»arrays«

a matrix is just an array of numbers. computers use them to keep track of data, but really, its just a cool sounding word that was used in film title to make the movie sound appealing.

people here talk about how their eyes are open and they see the truth and the matrix is the world...it's a movie. It wasn't made to reveal the hidden truth about neojesus and his superworldsaving powers. It was made to make people money, and, less cynically, perhaps because someone wanted to tell a story.

How open can your eyes be if you're taking your cues from a series of movies? I liked the movies and all, but, this is just too much. Why not star wars? there's plenty of metaphor in that. Or, Underworld. Maybe the Underworld movies are trying to tell us about the secret vampire werewolf war and kate beckinsale is jesus...

they're just movies, and a matrix is just an array of numbers.

Further sarcastic mathgeek comments include:

if life is the matrix, what's its determinant?

But why can't i solve using Gaussian Elimination?

This is a job for the Gram-Shmidt algorithm!

and so forth

despite how jaded you may be, mediums are and always will be used to tell story's, flesh out ideas, and convey different points of view. Is every book written to make money? Is that what the author has in mind when he sits at the table? Besides, their is more then one kind of matrix, and the definition of a matrix itself is not limited only to an array of numbers...

You are right, often those who produce works and who want people to see those works, will create a title that sounds good, and might get people to actually read the book, or see the movie, or listen to the record. Like... Whoa... dude.

And if you want movies that are actually simuliar to the matrix besides being science fiction or fantasy, you should try Dark City, or even the Truman Show, because both of those films are closer in spirit to the matrix then Underworld or Star Wars... of course you would have to open your eyes to see this... obviously.

It is serial fiction, and as such it isn't meant to be some type of religious cannon. But just because we find value in it, and you do not, does not mean that we are the blind, but perhaps it does make us the freaks... if by freak you mean perceptive lol.

And if we want to get techincal... which judging by your jokes you seem to enjoy... here is the definition of a matrix...

ma·trix (mtrks)
n. pl. ma·tri·ces (mtr-sz, mtr-) or ma·trix·es
1. A situation or surrounding substance within which something else originates, develops, or is contained: "Freedom of expression is the matrix, the indispensable condition, of nearly every form of freedom" Benjamin N. Cardozo.
2. The womb.
3. Anatomy
a. The formative cells or tissue of a fingernail, toenail, or tooth.
b. See ground substance.
4. Geology
a. The solid matter in which a fossil or crystal is embedded.
b. Groundmass.
5. A mold or die.
6. The principal metal in an alloy, as the iron in steel.
7. A binding substance, as cement in concrete.
8.
a. Mathematics A rectangular array of numeric or algebraic quantities subject to mathematical operations.
b. Something resembling such an array, as in the regular formation of elements into columns and rows.
9. Computer Science The network of intersections between input and output leads in a computer, functioning as an encoder or a decoder.
10. Printing
a. A mold used in stereotyping and designed to receive positive impressions of type or illustrations from which metal plates can be cast. Also called mat2.
b. A metal plate used for casting typefaces.
11. An electroplated impression of a phonograph record used to make duplicate records.

The mathematical definition (yes, matrix has been around long before the cpu...) you will notice is number 8 on the list... perhaps you could try applying all applicable meanings to the films and come back and tell us if you find anything clever, or if it's still just a word that sound cool. Maybe you could start with number one... lol.

freaks wrote:

people here talk about how their eyes are open and they see the truth and the matrix is the world...it's a movie.

And whether true or not, the Bible is just a story. Stories can show us as much if not more about or world then the world itself can sometimes.

freaks wrote:

It wasn't made to reveal the hidden truth about neojesus and his superworldsaving powers. It was made to make people money, and, less cynically, perhaps because someone wanted to tell a story.

I think it was made to do all three. Most successful writers (and I have known many of them) sit down with first the urge to tell a story, but then in the back of their head they think about winning the story telling lottery and making a few million off it, and of course they want to reveal the hidden truth of the world they see. Story telling is about telling people the hidden world inside yourself. The Matrix, at its heart, is about Larry and Andy Wachowski's personal vision of the messiah archetype. What's wrong with that? And if all they had wanted was money, they probably would have gone with a much more profitable ending to Revolutions

freaks wrote:

How open can your eyes be if you're taking your cues from a series of movies?

Now here you have a bit of a point. To need myths to guide you to enlightenment means that you have not arrived at it yet. You are still seeing the finger and not the moon. But that's okay. All journeys begin with a path. The Matrix is just one such path.

How open can your eyes be if you think you came here to insult us? If you really thought that discussing the Matrix was a useless pastime and that anyone that did it was insane, then why did you initiate contact with us? I don't think you're so naive as to think you'd actually change our minds and we'd just close down the forum because Mr. Freaks thinks discussing the Matrix is stupid. So what was your point? Ask yourself, what are you trying to accomplish?

There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking it. Why not take your first step onto a path you seem drawn towards? What are some of your ideas about the Matrix, Freaks?

I'm beginning to think all these its-just-a-movie-man posters with 1-3 posts to their name that have come on recently are the same person pretending to be a trend.

intell wrote:

I'm beginning to think all these its-just-a-movie-man posters with 1-3 posts to their name that have come on recently are the same person pretending to be a trend.

I think you might be right.

well let's see, where to start...

Firstly, i didn't come here to make fun of anyone or to tell you to close this forum down. I came across This website, and i posted the thoughts i had on it. Don't take things i say to extremes, I'm not trying to insult anyone here. You certainly have the right to find meaning and value in whatever you would like.

In fact, i won't even go so far as to call the matrix meaningless. It's a pretty entertaining movie that's littered with metaphor and symbolism, and can certainly be interpreted as a scathing social commentary, amongst other things. Where i take issue, is with people who watch this movie, and attempt to make direct and superficial correlations to the real world. People who think that because they've seen this movie they know something the rest of the world is too stupid/blind/insertadjective to know. I take issue with these people because whether their secret knowledge comes from a movie or the bible or the quran or whatever, these are the people that claim to be the ordained agents of god (or if you prefer, the matrix) with exclusive rights to speak for said deity (or deified film). This is a very particular personality archetype which seeks to grant itself the status of exclusive knowledge and therefore the right to lead others, whether in a church or a government or on an internet forum. It's the same behavioral mechanism, the same seemingly instinctive grasping for authority, which so offends me.

okay,m now to breathe for a moment. what else...

ah, my name 'freaks' isn't to insult you. freaks, outcasts, poor etc etc are the one's i choose to identify with.

Now, the mathematical definition may be eighth on your list but i don't really care what order you put them in. the definition the movie is referencing is fairly undeniably the 9th, which, coincidentally is really just an application of the math so, i'm not really sure what that's meant to prove.

if a writer sits down to tell a story, and ends up caring more that he might get rich, he will have lost his way and be writing for the wrong reasons and no longer really has the right to consider himself an artist. He is now a slave to money. hooray!

As for what are my ideas about the movie(s)...

i think they should have stopped at two, but, that they probably wrote all three as a set and so despite the movies descending into an orgy of special effects and woodblock quality acting from keanu reeves, they had to finish what they started because there was story to tell and money to make.

There's no shortage of metaphor and you could certainly make the case that neo is meant to be a messiah figure but i wouldn't take that as a cue to try to start a new religion/cult.


lastly, i have never posted here before my last post, under any other name. Perhaps someone else has been doing what you suspect and creating names and posting things to a similar effect, but, i'm just one person with just one name. I'm pretty sure that's a rule somewhere in the phpboard ula anyways...

okay, i think i'm done.

oh no, wait. I'm not a christian and you can attack christianity or any organized religion all you want for that matter, because i find many of the same flaws in them that i find with these matrix philosophies...

and that link..i can't take it too seriously. If you have a large enough group of numbers the likelihood that they will have certain relationships is pretty high, especially when they aren't random but numbers out of religious texts. Certain numbers are often intentionally chosen because they have symbolic or even aesthetic value. There are numbers and ratios that are part and parcel of the human experience ( the golden ratio, for one...) and if there are any secret messages embedded within religious texts (or within the matrix, for that matter) in my opinion they're just as insignificant as the surrounding fodder.

rant off. oxygen time!

Freaks, its quite simple, you're right. You haven't a clue.

Second half of:

Hmm....
this isn't the first person we've ever encountered to be sooo.... intentionally and forcefully resistent to experiencing a thought process and perhaps self-reflection along the way, but he is one of the more respectful with his tones and inferences (whether it's because of an older viewpoint or the realization of challenging a concensus of the forum)
Metaphors are one small link in the chain. Philosophy yet another. Social commentary another. The complete mechanism or the 'bigger picture' or 'end result' is what's intriguing to many. Unfortunately, education anywhere, isn't as complete as one would hope. There's a great deal of information and content that's left out depending where you attend school (having attended Catholic Private schoold all my life, i'm very well acquainted with the narrowed or topical addressments of anything outside the Christian agenda. At best, you're lucky if they present any material counter to Christian ideals without any biasing commentary). So for some when they come here, especially the ones who've been previously bumming around sites that focus on gaming or special effects or adolescent infatuations with violence or marital arts or SUperheros, there's this whole new arena of information. Some of it they sort-of know about, some is new and exciting.
My first encounters with the MATRIX, followed such a path. Topical interests, then deeper interest in the metaphorical content of the movie, and then even deeper correlations of philosophy and it's assesment of human nature/history. ANYTHING, whatever medium it is, that stimulates interest, if not passion about self-reflection of our species Moral and ethical behavior both in the present and past and future IS BENEFITIAL TO OUR EVOLUTION AND EXISTENCE. WHO are theones most infatuated with this tirology? The younger generation. WHO will be world leaders of the future? The younger generation. WHO best to nurture and cultivate with healthy doses of PURE Perception, ethics and morality? The younger generation.
Hide behind whatever reason one must to resist confronting one's own prejudices, one's own vices, and one's own rationalizations of departure from special Integrity, but leave those who want to be better humans and make this planet a better place for all life-forms to their passion and work - it can only benefit us all.

Bless all forms of life.

Good to see you back, Loct. We've been having the kind of discussions you would enjoy, lately.

Check out my honorable mention of you in:

well now, see, you prove my point. I don't agree with you, so i am blind. I don't agree with you implies a defect in me, one that you do not suffer from which obviously qualifies you to lead me, makes it appropriate i should be subject to you because you possess this secret truth. It's an impulse towards authoratarianism which i detest in every form i can see it. That's why I come here and make my statement, and that's most of what i disagree with. I don't place as much significance on the movie as some of you, but, really that's hardly reason enough to come here and argue about it. This is a place you can all sit around and discuss your theories and ideas, and, that's great. That's the great thing about the internet, there's tons and tons of space for whatever you may want to do, that everyone should be able to do their thing in peace, but, i come across this authoritarianism everywhere and i can't help but yell at it. Call me childish if you must.

I don't think the matrix is a suitable guide for how to live my life. I see there is philosophy in it and i do not, for the most part, agree with what i see. Which, incidentally is the same thing that happens when i am confronted with more or less any philosopher's works. I don't think that limits me as a person. I'm not 'so blind' that I can't watch this movie and see there are all these symbols. But it symoblizes a fictional world, a divided world i don't believe in. It very distinctly cuts humanity up into the sleepers, who can be made agents of this macheanistically evil entity known as "the machines" and "the matrix" and the awakened. The enlightened, special, human side. "The good guys." This is loathsome. I don't think anything in the world can be so neatly divided. I don't think there is absolute evil. (or good...) The matrix makes a decent job of allowing for redemption for some, those who are asleep have the potential to be awakened but for the most part, they require the intervention of the superior, already awake people. It makes a distinction based on class and poses a definite good and evil, making a weak and de-emphasized concessionary out of acknowledging the hubris and flaws of man. (man created the hellish surface world by blotting out the sun, man created the machines themselves...) But it separates humanity into the good and the (at best) expendable. It separates them from their selfish and lazy sides, primarily, i suspect, because it is a movie. And, that's usually how movies work. Good guys, bad guys, conflict. Maybe even some betrayal to spice it up, but the betrayer guy has to be ugly and different from everyone somehow. This is exactly why it doesn't make a good place to take your philosophy from. There really aren't any new ideas in the movie, any point it makes can be found in a variety of philosophies without so much simplification for the sake of mass marketing. There are better statements of the same ideas, you just have to work a little harder for them. So don't be so quick to call me blind, just because you watched a movie and saw the simplified versions of various philosophies, though, granted, in an interesting and entertaining, even, thought provoking amalgamation.

As for being polite, i'm polite because, well, why shouldn't I be? There's no reason to be rude. I don't think disagreeing with someone should make them my enemy, and even if i did, i think an intelligent and thoughtful statement is more likely to be read than "teh mtrix is a movie u guyz r stpid." If i'm coming here and expecting the respect of being heard and responded to intelligently, the least i can do is to be respectful. Frankly, i'm not very old, 19 years just barely and i can't say i remember any more than 16 of them. Anyway i think i've gone pretty far off topic now, so i guess i should be quiet.

Ok, first i respect your opinion, you can say what you want about The Matrix trilogy, ok i agree that the movies are made to make money, but you can,t change that, i mean its not free to do a movie, also i think you are missing the point here, nobody its saying you are blind because you dont believe, also im not saying that the movie has secret messages, only because NEO means ONE and he is like Jesus, i am saying that the movie opens your eyes to the world we are living in, in the society we are living in, that in a way we are not so far of being in a Matrix, but the movie also talks about HOPE, talks about freedom cannot be taken from anyone, and that the meaning of our life its the one that we give it, its just how you choose to see it, there is no wrong answer, its not about: "Its just a stupid movie", or "We ,live in a computer program AAAAaaaa", its about asking yourself: What is the point of my existence.

Bye.
Mr.Brown

Beyond your suppositions of what we MUST see you as (as YOU said and no one else - BLIND), you refuse to consider the other side - which makes you closed minded. Whether you interpret that as 'blindness' or 'a firm holding to your beliefs', the fact remains that in order to state opposition to something - onemust consider it themselves (this is usually how opposition arises - when one applies the idea to thyemselves instead of the group or vice versa).
Contrary to your simplifications of what the movie has to offer - social commentary (that you somehow see as fictional and having no real value), simplified philosophy (WOW - at 19 you've already studied the gambit of philosophy if you've heard and understood all the original forms of the myriad philosophies mentioned - must be a HELL of a school system you attend) and a 'good' medium in which to present it, the triology's story goes beyong mere fiction sir. If only you could stop fo ra moment and ponder the 'WHYS' beyond profits.
As far as Authoritarianism and Matrix fansites, the more you explain yourself, the more i start to think that perhaps this is more about "LACK". When you come across sites like these - you'll find depending on their bent, either tons of MXO gossip and game play details. OR Tons of theory-based ideas and theory exploration. OR even topical discussions about martial arts, Role playing, etc. Within all these possbilities you may find LOTS of what you interpret Authoritarian behaviors. Indeed you may be right especially with younger posters who've not yet learned to be humble and thrive upon the ego's rewards.
But there are places where there's commentary and theory and philosophical discussion that moves the group in a direction. Whether or not it's an end point or just a beginning point, the base line IS what's relevant. WHY do some posters speak so "in the know"? Might it be they've been to finatacism and back? Might it be the Matrix was once an enigma of information that had to be solved in a certain order to garner understanding at deeper levels?
Might it be the Matrix initiated a jpurney within that brought some to a place they could see the bigger picture of the world around them?
The message here is that: No matter how much we think we know, we know very little. We can only share what we do know in hopes of growing the collective.

Authoritarianism works on imposing info on another by means of some sort of assumed authority bro. if look cloesly - no one was crying out for you to come in and save some from others forcing their views/beliefs on them. No one was losing ab argument or being bullied - so it's intriguing to me that a 'PASSER BY' suddenly feels it their obligation, after interpreting such an autrocity, to swoop in to defend .... what ? .... a principle that no one was even inferred has been infringed upon? And not only that, but a 'PASSER BY' that's not even interested in the genre in which we speak....
hmm....

Quote:

Beyond your suppositions of what we MUST see you as (as YOU said and no one else - BLIND), you refuse to consider the other side - which makes you closed minded. Whether you interpret that as 'blindness' or 'a firm holding to your beliefs'

Freaks, all I am saying is that maybe at 19, you haven't the experience (and this is not a sight or a flame) to understand that which the movie describes, hence to you it describes nothing or more accurately, nothing that you know much about.

To use an illustration:

If I wrote you a message in French (assuming you don't read French), you may be able to pick out a word here or there. (the explicit references to existing philosophies and religions). But until you understand the language (the subtext), you can forget being able to grasp the message. You may not be able to grasp the message if you read French anyway but at least you would be in a better position to do so.

I will say that you know a little about what the message says, freaks. But not because of this message but because of SOME exposure to other messages like it spoken in a language you do understand. But to think there is no message, simply because of the language barrier it is a little inappropriate.

And this is not even coming from a fanboy.

psikeyhacker wrote:

Philosophers are people with degrees in philosophy, they don't necessarily have any brains. The same applies to people with degrees in computer science. It is amazing how many "computer scientists" don't understand electricity. How can you understand the functionings of an electronic device with no understanding of electricity? This society teaches people to think with words and promotes the paradigm that the words either are, or control reality. Words affect how people think, reality doesn't give a damn about them.... How much of our UNreal social matrix is created by words?

Psikey posted the above on another thread, but it seemed to me like it ties well to this thread too. Especially in parallel and in juxtaposition to your post, intell.

Very interesting, Capt. Multiple levels of meaning again.

I hadn't read that far in the other thread yet. So much to catch up on.

Do you agree with what Psikey said?

I'm just curious how after giving him the entire definition of the matrix he thinks number 9 is the most obvious one used by the film, when number one makes the most sense to me.

The "matrix" is the matrix for the human species collective minds. They are all contained... in the matrix, which is the definition of a matrix.

No one cried out for my help, that's true. But, you know, i never claimed to be trying to help anyone. It's something that bothers me whether it bothers you or not. It's been said many times that wherever one man is in chains so are all men, and, maybe that's a little melodramatic for an internet forum but it sums up my point neatly enough, so, maybe drop some of the intensity out of that and you've got what i'm trying to say.

Now, i'll concede that i'm young by most standards and therefore automatically barred certain experience and knowledge but, one, i must sharply disagree that this impairs my ability to understand a movie that whose target audience i am right in the meaty center of, and, frankly i resent that you insinuate that it's so absurd i might be well read in philosophy. It doesn't take a school system to learn things, and, while i don't claim to have an in depth knowledge of every philosophical idea presented in the film, i know enough to know that the wachowski's didn't create all these ideas out of nothing. I never dismissed the social commentary of the film as meaningless, although perhaps i tried to deemphasize it to make a point. I guess, that's always the danger with polemic but i'll gladly take a step back from that and say the social commentary in the film is quite apt (i don't think i talked it down too much, i seem to remember saying 'scathing' somewhere back there) but, i simply think the medium in which it's presented makes it a hypocritical message at best. How can you decry the homogenization of culture and the proverbial drawing wool over the eyes of people in a movie that's designed, or, at the very least you must admit marketed, to appeal to the lowest common denominator and take the money out of their pockets?

Now, if you care to debate philosophy with me, matrix or otherwise, i'll be glad to, it seems there's a good bit of intelligence arguing with me here and i always enjoy the free interchange of ideas. If i seem closed minded, well, try to keep in mind that i'm arguing a point, and, well frankly to do that you have to take a stance. (Concessionaries aside...) I have my prejudices like anyone else, but, i'm not so closed minded.

What intrigues me, is that for all the defense that's been mounted, no one has actually pointed out anything significant about this movie. There's been a lot of talk about it, but, i think the only posts in this thread that have attempted to draw any actual ideas out of the movie and discuss them, have been mine.

I don't spend too much time browsing the internet, especially not internet forums because, well, i take things personally and i end up getting into these sorts of arguments and really i don't have the time for ten or fifteen of these things at once, let alone the energy. But, i found this little site and, so far i have to say i'm glad i did. I don't think there's been a single reply to me that has been anything less than intelligent and (at least marginally) respectful, and, that is most certainly a rarity on the internet. So, I think i'll hang around for a bit, see what you have to say about other things that, perhaps less directly concern me. You've sort of won me over a bit, not so much by your arguments but more by your demeanor. So, i guess, thank you. This will be my last post in this thread because, well, i'm pretty sure everyone was tired of this argument before i even jumped in, so, onwards and upwards!

p.s. i assume definition number 9 because, well math is what i do and i really can't apologize for that. everything boils down to math in the end, whether you like it or not, but, that's a discussion for another time, which, maybe i'll go start about right now! peace out y'all!

Welcome, freaks! You got your first knock-down-drag-out personal fight on Matrix-Explained.com out of the way, you're definitely initiated now.

Have fun on the rest of the site!

Quote:

it seems there's a good bit of intelligence arguing with me here...

Quote:

What intrigues me, is that for all the defense that's been mounted, no one has actually pointed out anything significant about this movie.

It, like anything else is only as (in)significant as you make it.

Quote:

I don't spend too much time browsing the internet, especially not internet forums because, well, i take things personally and i end up getting into these sorts of arguments

Too bad. Maybe you'll want to work on this.

Are the films directed towards the lowest common denominators? I can see where one might topically think that. My first experience with the Matrix was what one might call the 'desired reaction from the lowest common denominators'. "Wow! awesome FX, awesome fight scenes, awesome plot devices, and a different acting pool."
But, as i 'browsed' forums and found first MatrixTheories.com and accrued a great deal of the 'philosophical' background and then MXO and a great deal of 'subtext' awareness, i realized more and more that the depth of the movie vaired for everyone. WHY? because everyone had different attractions to it/them. Mine, though topical at first, began to sink deeper and deeper into submerged commentaries and meanings.
I too, at first clung addimantly to what I thought i knew and my smugness was met with, at first, hostility. I was humbled by the sheer amount of what i 'didn't know and by the few who sought to help me realize this. It was then that many of us together forged a commonality: to seek the truth whatever that meant - in ourselves, in our societies (great thing about the internet is that folks from all over the world were conversing) and in our species.
It's not easy to realize and accept the vices and irrelevancies of our species - our misplaced priorities and attentions. But it is that very acceptance that allows us to move forward or beyond. It's the understandings many of us have acquired through 'connections' with other like individuals that enables us to see things differently or from a different perspective. Somewhere, there's a great testamont to the evolution and progression of those willing to open their minds, i wish you could read it Freaks - if for nothing else but to see the "WHY" behind some folks interpreted 'in the know'. It called 'Enforcement Faction' and if you persevere through the 10,000 words plus, you'd grasp what's possible and what we're capable of (in regards to finding and assimilating deeper meaning as a unifying group).

I know some of my comrades here know what i speak of - in fact some here migh teven have preserved this work. But if not, all we can do i shope to re-create those conditions in which CIVILITY ruled everything and prevented heated and childish discussions of the "why" and the who and the whatfor.
.... i'll be back soon my friends.

Quote:

It called 'Enforcement Faction' and if you persevere through the 10,000 words plus, you'd grasp what's possible and what we're capable of (in regards to finding and assimilating deeper meaning as a unifying group). I know some of my comrades here know what i speak of - in fact some here migh teven have preserved this work. But if not, all we can do i shope to re-create those conditions in which CIVILITY ruled everything and prevented heated and childish discussions of the "why" and the who and the whatfor.

I believe I have that thread at home, Loct. Hmmm. Maybe I should repost it on this site.

Quote:

But, as i 'browsed' forums and found first MatrixTheories.com and accrued a great deal of the 'philosophical' background and then MXO and a great deal of 'subtext' awareness, i realized more and more that the depth of the movie vaired for everyone.

I think many of us grew in the same order. Posting about the happenings in the films, then about the philosophy/mythology, then becoming aware of the subtext and message of the W's.

Thus in addition to the Enforcement Faction comes the Ministry of the Awakened.

For those who know the history, just consider the change in the relationship between me and RainKing.

indeed a monumental acomplishment in itself. Looking back, the things or people that had the greatest influence on me, were the ones who demonstrated their ideals and perspectives without imposition, yet gave whatever support guidance that was needed.
Funny thing is, some of the most influencing people/experiences were one that were met at first with trepedation, resentment. It wasn't until i had a chance to experience my own reactions and responses that i realized the greantness or wisdom in these events/humans.
Likewise, any connection made with others on like frequencies is an experience - the polarity it exerts on our lives is up to us.

man thats good reading