»Neo knew he as going to die.«

I think that if you look at the conversations of Neo you will nottice that he is aware that he is going to die, sort of like Jesus, I dont know too much of the bible, but i kno that Jesus knew he was going to die, but he didnt do anything.

It's his purpose.

After meeting the program family in Mobil Ave station, he knew it for sure. He had to sacrifice himself for everything: the Zion community, the program community (who had love and empathy too) and the ignorant community (who else would have been killed with the Matrix crash).

Neo only figures out he has to sacrifice his life when he hears
the Oracles words out of Smiths mouth.

Everything that has a begining has an end.

It is at that point that he accepts that his end is inevitlable
and it is the only way to defeat smith.

Prior to this he was in limbo...

Red Ghost is correct i think. Neo on Mobil station just got more info about the nature of the machines, started thinking, was a bit confused. When trinity arrives he again concentrates to her. Its in the end that he grasps it.

Not really, as Trinity could already see in his eyes that he was not going to return from his ultimate mission. Both Neo and Trinity want to accept this.

What is interesting though is what would have happened if Trinity would not have died.

Would she have joined him towards Deus Ex Machina? Could Neo have sacrificed himself with her still being alife?

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Would she have joined him towards Deus Ex Machina? Could Neo have sacrificed himself with her still being alife?

It is interesting.

Neither Neo nor Trinity should have been there -- the machines weren't expecting them -- it was part of the Oracle's gamble that they take that route. Trinity's purpose was to help Neo reach DEM, since he couldn't have made it without her.

Neo in the end was going to die no matter what. Trinity was meant to die then too. They lived together in love, and parted together in death. I expect they will rise again together as well.

1 Cor 11:11

Red Ghost wrote:

Neo only figures out he has to sacrifice his life when he hears the Oracles words out of Smiths mouth. Everything that has a begining has an end. It is at that point that he accepts that his end is inevitlable and it is the only way to defeat smith. Prior to this he was in limbo...

I agree with Mobil.
Neo knew he was going to die and he was ready to die...

Neo: Trinity... There's something I have to say. Something you need to understand. I know I'm supposed to go. But beyond that - I don't know...
Trinity: I know. You don't think you're coming back. I knew it the moment you said you had to leave. I could see it in your face.

When he hears the Oracle's words spoken by Smith, however, he understands that... and why... the moment for his sacrifice has come.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

What is interesting though is what would have happened if Trinity would not have died.

Most of us believe that Neo had to give up his last attachment, Trinity, in order to reach enlightenment. The emphazis is on "give up", as opposed to "taken waway".

Trinity is an important,... THE important,... means to keep Neo on track in his search for a way to end the war between man and machine, which turnes out to be Temet Nosce.

Oracle: ...for what it's worth...you've made a believer out of me.

When Neo has arrived at 01, when the path of the One ends, and the means are about to give way to (or merge in) the all (contemplation, truth),… Trinity dies as a separate entity.
For that reason, I believe, Trinity's death was inevitable; and Neo's "now" is a hint at who "killed" their "worldly" bond.

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Neo: Trinity... There's something I have to say. Something you need to understand. I know I'm supposed to go. But beyond that - I don't know... Trinity: I know. You don't think you're coming back. I knew it the moment you said you had to leave. I could see it in your face.

This conversation does not say that Neo KNEW he was going to die. It means he thought he MIGHT die (with a not very small probability of that happening, but still, it was an annoying possibility). But he certainly wasnt sure at that point. Thats why they put the words "But beyond that , i dont know", in his mouth. After all, all humans have hope and hope dies last. Its normal to think he can make it. Besides, If he knew so early in the film, this subtracts a great deal from his enlightment moment with smith and the Oracles message.

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Most of us believe that Neo had to give up his last attachment, Trinity, in order to reach enlightenment. The emphazis is on "give up", as opposed to "taken waway".

Do you think this is not the case? I 'm not sure what you're saying here.

The Therion wrote:

This conversation does not say that Neo KNEW he was going to die. It means he thought he MIGHT die (with a not very small probability of that happening, but still, it was an annoying possibility). But he certainly wasnt sure at that point. Thats why they put the words "But beyond that , i dont know", in his mouth. After all, all humans have hope and hope dies last. Its normal to think he can make it.

Does he know for sure that they will make it through the defense line around the machine city?

Trinity: Do you see what's out there?
Neo: Yes.
Trinity: If you tell me we'll make it, I'll believe you.
Neo: We'll make it. We have to.


I think we have to differentiate between conscious and subconscious knowledge:

Neo: Can Zion be saved?
Oracle: I'm sorry, I don't have the answer to that question, but if there's an answer, there's only one place you're going to find it.
Neo: Where?

We have witnessed how, in an attempt to free himself from Mobil Ave, Neo has seen the three power lines.

Oracle: You know where. And if you can't find the answer, then I'm afraid there may be no tomorow for any of us.

The Oracle points Neo at his subconscious knowledge that he has to go to the machine city. But he doesn't yet understand why he has to go, and what will expect him there.

Same goes for his sacrifice:

Oracle: He is you. Your opposite, your negative, the result of the equation trying to balance itself out.

In his subconscious Neo knows that he will die...

Trinity: You don't think you're coming back

DEM: And if you fail?
Neo: I won't.

... but he doesn't yet understand how and why.

-> Subconscious knowledge becomes conscious knowledge through experience

The Theorion wrote:

Besides, If he knew so early in the film, this subtracts a great deal from his enlightment moment with smith and the Oracles message.

The big "surprise" about his Satori moment is not the death itself, but the how and why: Everybody thought only Neo - as the powerful One - could fight Smith to his end, maybe even dying, too, from the effort.
That it would be a surrender,... the paradox of choice and choicelessness resolved,... nobody could have possibly imagined. This is what made us scratch our heads for quite some time,....and this is what makes many people hate the ending.

tozy wrote:

Do you think this is not the case? I 'm not sure what you're saying here.

Yes, I think it is the case. I say "most of us believe", because it is an interpretation,.... stated quite often,... but not THE truth.

tozy wrote:

The emphazis is on "give up", as opposed to "taken waway"

Nobody but you,.... can walk the path towards your enlightenment -> the choices are entirely yours -> YOU have to give up your attachments, not somebody else - or fate - for you.
Thus, I believe, it is no coincidence that Trinity dies at that particular moment...

Trinity: It's all right, Neo. It's time.

thanks for the reply tozy (i always enjoy your posts).

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Does he know for sure that they will make it through the defense line around the machine city?

No. but neither the opposite. Thats what i'm saying. He didnt know anything for certain.

You are now adding something new to the conversation : conscious and uncoscious knowledge. This is tricky. It depends on what consciousness is, and what you define as knowledge. If you think you are going to succed in something, ...but dont know why...many would call that belief/hunch. Not knowledge. Neo didnt know as you and i know that right now i am typing. (for example). He even doubts it.

Besides, the original topic starter, stated "I think that if you look at the conversations of Neo you will nottice that he is aware that he is going to die, sort of like Jesus", which (even with the tricky distiction you made), talks about conscious knowledge. And to that i replied that he didnt know.

Now IF, we take the term "knowledge" more broadly, and IF we can say that we can unconsciouly "know" some things, then , i agree with you, that somewhere deep in the back of his head, maybe he "knew".

I just dont think this is what the topic starter was talking about.

The Therion wrote:

You are now adding something new to the conversation : conscious and uncoscious knowledge. This is tricky. It depends on what consciousness is, and what you define as knowledge.

You are right, it is tricky.

As I've stated in other threads, it is my believe that the Matrix universe is a map of human consciousness; and I feel somewhat confirmed in my understanding by Larry's "The Matrix is an exploration of consciousness".

The Oracle sends Neo on a path towards Temet Nosce-> "know thyself" -> what you are, but yet unaware of.

Consciousness, as understood by the Matrix movies, I believe, is not merely the workings of the brain,.... but the different levels of perceiving who and what you are.
Humans and programs in the movies, to me, represent aspects of the nature of man. And the Oracle is so utterly important for Neo's path, and the peace between man and machine, because she, the intuitive program, represents intuition -> the bridge to subconscious knowledge.

Thus, if you define consciousness that way, knowledge must be more than just the intellect:

Neo starts his path throughout the trilogy based on his subconscious knowledge...

Morpheus: You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there, like a splinter in your mind driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me.

...and he "ends"...

Neo: "It was inevitable"

...with full "Temet nosce" -> not intellectual knowledge, but the experience of his spirit nature -> enlightenment

Well said. Ι agree with this view. Its just that , as Morpheus says, its more of a feeling/intuition, than knowledge. I think it can only be called knowledge once we understand it. This is why i say Neo didnt know yet. (and as i said b4, the person who started the topic was probably talking about conscious knowing).

...concerning the quality of the approach to the unconscious (through the Matrix/mind):

matrix-explained.com...

For those who don't know it: the guy on the left is Sigmund Freud

Hehe, cool pic. I have read a few things about Freud's life and work and surely the Architect looks like him. what do you suppose they wanted to symbolize with this? That he was someone who also couldnt figure out exactly how the human mind /soul works ?

If the Architect is Freud, wouldn't that make the Oracle Jung?

ps. I'm much more of a Jungian than a Freudian myself.

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If the Architect is Freud, wouldn't that make the Oracle Jung?

Hmm...i'm not sure. Jung was going a little too far in his theories and beliefs. Maybe Lewis is a better antithesis for Freud.

But Jung was all about archetypes and the collective subconscious ala the Oracle.

CaptPostMod wrote:

I'm much more of a Jungian than a Freudian myself.

I figured...

I don't think the Architect IS Freud. Rather, I believe, with his looks we are given a hint as to the quality of the approach to man's true nature/essence through (the doors of) the Matrix (-> Temet Nosce)
Just as the Oracle, I consider the Architect to represent an aspect of the nature of man; in his case a very Mayan aspect:

If we consider the law of karma, which suggests that a person's mental and physical actions determine the progress of his life on earth, that a person's future is his or her own creation,.... I believe the choice of words in...

Second Ren.: "Thus did man become the... architect ... of his own demise"

... is no coincidence.

If you are talking in terms of Silvia Platt... yeah sure
Neo knew he was going to die. As in we all know that
we are going to die. What he did not know was how
and why. That information only comes to him, I repeat
when he hears the oracles words.

Tozy mentions the oracle saying to Neo if there is an
answer... and then mixes this up with the power lines.
The oracle was talking about the source.

We can interpret the matrix as many things.
I.E people say the archie is Freud, when
infact he looks very much like Norbeit Weiner.

tozy wrote:

I don't think the Architect IS Freud. Rather, I believe, with his looks we are given a hint as to the quality of the approach to man's true nature/essence through (the doors of) the Matrix (-> Temet Nosce) Just as the Oracle, I consider the Architect to represent an aspect of the nature of man; in his case a very Mayan aspect

Sorry, tozy, but I still don't understand. If the Architect is a visual echo of Freud, what is that meant to tell us about his role in the Matrix (or about the Matrix itself)? Are you referring to the struggles of id/ego/superego (which are very present)? I'm not quite following your meaning. Please explain more

mrbrown950 wrote:

I think that if you look at the conversations of Neo you will nottice that he is aware that he is going to die, sort of like Jesus, I dont know too much of the bible, but i kno that Jesus knew he was going to die, but he didnt do anything.

But that's what makes Neo's choice so spectacular in Revolutions.

Independent of the Oracle, independent of any prophecy, independent of Morpheus...Neo is making the decision to - figuratively speaking - carry the burden of his cross all the way to the machine city and then sacrifice himself for both man and machine-kind.

Even Bane's taunts of Neo as "the blind messiah" invoke certain Biblical ideas in terms of Jesus' being taunted by the Roman guards as he carried his cross, blindfolded.

CaptPostMod wrote:

Sorry, tozy, but I still don't understand. If the Architect is a visual echo of Freud, what is that meant to tell us about his role in the Matrix (or about the Matrix itself)? Are you referring to the struggles of id/ego/superego (which are very present)? I'm not quite following your meaning. Please explain more

Capt,
yes, I am referring to Freud's id/ego/superego,.... to what the "superego" is, to Freud's approach to the unconscious (-> the door of light -> the stars -> caught in the monitors -> control), and to Freud's thesis that...

"rationality is the great and final omega point of individual and collective development, the high-water mark of all evolution. " - Wilber "SES"

matrix-explained.com... (just pics,... no long reading... )
matrix-explained.com...
matrix-explained.com...

tozy wrote:

Capt, yes, I am referring to Freud's id/ego/superego,.... to what the "superego" is, to Freud's approach to the unconscious (-> the door of light -> the stars -> caught in the monitors -> control), and to Freud's thesis that... "rationality is the great and final omega point of individual and collective development, the high-water mark of all evolution. " - Wilber "SES"

Interesting stuff, tozy. Someone else was approaching some of these ideas in the same way not to long ago? I can't remember who that was though? Something about the trilogy being anti-Nietzschian.

So, if I'm understanding correctly then, you are seeing the Architect as a champion of rationality, much the way Freud was? Besides the obvious (that the Architect is very rational), what does that illustrate about the trilogy? Why have Neo meet and ultimately reject a Freud figure?