to function is obviously going to lead to problems, however trying to get everyone to choose the "right" anwser has failed, so the only workable solution is to allow the imperfect anwser to function, and exercise your measure of control (see zion, path of the one).

I think you've nailed the Architect's frustration at failing!

As for FeralBoy's illustration of the sandwich, I think you've nailed the Architect's perspective of why he thought it should have worked!

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Can you see how ridiculous that kind of thinking is? If you didn’t like the sandwich I made you, the problem is with me, not you.

I think you might be overgeneralizing his perspective. Confine this view to what he thought people would accept - a world without suffering. So his perspective raises a valid concern, as one-track-minded as it might be.

You say people's perspective of the matrix is what changed. I agree with Hex's disagreeing. The matrix was changed.

"To him [choices] are variables in an equation..."
To me this is one of the most telling statements that aid in understanding the Architect, his words, and his actions.

"...that must be solved and countered."
Hence the TV's trying to predict Neo's responses, and the purpose they must serve before and after their meeting.

feralboy wrote:

The Oracle understood that humans don’t want a DIFFERENT Matrix, they just want to feel like they were the ones who CHOSE the Matrix that already existed.

I'm going to have to disagree again. What humans want is to follow their own lifestyles and/or have autonomy in choosing from various available ones. It seems in this discussion, we are almost inevitably going to be making some introspective comments on human nature and society today, so I'll get ready.

TO BE CONT'D...

There was no Zion while the previous matrices were running. Those systems crashed and probably killed everyone connected to them at the time.

I guess it comes down to the nature of "the choice" that the Arc speaks of.

One more thing before I conclude:

You notice in MxO that while "human rejection of the simulation" (anomaly) has been factored in, the Arc was still significantly concerned about the presence of "the integral anomaly" inside the matrix. What do you think this means?

I've re-read the thread a few times, but haven't had anything new to add yet.

As for the presence of the integral anomaly inside the matrix... I would take it to mean Neo being litteraly disseminated into the source and essentially becoming the "holy ghost". He is everywhere and nowhere, as the source itself empowers the matrix. In other words... perhaps the dissemination of the code wasn't temporary this time... could also be a factor in the failed re-insertion of the prime program. Time will tell.

You have nothing new to add? Whaaaaat?

Okay then, sum up your stance in the matter.

Was there a One in the failed versions?
What was the choice that was given to test subjects?
How was the first matrix perfect, in your opinion?

intell wrote:

From FeralBoy's posts I gather that -> Rejection of a matrix leads to crashing of it.

You gathered correctly. It wasn't that the Architect couldn't describe a perfect world--that was only the beginning of the problem. The real problem is that people rejected it. If people had accepted it, then it wouldn't have crashed.

intell wrote:

The illustration of the voting booth. But the booth is for 1 time every so often. There must also be a semblance of control over options that occur everyday.

I disagree. I've seen this viewpoint from a few different people, and to be honest I don't see the need for it. The only person for whom there existed a certain degree of control over his choices was the One--hence, the Path of the One. There's not a path for every single person. That's what the agents are for. When someone starts leaning in an unacceptable direction, the agents zoom in and crack some heads. As the Oracle probably knew, it's best to leave options open and people will just "live out their lives, oblivious" all by themselves.

intell wrote:

feralboy wrote: if the expected outcome is 100% acceptance of the Matrix, then ANY rejection of the Matrix is considered an anomaly, even if it's a TOTAL rejection by the entire population. Now I'm sorry but I can't agree with that one. An anomaly is something that goes against the norm. If rebellion is en masse, it IS the norm. Rebellion, when it is caused by a minority can be called an anomaly. I'm sorry if I said anything to make you think otherwise.

I knew I should have explained that one further. Here's my reasoning for that one: you have to look at it from the Architect's point of view. The normal thing would have been for people to accept it--at least, according to the Architect's thinking. Therefore, if someone does NOT accept it, it's an anomaly. And from the Architect's standpoint--thinking he's created a perfect world--it doesn't matter if 1% or 50% or 100% of the population rejects it--it's still an anomaly. I agree with you about the accepted definition of the word, so don't get me wrong about that. I'm just saying that when it comes to the acceptance of the Matrix, the Architect's viewpoint has always been very slanted. But as you said, from a purely technical definition of the word "anomaly" it does relate more to a minority--since the norm is always defined by the majority. But the Architect seems to start from the assumption that the Matrix is perfect, and therefore total acceptance would be the norm. He's not going to let a little thing like the actual facts of the matter get in his way.

intell wrote:

From Hexediter's posts, I gather that the first matrix was perfect and no anomaly was alloted for. hexediter wrote: ...when you are of the mind that it can be solved, then you don't account for rejection, or allow your program to allow such an anwser to function, because that isn't the "right" anwser. Allowing such an anwser to function is obviously going to lead to problems, however trying to get everyone to choose the "right" anwser has failed, so the only workable solution is to allow the imperfect anwser to function, and exercise your measure of control (see zion, path of the one).

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand this viewpoint. It's not that I don't agree with it, I just simply don't get it. Could you come up with an analogy or something? What does it mean that the anomaly was not alloted for? Perhaps the problem is the way I look at the anomaly. Rejecting the Matrix is anomalous behavior, and leads to fluctuations in the programming. This was true in the early Matrices as well as the current one.

intell wrote:

You say people's perspective of the matrix is what changed. I agree with Hex's disagreeing. The matrix was changed.

What's your reason for believing it was changed? The Architect states that the reason the Oracle's version worked where his didn't was because people were given a choice. To me that doesn't speak at all to a change in programming, but rather in how the programming is presented.

intell wrote:

feralboy wrote: The Oracle understood that humans don’t want a DIFFERENT Matrix, they just want to feel like they were the ones who CHOSE the Matrix that already existed. I'm going to have to disagree again. What humans want is to follow their own lifestyles and/or have autonomy in choosing from various available ones.

I don't see how what you said is a disagreement. I'm saying that the Oracle understood that humans want the perception of autonomy, which seems to be what you're saying as well. The whole problem with the first Matrices is that the one option that mattered the most--whether to accept or reject the Matrix--wasn't presented to humanity. As a result, humanity rebelled. But if the choice is presented, then humanity says "thank you, I'll accept this dreamworld you've created for me," and goes about its business.

For the stuff you don't understand... well... it is sort of compliex logic so it takes a little bit to get your head around it. I'll try going over it and then see if an analogy hits me.

First, one of the premise's here is that the first matrices didn't create an anomaly, so even if you don't think it's true, just say ok, given that this is true... (blah blah blah). The next part has to due with the nature of the architect, perfection, and the flawed solution. Assume the first matrix is perfect, and to go along with this it did not have a flawed anwser... (because it was perfect) meaning that choice wasn't accounted for at all by the program. You reject it, you leave the matrix, you wake up. This is the inherent problem with this perfect matrix, it's horrible at keeping people in the matrix, which is the whole point of the matrix, because people keep waking up from it. Their are two possible reasons for this, one being that the design of the matrix itself was to blame (because humans weren't designed for a perfect world). Thus the redesign... The second reason being that when people reject the program, because that anwser doesn't jive with the perfect nature of the matrix, they simply get booted. This has the possible side effect of having lots of people just dissapear from the simulation, which only encourages those inside to reject it also... since this doesn't do much to add to the realism.

The problem is choice, and if you really want to think about it, choice on more then one level. They have choices to make about their life, and their is the deeper choice to accept or reject their reality. By the way, everything in their reality is training them, molding them, to become interwoven members of this reality. This leads to the people who will fight to protect it (not unlike the people who fight against gay marriage for example, or support the occupation of other countries lol). To me... the difference is you can have a guy in the current matrix (from the films not mxo) who rejects the programing on some level of conciousness... well this doesn't do anything to him now. He just stays where he is and starts looking for anwsers. Now this isn't stated in the movie, and is my opinion, but I don't find it far off... To me, most people are not aware that a choice exists, and even many of those who are, still choose the matrix anyway. All of these people will reject or accept the program regardless of whether the option is given to them by the matrix however, and infact the matrix really doesn't give the option, it just deals with the results as choice always existed. And the problem, as you rightly point out many times, is that rejection result, and that it is part of the functioning equation, or solution to the matrix, and it is flawed. In the perfect matrix... they just throw it out, since it wasn't perfect. But now it functions, and over time, it starts creating problems.

I feel really redundant but I hope this helped...

In short, allowing the flawed anwser to function is what creates the systemic anomaly. The reason this is the plan they are using is because the perfect anwser simply did not function for very long at all. Sure their is no anomaly... but who cares when the whole thing goes down rather quickly?


As for the matrix changing... it has to have changed, any choice given must be inherent to the programing of the matrix, especially if the anwser (however flawed) allows the program to continue to function. A change in how a program is presented is a change in the programming, furthermore, the presentation is really not that different at all and possibly the same as it was before. The difference is that the program is now acctually accounting for this choice, and accepting the result. The matrix had to be re-programmed to deal with this, cause when it wasn't, well... it was failing.


Intell...
Was there a One in the failed matrices?

I would say no, but I can't be certain so I will say it is doubtfull, or not probable.

What was the choice that was given to the test subjects?

good question... to give people a choice you usually have to phrase a question... and as for the question. You must discover it for yourself... what is the matrix? The choice is given by the program to deal with those who discover the choice, and moreover those who reject the program. The program itself never asks you... do you think this is real? The program instead tries to define reality, and you choose to accept or reject it. Of course if you do reject the program, this usually requires you to have discovered the choice which most people aren't even aware exists, because they readily choose to accept the program. The idea of rejecting it is somethiing their subconcious might have bounced around for 2 minutes and then they remembered that they like living in their reality and stuffed that feeling back in the deep chambers of their brain never to awaken again.

In other words... the choice is given because whether the program gives the choice or does not, humans will still choose regardless. And if you didn't give the choice, then the anwser doesn't fit in your program in anyway whatsoever. How does a program take input from a choice it has not already prepared to deal with? It can't. Doesn't function... person wakes up.

How was the first matrix perfect?
It was perfect in design and solution. It gave a world without suffering for everyone to live in. I think Smith is right to a certain extent, we need suffering and struggle to define our reality. It is the yin-yang of life, one does not exist without the other. Honestly... with no suffering... you'd have people poking themselves with needles just to remember what pain felt like... and not just the masochists of the world. Then their is the other problem of removed competition. Humans are (in my opinion) very competitive, and copetition has winners and losers. Someone has to suffer... and even those who do great things offten have to suffer failures many times before they get it right... (not unlike the architect). Unfortunatly, we as a race are not all enlightened enough to live in harmony with each other without suffering, nor do we even seem to be designed to so in the world in which we live. It's not that we want anarchy and suffering everywhere, it's that a world with no suffering could only be the result of a species that is more advanced then we are today.

Here's hoping we make it that far eh?

Hex, I think I understand your viewpoint now. And having thought it through I can see where I’ve made some assumptions upon which I’ve based my opinions. But first let me see if I understood you correctly.

The Paradise Matrix was very open. You could stay in it if you wanted or leave whenever you wanted. If you rejected it, you immediately woke up. Even though you didn’t mention it, I just now realized that if this was the case, it’s possible that the Machines could wipe the person’s memory and reinsert them into the Matrix. But even if that were true, the fact that humans aren’t meant for paradise in their present state (as you pointed out), they would have to memory-wipe and reinsert at a frantic pace due to the insane amounts of people waking up all the time.

Still staying with your idea, the Hell Matrix was probably just as open. The Architect didn’t change that part, since he was probably thinking that if he changed the environment, people would choose to stay instead of choosing to wake up. But he was wrong, and people woke up just like they did before.

Along comes the Oracle and realizes that the answer is to put a restriction on the Matrix and not have it be so open. Instead of immediately waking up, you have to be helped from someone on the outside in the Real. They have to give your RSI a red pill, which will trace the location of your physical body and also rejoin your mind with your body. A select few, through sheer focus of will and the power of their mind, can wake themselves up—but only a tiny minority can accomplish this.

The problem with making the Matrix more of a closed system is that if you don’t let people wake up when they reject the Matrix, then it creates a glitch. This glitch has two effects, one on the system and one on the person making the rejection. The program begins to have fluctuations in even the simplest equations, and the person begins to have a splinter in the mind. Even if the person is later removed from the Matrix, the fluctuations remain. Eventually, these fluctuations will need to be taken care of by reloading the Matrix. But before that, the integral anomaly must return to the Source where it can be disseminated.

Well, how’d I do? Did I understand you correctly? If I did, I just have one question. In your thinking, why did only 1% of the population reject the Oracle's Matrix instead of 100%? What made nearly 99% of the population so happy with it when they rejected it before?

Oh, and by the way, remind me to mention what my assumptions were after you make your post. I'm curious as to what you'll think of them.

Quote:

The Paradise Matrix was very open. You could stay in it if you wanted or leave whenever you wanted. If you rejected it, you immediately woke up. Even though you didn’t mention it, I just now realized that if this was the case, it’s possible that the Machines could wipe the person’s memory and reinsert them into the Matrix. But even if that were true, the fact that humans aren’t meant for paradise in their present state (as you pointed out), they would have to memory-wipe and reinsert at a frantic pace due to the insane amounts of people waking up all the time.

I guess you could say open, it really was just unequipped and not prepared to handle human choice, and even if it did present the choice that the Oracle proposed, it probably would have very quickly created a big anomaly very quickly since you have alot more then 1% thinking their is something wrong with reality.

I thought about wiping memory, but my guess is it might be harder to wipe if they have actually woken up in the pod. That is a pretty truamatic experience, that quite possibly no amount of brain tamporing could remove entirely. Then their is the other problem of giving them the memories they are supposed to have back... otherwise they will be some random person who doesn't know who they are and won't know their own loved ones. Anyways, I'm sure it's possible on a small scale... like say the occasional cypher who want's back in... but on a large scale, it seems to have been unmanigable.

Quote:

Along comes the Oracle and realizes that the answer is to put a restriction on the Matrix and not have it be so open. Instead of immediately waking up, you have to be helped from someone on the outside in the Real. They have to give your RSI a red pill, which will trace the location of your physical body and also rejoin your mind with your body. A select few, through sheer focus of will and the power of their mind, can wake themselves up—but only a tiny minority can accomplish this.

Again... it's not restrictive so much as proactive. The choice is given by the program so that the anwser can function even when it isn't the "right" anwser. In sense of escapability it would be more restrictive, but in the sense of choice, it would be no more or less restrictive then any other matrix. In a sense it is less restricive, since you can now choose to reject the program and still wonder around inside of it. It is allowing this to funtion that creates the anomaly, which will eventually cause system failure ect. As for the splinter... I don't think any anomaly creates that... rather that is something inherent to many individuals who reject the programming. These people who sense on some deep level that something isn't right... end up being more likely to reject the program... which then creates the anomaly. It would be weird if this then created the splinter, because many need that splinter to choose to reject in the first place.

Quote:

In your thinking, why did only 1% of the population reject the Oracle's Matrix instead of 100%? What made nearly 99% of the population so happy with it when they rejected it before?

well, it's a combination of things. One would be that people aren't suddenly waking up and dissapearing. Another reason is the matrix design itself lends itself towards a higher percent of acceptance to begin with as it is more balanced and reflects the world we came from which most of us accept as the real world lol. It's basically the natural evolution of the architect design... a more realistic world, combined with the Oracle saying... hey choice... you need to deal with it... otherwise it won't matter what kind of matrix you make.

Hex, what you’re saying is making more and more sense. The first two Matrices not only didn’t define “normal” human existence (since it went to both extremes instead of the middle ground), but they weren’t able to contain those who rejected it. As soon as someone rejected them, their minds rejoined with their bodies and they woke up. Consequently, in the Matrix their RSI disappears, causing witnesses to also begin to doubt the validity of the world they inhabit. And so on and so forth until you have lots and lots of people rejecting the Matrix and waking up.

So the Oracle fixed the first problem by making the simulation more realistic, and based it on actual human history. But there was still 1% of the population that rejected it, usually because of a high degree of intuition they possessed, which told them that there was something wrong with their world. This intuition is the splinter in the mind that leads them to an eventual rejection of the system. Upon rejection, they would wake up and their RSI’s would disappear from the Matrix.

Although this was a much smaller number of rejections than before, it was still not acceptable to have ANYONE disappearing from the Matrix. Therefore, the Oracle changed the programming of the Matrix to allow people to stay in the Matrix even though they had rejected it. Unfortunately, even though this kept their RSI from disappearing, it created a glitch, which over time would eventually cause the system to crash. The Path of the One was created to guide the integral anomaly on its way to the Source, where it would be disseminated, the Matrix reloaded, and the cycle started over again.

How’s that for a summary?

Feral Boy wrote:

The first two Matrices not only didn’t define “normal” human existence (since it went to both extremes instead of the middle ground), but they weren’t able to contain those who rejected it.

The reason this is true is because of the difficulty in defining "normal" human existence. You always have those who will go contrary, transgress, or however you want to put it. And this, in spite of whatever type of lifestyle/culture is represented in the matrix version.

Somebody asked for an illustration. Let me borrow one from RainKing.

The matrix is like a set of multiple choice questions.

The First matrix is like if the questions only had an A option to choose from. Its mathematically perfect, there's no room for "error". After all there's no suffering, right? So who should want to deviate from this? But think for a minute about what rules have to be in place to prevent humans from bringing even accidental harm to each other. Whoa!

The second matrix is when you shift all the answers to B. It is still only a one-answer-possible scenario.

The third matrix has more options to choose from but still puts you in the realm of what can be accounted for. Have you ever come accross a multiple choice question that none of the answers seem to fit? Well guess what, you are then like the anomaly. 1% of those in the matrix also have this "splinter" in their mind that things are not quite right. The unusually common presence of the colour green was added to give a visual cue to give the audience the same feeling. The rejection of the matrix comes as a result of being unsatisfied with it but then as Inev would tell you there also has to be an intuitive link to the fact that there are other options (cough, Zion, cough, cough) or else one would have no choice but to just go with the proverbial flow.

Feral Boy wrote:

The first two Matrices not only didn’t define “normal” human existence (since it went to both extremes instead of the middle ground)

Precisely and adequately put.

The matrix being redesigned to 1999 American society is a very telling commentary on the W's view of the world today. This society has pretty much something for everybody, regardless of tastes. So - more options. And it at least pays lip service to the idea of respect for individuality and "pursuit of happiness".

THE ARCHITECT's perspective:

"The problem is choice."
"He doesn't understand them. He can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time, each variable must be solved and countered."
"...unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix."
"Please. As I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice..."

The matrix was not designed to be compatible to human choice until the third one. As to why I say that there was no anomaly until then, I get it from his own words:

"While this answer functioned it...creat[ed] the otherwise contradictory anomaly..."

Until then, human choice was never taken into consideration. This parallels older societies which endeavored to make all its members conform to some standard either a lofty one ("perfection") or one more in line with mundane thinking ("grotesque"). Freer societies don't exist because the ruling has become more humane or righteous, they realise that in order to make controling the masses easier, these must be allowed to pursue their own pleasures even if these are pretty much just manufactured and served to them ("...solved and countered") Which brings us to:

THE MEROVINGIAN's perspective:

"Choice is an illusion created between those with power and zose without...there is only one universal constant, it is the only real truse - Causality."

So choices are variables and causes are constants, eh? All right.

In the multiple choice third matrix, the choices are still obviously not unlimited, hence the anomaly. So the choices that it accounts for still lead to acceptance of a simulation. And even the anomaly is "not beyond a measure of control (the path of the One) which has lead you inexorably...here." So it's all about being at least a step ahead of the people making choices and thus maintaining control/power. And this brings us to:

THE ORACLE's perspective:

"...already made the choice, now you have to understand it."
"We can never see past the choices we don't understand."

This is probably the only real supernatural event in the films. The fact that Neo and the Oracle can actually see "the world without time."

The point that I'm dealing with is understanding the "why" of the decisions that are made. This can make one really understand the matrix they're in. So are you just choosing from available options or are you truly exercising free will? So part of waking up or breaking free involves examining why you are doing what you are doing.

Apropos, RainKing about "choice", some time today said:

that sounds pretty close to my way of thinking. Oh... and you told me to tell you to remind you to tell me what your assumptions were. Got it? good lol.

And Intell... nice post lol.

hexediter wrote:

you told me to tell you to remind you to tell me what your assumptions were.

Yes indeedy. Okay, well basically my assumption was based on the quote from Agent Smith in M1, when he said the following:

Agent Smith wrote:

No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from.

I'll deal with my assumption about the second part, since it leads into my assumption about the first part. I noticed that Smith said that people were trying to wake up from the Matrix. My assumption was that they tried, but were not successful. I felt that if they had been able to wake up in the way that you have described, he would have simply said that people were waking up.

And then based on the assumption that people were trying to wake up but couldn't, I surmised that this was the reason that the crops were lost. I theorized that the repeated failed attempts to wake up were so traumatic to the mind that it eventually led to the person's death.

Apart from any social commentary, I looked at the situation from a purely technical viewpoint (no big surprise there). I examined the idea that in the Matrix mythology, your mind truly can separate from your body and enter a virtual computer simulation. This naked mind dresses itself with a surrogate body in the form of a Residual Self Image, and goes about living its digital life in its new digital world. And although there must remain a connection between mind and body (via the port in the back of the neck), the mind is basically free to roam about.

Now for the first two versions of the Matrix, I theorized that there was no way for the mind to return to the body. I imagined that when the mind begins to realize that its surrounding environment is in fact fake, it desires to leave that fake world and fake body and return to the real world and real body. I surmised that this feeling of being trapped in a fake world and unable to return to the real world led to the crops being lost, which I assumed meant that people were dying from repeated failed attempts to return their minds to their bodies.

...totally brilliant post! I had just enough time over the weekend to read it, and I made a mental note to respond to it on Monday. Then I'm sitting here looking all over the boards for it, and it was right in the same thread I'd already responded to! Gotta use that scroll bar more often....

Anyway, I really liked RainKing's analogy of the multiple choice test. It makes it more clear to me why the Oracle's Matrix would have a higher rate of success than the Architect's. I've been listening recently to Alan Watts, and he has this to say (in a roundabout way) about the Architect's plight in his "Nature of Consciousness" lesson:

Alan Watts wrote:

The physical world is wiggly. Clouds, mountains, trees, people, are all wiggly. And only when human beings get to working on things--they build buildings in straight lines, and try to make out that the world isn't really wiggly. But here we are, sitting in this room all built out of straight lines, but each one of us is as wiggly as all get-out. Now then, when you want to get control of something that wiggles, it's pretty difficult, isn't it? You try and pick up a fish in your hands, and the fish is wiggly and it slips out. What do you do to get hold of the fish? You use a net. And so the net is the basic thing we have for getting hold of the wiggly world. So if you want to get hold of this wiggle, you've got to put a net over it. A net is something regular. And I can number the holes in a net. So many holes up, so many holes across. And if I can number these holes, I can count exactly where each wiggle is, in terms of a hole in that net. And that's the beginning of calculus, the art of measuring the world. But in order to do that, I've got to break up the wiggle into bits. I've got to call this a specific bit, and this the next bit of the wiggle, and this the next bit, and this the next bit of the wiggle. And so these bits are things or events. Bit of wiggles. Which I mark out in order to talk about the wiggle. In order to measure and therefore in order to control it. But in nature, in fact, in the physical world, the wiggle isn't bitted. Like you don't get a cut-up fryer out of an egg. But you have to cut the chicken up in order to eat it. You bite it. But it doesn't come bitten.

I love the way this guy talks! It's nonsense that makes so much sense, it's scary!

I also really liked how you contrasted the concept of choice among the three big players--the Architect, the Oracle and the Merovingian. One says it's a variable, one says it's an illusion, and one says you can't see past a choice you don't understand. The Merovingian's viewpoint, while a bit on the pessimistic side, is closer to the truth than any of us really wants to think about. The Wachowski Brothers apparently believe this as well since the entire Matrix mythology bears out the truth of the Merovingian's beliefs. But based on our own human experience, I would say that the Architect's definition of a choice is furthest removed from reality. Like Alan Watts said, the Matrix is the Architect's attempt to catch a wiggly thing with a measurable thing. But wiggly things don't come in bits OR bytes. And just like in chaos theory, life finds a way to break through--hence the anomaly. The net can never be 100% perfect to catch all the wiggly things, but it can be 99% perfect. Then you just have to have a shiny lure to catch that remaining 1% on the hook.

Whoa.

That was deep, Feral.

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One says it's a variable.

Well if you're trying to control it, like Archie, it is a variable.

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one says it's an illusion,

Once it is solved and countered, it isn't a real choice anymore, it is someone's joke with you. The Merv has seen it play out for a long time.

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one says you can't see past a choice you don't understand

When you understand a choice, it doesn't feel like a choice. Most decisions we make only feel like real decisions when there seems to be more than one way to go and things that we want down each way. But most of the time, we see one clear way to go and we take it. When a choice is based on faith/belief alone, it is a variable even to the one making it. Who can see past a choice that the chooser can't even tell you where it goes? TEMET NOSCE and enough of that for now.

Quote:

The Merovingian's viewpoint, while a bit on the pessimistic side, is closer to the truth than any of us really wants to think about.

You're absolutely right about that. But maybe it's about time, we all start.

So. No One in the previous matrices, right?

intell wrote:

So. No One in the previous matrices, right?

I'm just about there, but I'd like to hear people's opinion on my assumptions (the posting I made just before the Alan Watts "wiggly" reference).

exactly by what mechanism the failed matrices failed we can not know. Perhaps they did die, unable to wake up... or maybe they woke up, and became a "ruined crop". The physical world is wiggly, but it is also not wiggly... planets are sphere's (actually slightly eliptical but very close to spherical). While we are wiggly, we are also symetrical, cells are nearly indentical, and in plants they are built one after another right next to each other. Planets follow orbits, they don't just fly off in any direction, comets do the same thing. On the quantum scale with quantum physics it isn't wiggly, it is completely random. And on the a very large scale, their appears little wiggle room at all, every thing is very predictable, and behaviors all seemed to be governed by certain natural laws. All the wiggle room is usually applied to things which we don't understand, which as our knowledge of science grows (assuming we don't have another dark age...) the gap for wiggle room gets smaller and smaller. Maybe that is why once Neo knew how it had to end, he stoped trying to "wiggle" and exercise his ego. He kind of let go. I'm not sure if that is comforting or scary, but it doesn't leave any easy anwsers, that is for sure.

feral boy wrote:

I noticed that Smith said that people were trying to wake up from the Matrix. My assumption was that they tried, but were not successful. I felt that if they had been able to wake up in the way that you have described, he would have simply said that people were waking up.

That's not too much of an assumption. A comparison with Archie's statement about the same subject further supports what you said .

Quote:

I theorized that the repeated failed attempts to wake up were so traumatic to the mind that it eventually led to the person's death.

Right. The fact that the machines considered it a 'loss' indicates that the humans could not be used for energy anymore. Why? Because they're dead.

Quote:

Apart from any social commentary, I looked at the situation from a purely technical viewpoint (no big surprise there). I examined the idea that in the Matrix mythology, your mind truly can separate from your body and enter a virtual computer simulation. This naked mind dresses itself with a surrogate body in the form of a Residual Self Image, and goes about living its digital life in its new digital world. And although there must remain a connection between mind and body (via the port in the back of the neck), the mind is basically free to roam about.

Almost all of this is true from a social commentary pov as well. Vive le real world perspective!

Quote:

I assumed meant that people were dying from repeated failed attempts to return their minds to their bodies.

Right. With no exits, they cannot return mind to body. Neo wouldn't have lasted long in Mobil Ave likewise. But from Kid's Story and World Record we see that there is more to learn about being able to reunite mind and body without the technology being present just as Neo was able to separate the two without physical jacking in.

You notice MxO (the fourth matrix) allows "red pills" to jack out once fatally wounded (inside the matrix).