»Soren team gone(MWM Theory)«

I have recently has some thoughts refering to the MWM theory:
On M2, in the scene of the "mission" to take off 27 blocks, to enter the source, when the three groups(Soren team, Niobe team, Neo team) go and do their duties. When a group of sentinels detect them, and throw a bomb to kill the whole crew conected to the matrix, thus making that the mission to be "incomplete", producing and forcing Trinity to enter the matrix to finish the job. My point is that I rather think that this "plan" from the machines, - to destroy Soren's crew - , to make Trinity go into the matrix, and therefore make the choice of Neo possible, wouldn't have been able to me performed unless something was true......a truth that makes this "plan" predictable from the machines....yes.....the MWM THEORY. If the "real world" was in fact a matrix, a illusion world, then the whole area of the desert of the real would be "controled" or watched by the mahines from the real real world, and thus making predictable the consecuences of killing Soren's crew.
PiukNeo.[/quote]

SMITH , WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT MY THEORY ON SOREN'S CREW?
PIUKNEO.

They could very well have forced Trin back into the Matrix - because Neo and Smith have to 'die' together..Neo could not have gone to the source or the 'LOOP' theory would have come into effect....

PiukNeo wrote:

and thus making predictable the consecuences of killing Soren's crew.

What a nice logic. Have added it.

Based on the screens we see at the Architect, it is obvious he has Neo and his friends under complete surveilance while inside the Matrix, and access to Neo's memories.

He can use this information to identify Soren team, and have sentinels sent to their location, like they did in M1.

No MWAM magic.

emp wrote:

He can use this information to identify Soren team, and have sentinels sent to their location

But this is not the point. The point is that they can forsee what Trinity is going to do after the bombing.

Magic restored

Have added it anyway.

Well, many of the characters' desicions are based on events and planning in Zion, so if they couldn't see what Trinity was going to do, they wouldn't be able to forsee anything else either... You don't have to be able to digitaly read a persons mind to predict the persons behaviour.

Magic gone.

And BTW, the Kid is an infiltrator. The digging started when he reached Zion. He is a traitor. After the machines win the war, he will be given the title of "Architect" as a reward from the machines. He is the one who is feeding the machines with info on the recent events of Zion.

emp wrote:

And BTW, the Kid is an infiltrator. The digging started when he reached Zion. He is a traitor. After the machines win the war, he will be given the title of "Architect" as a reward from the machines. He is the one who is feeding the machines with info on the recent events of Zion.

Hmm, like that idea. Have added it.

If you watch the scene again you'll notice that there was something wrong with a catwalk on Sorren's ship. A crewmember walks on the rusted out catwalk and falls to his death. The swinging catwalk then impales the operator. Earlier in the film(during the captain's meeting when Smith leaves his package) it was stated that the machines were crawling all over the hardlines, the machines were doing routine sweeps(notice the squiddy retracting its listening device before throwing the bomb). Had the operator been alive on Sorren's ship he might have been able to do something to cloak the ship from the squiddy but since he wasn't.........KABOOM. Trinity has to go in and save her man.

PiukNeo wrote:

If the "real world" was in fact a matrix, a illusion world, then the whole area of the desert of the real would be "controled" or watched by the mahines from the real real world, and thus making predictable the consecuences of killing Soren's crew.

But those "machines" are simply programs that are being controlled by the machines in the real real REAL world.

Or... just maybe.. that dude falling and impaling the other guy in Sorens ship WASN'T planned. And because of that Trinity entered the matrix.. which led "The One" to choose the other door for the first time.

Maybe in all the other cycles of the matrix everything happened the same way expect the ship didn't fall apart all the other times and trinity never had to enter the matrix... thus Neo had no reason to choose the door to his left and instead when back to the Source.

They did seem to place a lot of emphasize on that scene. I think that is the defining moment which led to Neo choosing the other door.

i think that bane was the one who made the catwalk fall....

and i think that soujiro is right on

Bane wasn't on that ship. He wasn't anywhere near it. How would he make it fall?

Hey guys. just think this out, well before all, you're all right, the other cycles could have been without the choice of the left door(Trinity), but just think this out, although the operator and the other crew member would have taken Soren team out of the matrix, or have warned them that they were in danger, the bomb would have gotten them anyways. The point here is that as the Vigilant exploded with its crew, that's why Trinity had to enter to the matrix and save them.
PiukNeo.

Jesus wrote:

Bane wasn't on that ship. He wasn't anywhere near it. How would he make it fall?

Even if he screwed the screw how could he possibly KNOW that this screws the crew and brings Trinity into the matrix? This is too improbable.

The point here is not that the screw made the crew to me killed, but that either if the bomb had hit the Vigilant with or without the crew in it, the crew would have gotten out of the matrix and thus making the task incomplete, and Trinity anyways would have to go into the matrix to finish the job by herslef.
Piukneo.

In the Flight of the Osiris anime we see a female Zionite (don't remember her name) who was sent from the hovercraft to the Matrix to deliver a message for the Oracle. she dies. and in dying, she just falls to the ground.

same thing happens when Zoren and his assault team die in the power plant: they just fall liveless to the ground.

WHY ?

why don't they DISAPPEAR ? (*)

(*please think of Ben Kenobi in the Original Star Wars; when Darth Vader struck him to death, he simply vanished, resp. his body transformed itself into energy and "beamed" itself into the miraculous world of the Force, because we later see that Old Kenobi is still alive and guiding Luke, but that's beside the point for my Zion argument now. so let's get back to the Matrix world and think about it)

What are their bodies anyway ? Digital projections of their Residual Self Image (RSI), hacked into the Matrix via the hovercraft's computer and antennas. correct me if I'm wrong. when you die inside the Matrix, but remain "intact" aboard your ship, then your virtual corpse may fall to the ground, its form held together by the constant flow of information from the hovercraft to the Matrix. "your body cannot live without mind", or so says Morpheus to Neo. So when they get the message "lost carrier signal" they recognize you as dead. they disconnect your broadcast beam (or whatever this is called) from the Matrix, and then your corpse in the Matrix will DISAPPEAR. It must, because ist is broadcast from outside, and if you cut off this stream of energy...as the explosion of their ship Vigilante does...destroyed ship, destroyed computer, destroyed antenna, cut-off of the information stream...you see what I mean ? Why don't Zoren and team diseappear ?

(Matrix citizens of course die in another way, "regularly" so to speak. They fall to the ground and are cremated, buried, whatever. Of course, they are also just RSI's...but held intact by the Matrix Mainframe itself. The MM will hold this image as long as the funeral ceremonies will last , in order to keep the "social illusion" stable [ it is another interesting question: what happens if someone reclaims an opening of the grave, Quincy or Columbo sort of thing...sorry I forgot the latin word..but you know...what will they encounter ? a greenish glowing nothing ? or will the MM create a simulation of a half-rotten corpse just when it's needed ?]. The MM creates the bodies, it holds them intact and it deletes them when it's logical in the context of the Matrix reality. But visitors from outside as the Rebels are, look the same but are a completely different thing)

Sorry if I wrote too much "for such a little thing" as beautiful Persephone would say, but I regard this either as a kind of goof or kind of Matrix-in-Matrix argument. I'm not sure. but something is different, "I can feel it"!

PiukNeo wrote:

The point here is not that the screw made the crew to me killed, but that either if the bomb had hit the Vigilant with or without the crew in it, the crew would have gotten out of the matrix and thus making the task incomplete, and Trinity anyways would have to go into the matrix to finish the job by herslef. Piukneo.

If this is what you're thinking, then that whole scene with the rusty bolt would be pointless? I don't think so - if the operators weren't dead, they would be able to fly out of there (in Enter the Matrix, the Logos ditched the bomb).

Cord, then why didn't the NEB went away and tried to shoot the incoming bomb?It was destroyed by it.....they had to escape from it...remember?
PiukNeo.

Ok, let’s put off the context in which the situation takes place in the movie(matrix 2): Three teams must accomplish a mission in order to leave ready the path of the One to enter the Source; Soren’s team, Neo’s team and Niobe’s team have to complete their own tasks. Neo’s team, as we already know, have to wait for the other two teams to finish their jobs, Niobe’s team have to destroy the nuclear reactor and Soren’s team must deactivate the emergency system. Now, before they even begin Neo talks with Trin to clear up some things that were in the air. Neo tells Trin to stay out of the matrix no matter what, and so, she does. Thus, Soren’s team replaces Trin’s place and job, they go and deactivate the emergency system to let Neo go into the Source. But it is here where the action gets fluttering, as the time passes, and every team accomplishes their tasks, the Vigilant and Soren’s team are hit by a bomb from some group of sentinels, therefore forcing Trin to get into the Matrix to save Neo’s team from exploding into peaces. Concordantly, each of Trin’s actions are made reality as the time goes on, Neo’s dreams are transformed into reality…into visions.
It is here were my point is. How can the machines have “guessed” every move from the three teams (the teams in the “real world”, not inside of the Matrix), how could the machines have “guessed” that Neo was going to tell Trin to stay off the Matrix during the mission, and how did they knew that if Neo did told her to stay out, how did they know which cause would affect something in order to make Trin go into the Matrix to finish the job, and make the choice of the One with the Architect possible?
Imagine this situation: Neo and Trin are talking, Neo DOES NOT tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix, instead he says everything’s alright. Thus, Trin gets inside Neo’s team, awaiting the other two to finish Soren’s team, thus maing the dream of Neo not from coming true. Now, imagine the opposite situation, where Neo DOES TELL Trin to stay out of the Matrix, and thus Soren’s team has to do the job, there are two possible situations in here; either Soren’s team gets killed by the bomb from the sentinels, or, they stay alive and finish the job, which concordantly will bring up a DIFERENT CHOICE when Neo is with the Architect, because Trin would have not entered the Matrix, and Neo’s dream wouldn’t have come true.(the other situation would be the one which is shown in the movie) Thus to keep the dream from coming true, they would have had to KNOW WHICH CAUSE would’ve brought Trin into the Matrix, vis a vis: killing Soren’s team. How did they know that by sending sentinels to destroy the Vigilant would bring Trin into the Matrix? There are two possible explanations; either they are super-gods, and know everything, or the “real world” is in fact been watched by some else, vis a vis: the “real world” is another Matrix, another way of CONTROL. This way the machines can observe and control every step of the teams, and can actually know which CAUSE would produce on making Trin to go into the Matrix, to cause an EFFECT; to make Trin to go in, making the choice of the One possible, and altogether the dream of Neo made reality.
Now many questions arise from these facts, some of them could be: “How did the machines know that Neo was having nightmares of Trin falling?” “How did they know if Neo was going to tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix?” ”How did they know if they needed to destroy the Vigilant and its crew to make Trin to go in and make the choice of the one possible?” One answer to this, besides the obvious one that I’m pointing out here (MWM THEORY), would be: every One from the past cycles have all had nightmares, but not all have had one of their love for someone, Trin in this case (as the Architect said, Neo experienced it in a far more specific way, vis a vis, LOVE), thus this argument or answer self contradicts. Besides every One is different and the machines can not take the risk on seeing how equal did this One become from the past one, past experiences CAN NOT PREDICT future situations.
My real point here is that the machines CAN NOT KNOW what dreams Neo was having, and all of the further actions which take place are also UNPREDICTABLE, they can not take the risk to “think they know” or have the past facts under control to “predict” some future situations; the actions which happened were not just coincidence, watch how by the time the movie is passing the shots of the mission of the three teams, and Morpheus talking with all the members, he says that he does not believe in coincidences or chances.(coincidence? NOPE, they put that in that exact time for a reason).

Also, how did the Oracle know that Neo wasn't sleeping? An knew what dreams he was having(or part of them a least)? I know that the last Ones might've had nightmares and thus it'll make this One predictable, but we all know that past experiences can not predict the future don't we? Every One is DIFERENT in its kind, the Oracle wouldn't have risked to say" I know you are not sleeping...." Ahhh, and don't come with the tipical responses of " the oracle knows everything...." Beacause we all know that she is nothing but a program and she know past experiences from the past cycles of the matrix, thus she has fragments of info. form past experiences.
PiukNeo.

Smith? are you there? What do you think about this theory on Neo's dreams?
PiukNeo.

I'm soooo sorry Piuk Neo - how long have you been waiting ?
I SEEM TO BE VERY MUCH DISTRACTED TONIGHT BY A GREAT PRESENCE - Leading me astray, so I will read your post and get back to you....
By the way have you visited the photo post site set-up by The Architect, yet?

It is also possible the Architect has accepted the failure of his 3rd Matrix, and he understands the only way machines will continue to exist is to balance the equation out, cause he knows smith will not with just destroy the dream world, while Smith is not acting in behalf of the Architect the machines kill Soren's crew to force Trinity into the Matrix... blah blah blah etc. (we've heard this before) He can also predict what Neo is going to do and he says so.
The Oracle said the path of the One is made by many, as a result it seems as if everything was NOT DESIGNED, but in case some things came to pass the machines had planned for those events. Every choice creates a new effect and the machines respond accordingly.