»The problem is the confrontation with fantasy«

I would like to hear from the community about this.
I have a strong feeling that everybody try to attack of defend the movies based on external-supports, such mithology, religion, science, and so on.
But It comes to my mind that the profile of people who enjoyed M1 was exactly those guys with some sort of carl-sagan-like skepticism, suddenly amazed by some factual-possibity of explanation on the supposely super-natural fenomena in the world. I mean, I got amazed when discovered that all the ordinary stuff might be simply a computer program, SO, we could break laws of nature and make a super-natural world by our hands, BECAUSE the world was built into a software structure.

Then we watch m2 and m3, and the movies just dump all this and suggest that some of the rational-explained stuff on m1 was simply consequences of a fantastic-super-natural-golden-power...

it is too easy , too mithic, too much bla-bla-astrology-like explanations for skeptical people. We are hackers, we are nerds, we are people that dont believe in religion, carma, spirit and stupid things like that. and then, we discover that the brothers, supposely "our type of people" use crap like this to answer more deep questions , that COULD have some rational explanation !

thats , I believe, is the biggest reason m3 seems so stupid...

Strav wrote:

we discover that the brothers, supposely "our type of people"

The brothers, as I understand, don't know much about computer hacking. They are comic book writers originally. And the first Matrix film began its life as a comic book. Comic books are the modern American mythology. Where there has always been a fascination with science in comic books, they are at their heart legends.

I can definitely see where you are coming from though. If you thought the films were about cyber-space, you would probably be very dissappointed by the sequels. Though some people argue that M3 isn't mythic enough! So who's to say?

I loved the first film when I saw it in theaters, mainly because it reminded me of Terminator and the Crow. Both very mythilogical films (and favorites of mine). When people asked me if I thought we lived in cyber-space, I'd answer that I thought reality is Maya (this was long before the sequels). So I was very happy to see the sequels delve more into religion and myth. But I can see how a straight numbers person could be dissapointed.

I strongly disagree, Reloaded had the most realistic hacker sequence of any movie I have ever seen, as Trinity used an open source network/port scanning program (Nmap), uses it to find a vulnerable SSH server, and then proceeds to exploit it using the SSH1 CRC32 exploit from 2001.

The final anwser to the trilogy is indeed spiritual in nature, but this is not uncommen really amoung good science fiction. Science fiction after all is really just a thought experiment, a "what if the world was like this" kind of question, which is a major tool of philosphical inquirery. While I wouldn't doubt that the brothers themselves are not famuliar with real life hacking, they at the very least made an effort to make it appear like it should in the real world, not some hyped 3d computer graphics that no real hacker would ever use. Besides... for the super-rational, you can always go with the Neo is the anti-virus kind of theory as to how the plot resolves itself. You get to make your own choices here (their are no anwsers ), so if you're not happy with what you see, maybe you haven't looked hard enough as most people take away what they put into it, and also what they come with.

insecure.org... scroll down to the matrix reloaded part of the news... if you want more info.

Also... lol, a news brief from England via insecure.org!

"The UK's Scotland Yard Computer Crime Unit and the British Computer Society have put out a joint warning that "Viewers of the new box office blockbuster 'Matrix Reloaded' should not be tempted to emulate the realistic depiction of computer hacking." Kids - don't try this at home!"

link to that warning can be accessed via insecure.org at the bottem of the matrix info.

hexediter wrote:

I strongly disagree, Reloaded had the most realistic hacker sequence of any movie I have ever seen, as Trinity used an open source network/port scanning program (Nmap), uses it to find a vulnerable SSH server, and then proceeds to exploit it using the SSH1 CRC32 exploit from 2001.

I think you didnt get my point. I am not talking about M2, but M3.
Also I know ssh, I am a linuxer too (a Gentooer, actually), and I love the ssh thing in M2, but I am not talking about this "detail".

I am talkin about converting a realistic movie into a fantasy one. For more science-lovers, M3 is damn disappointing...

I took my first computer course in 1969.

I went to college for electrical engineering.

I started reading about the occult in '74.

I have considered it likely that the system worked on reicarnation years before The Matrix came out.

I am speculating that there is a case of relativistic time manipulation in the Bible. Hebrews 7:3 Melchizedek without mother, father or ancestry. How does a man not have a mother?

psikeyhackr

well done strav very well done indeed..

you are an extremely gifted person i must say.

reality from fantasy..my sentiments exactly

Consider this entire concept of computer simulated reality.

I was a audio technician before I switched to computers. Computer programs for testing and simulating speakers began to appear in the late 70s. The simulators would help someone position their speakers in a room but they simulated low frequencies.

A speaker radiates thousands of frequencies in unlimited directions with changes in amplitude depending on direction. These frequeincies bounce off the walls, floor and ceiling and objects in the room. How the sound bounces off depends on the material. A room with carpeting will sound different from the same room without. Paneling sounds different from drywall. But different speakers sound different. My Vandersteens sound different between sitting down and standing up.

We are supposed believe computer systems can simultate everyone hearing these things? Plus they must simulate all of the insects in the world. There was a cat in the Matrix, were there mice? Butterflies, spiders, etc., etc. A computer simulated reality IS A FANTASY!

psikeyhackr

psikeyhackr wrote:

A computer simulated reality IS A FANTASY!

Yea,.... but a damn good one! ...As an allegory...

Strav wrote:

suddenly amazed by some factual-possibity of explanation on the supposely super-natural fenomena in the world.

Like what?

Strav wrote:

I mean, I got amazed when discovered that all the ordinary stuff might be simply a computer program, SO, we could break laws of nature and make a super-natural world by our hands, BECAUSE the world was built into a software structure

And what would the world beyond be?

the matrix as its self is science fiction. But it is a very believable science fiction.
i mean what sci fi movies actually makes you think it could be real?
the answer..

only the matrix..

what strav is saying is that the first movie is more realistic than the last 2. it could happen or maybe it has.

the maker of the matrix movie is either a good guy letting us in on the truth, or they are a bunch of bad guys playing with peoples minds.. but some people are neutral to the idea. and others just deny it, or some people believe that it is true. but only at a small level..

The first movie is about belief, and you may also notice that m2 and m3 kill belief..

so what is better?
having belief in something or not?

There is no doubt that reading SF since 1961 and watching movies since before then has affected my interpretation of and reaction to THE MATRIX. It never seriously crossed my mind that we might actually be living in a computer generated simulation. It was an amusing thought at best. Every time you read a sci-fi book you are put into a different "universe/reality," some authors have multiple books all in the same "universe" but they are all something different from this one.

So the idea of casting my mind into a different "universe" and for a time letting go of the real and going along with the fantasy is second nature to me, but I never really truly accept it as REAL. The Star Trek "universe" could theoretically have been a possible future as viewed from the 60s. The Eugenics Wars were supposed to occur in the 90s. From my perspective as a high school kid in the 60s, the 90s was the far future, now it's the past and we are on a different timeline than Star Trek. LOL

Now THE MATRIX timeline is still in our future. AI still hasn't been created. But THE MATRIX is another version of an old SF theme, The Frankenstein Monster. Man letting his technological knowledge get out of control and haveing it coming back to bite him. THE MATRIX and TERMINATOR both being, extreme and global presentations of the problem. But in reality that is what we are confroning right now. Global Warming may be a case of true techno-ecological blowback, but there are still a lot of people in denial about that. The internet itself is affecting the global economy to the benefit of some and the detriment of others. So Frankensteins are rampaging about the planet.

I consider THE MATRIX to be much more of a fantasy than 2001 in a technological sense but more important than 2001 in the allegorical sense. I looked up matrix in my Random House dictionary and was very surprised to find it said, "Rome is the matrix of western civilization." I consider the matrix to be an analogy for the culture we are born into and programmed by. We hear this phrase often these days, "Thinking outside the box." What box are they talking about and how did you get in it? It is called the socialization process. We are socialized to be good little coppertop consumers slaving away for the corporate matrix.

So the first step to escaping is becoming aware of its existence. But THE MATRIX can only show you the door.

psikeyhackr

Thanks THE_FIRST_ONE, you really got my point.. I am a little out of time to re-explain my point, specially because my bad-english.. so, you helped me a lot here.