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Anonymous wrote:

A ship that really is 130 years old shouldn't be able to compete successuly with machines so advcanced to program a program like the Matrix

So if the ship is younger, then there was even less time for 5 Zions.

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We don't know for how long Morpheus had been looking for the One before he found Neo

Morpheus (to Neo): "You may have spent the last few years looking for me, but I've spent my entire life looking for you."

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Zion could have been created during the time of the first Matrix but not been strong enough...fight against the machines.

Architect: "this will be the 6th time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it"

Thus the first Zions had been most probably stronger. This could very well be, because maybe other weapons worked. Now they have only EMP and machine guns.

knnknn wrote:

So if the ship is younger, then there was even less time for 5 Zions.

Where is it said, that the Nebukadnezar (this isn't written correctly) has survived all previous Zions?

knnknn wrote:

Morpheus (to Neo): "You may have spent the last few years looking for me, but I've spent my entire life looking for you."

Damn, I forgot about this...
But, if thsi is true, the current Matrix/ Zion has to be existing for at least ((Morpheus' age) - (Morpheus' childhood) =~ 20) years. THis would put even more pressure on Morpheus' timeline than there is already...

knnknn wrote:

Architect: "this will be the 6th time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it" Thus the first Zions had been most probably stronger. This could very well be, because maybe other weapons worked. Now they have only EMP and machine guns.

Or, the machines had the time to get better weapons while humans had to start all over again after each Zion had to be destroyed. We can't know

Wotan wrote:

Where is it said, that the Nebukadnezar (this isn't written correctly) has survived all previous Zions?

Who else built it? The Zionites start with 23 people, eat bowls of snot and haven't ever seen chicken. I doubt that they can built flying ships. Please also remember, that the most freed are children.

The machines wouldn't built ships, too, with chairs for humans and monitors. A machine doesn't need that.

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Or, the machines had the time to get better weapons while humans had to start all over again after each Zion had to be destroyed. We can't know

Yes, or this.

knnknn wrote:

Who else built it? The Zionites start with 23 people, eat bowls of snot and haven't ever seen chicken. I doubt that they can built flying ships. Please also remember, that the most freed are children.

Are you sure that the former Zions had also started with 23? Or is it just the plan for this revolution.

There are actually 250 000 citizens of Zion. Scratch out the newbies and the ships crews. There is quite a number of clever folks. They are skillful in operating the computers.

Why shouldn't they care for sopisticated industries in the caves?

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Are you sure that the former Zions had also started with 23? Or is it just the plan for this revolution.

No, I am not sure, but the last one started also with little.

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There are actually 250 000 citizens of Zion. Scratch out the newbies and the ships crews. There is quite a number of clever folks. They are skillful in operating the computers. Why shouldn't they care for sopisticated industries in the caves?

You mean they built an underground city by their own? Not even nowadays this is possible. If you also consider that most of them are freed as children and from a Matrix that plays in the 80ies or so, this would be very astonishing.

knnknn wrote:

You mean they built an underground city by their own? Not even nowadays this is possible.

... and you know why. Every 100 meter the temperature increases about 0.5 degrees or so. (I couldn't recall the exact figure ... I think it is even more.) The people in deep mines already have serious problems to stand the heat. The conditions of earth must change dramatically to make a Zion really deep yonder possible.

So far for the time line: Add some million years.

I don't say that it is a strong argument for the matrix nature of Zion, simply a mismatch between the movie and reality.

But lets continue fantasizing about the origin of the Nebukadnezar. What about a recycled machine? Or build after an old design ... the blueprints may work since thousands of years.

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But lets continue fantasizing about the origin of the Nebukadnezar. What about a recycled machine? Or build after an old design ... the blueprints may work since thousands of years.

And children freed from the year 1880 can built computer chips? Sorry, the Neb is old stuff. It looks old and why didn't they built atom bombs after an old design to fight against the machines?

Just a question regarding those time lines:

We heard figures about 2069 and 2199. Then we are told about 6 cycles. The next generation of enginees and their very successors would get a hell of a job to create a ship like the Nebukadnezar and many others, including Zion in reality within 66 Years ...

Anyway, do we have any knowledge, that the time count runs without loops. Wouldn't it be an idea to restart each version at the same startingpoint as we ould do for a regression test?

Morpheus seem to have no knowledge about 6 versions. Why should he have an idea of absolute time?

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we are told about 6 cycles. The next generation of enginees and their very successors would get a hell of a job to create a ship like the Nebukadnezar and many others, including Zion in reality within 66 Years ...

Yep, exactly what I say. No chance they have.

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Anyway, do we have any knowledge, that the time count runs without loops

No, but we are talking about Zion. Thus Zion (when taking this timeline alone) is very probably part of a Matrix (and thus probably restarting, too)

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Morpheus seem to have no knowledge about 6 versions.

Not even about 1 previous one, although Smith told him and Persephone told him.

knnknn wrote:

Who else built it? The Zionites start with 23 people, eat bowls of snot and haven't ever seen chicken. I doubt that they can built flying ships. Please also remember, that the most freed are children.

But why then are there enough ships to (theoretically fight the machines? All the ships that were defending Zion have been destroyed ("After that, it was only a slaughter") except for the three that were with Morpheus of which one was also destryoed? If we see an analogy between the different Zion cycles (destruction, rebuilding with 24 inhabitants, growing, freeing more Matrix citizens, destruction) do the Zionists have more than one/ two ships to fight the attacking machines.

knnknn wrote:

The machines wouldn't built ships, too, with chairs for humans and monitors. A machine doesn't need that.

correct, so probably these ships are built by humans (or they don't exist, are in another Matrix and are just "replicated" for humans so that they feel like they have them.)

Just-a-Program wrote:

Are you sure that the former Zions had also started with 23? Or is it just the plan for this revolution.

The architect hints at this because he shows this analogy to Neo. ("YOu are now supposed to...")

knnknn wrote:

You mean they built an underground city by their own? Not even nowadays this is possible. If you also consider that most of them are freed as children and from a Matrix that plays in the 80ies or so, this would be very astonishing.

Who else built it if it is not just an illusion, created by the machines (MiM)? THe architect says that it has been destroyed before and as I understand destroyed there isn't anything left afterwards sofisticated enough to enable huamns to survive close to the center of the earth

knnknn wrote:

And children freed from the year 1880 can built computer chips? Sorry, the Neb is old stuff. It looks old and why didn't they built atom bombs after an old design to fight against the machines?

Who says that only children have been freed? At least the one selecting the people to help him should be old enough to teach the others.

In order to build an atom bomb you need fusion and uranium, or better: plutonioum, which you can't get from every street vendor. It's only so easy to build an atom bomb nowadays because there is enouigh plutonium flying around in the world

knnknn wrote:

Quote: we are told about 6 cycles. The next generation of enginees and their very successors would get a hell of a job to create a ship like the Nebukadnezar and many others, including Zion in reality within 66 Years ... Yep, exactly what I say. No chance they have. Quote: Anyway, do we have any knowledge, that the time count runs without loops No, but we are talking about Zion. Thus Zion (when taking this timeline alone) is very probably part of a Matrix (and thus probably restarting, too) Quote: Morpheus seem to have no knowledge about 6 versions. Not even about 1 previous one, although Smith told him and Persephone told him.

So we can be sure more or less that Zion is in another Matrix?
This might be true but why then doesn't anybody suspect this. All of the smart Zionists should be aware of the fact that they can't be sure that they are in reality. They should be knowing of this "Once you dream you cannot be sure to be awake" and "Once you enter the holo dec you cannot be sure you have left it"-theories. If the timeline Morpheus puts up (and probably this is the official timeline in Zion since he talks of "we" in Matrix one when he explains it to Neo) is under so heavy pressure as we have found out, why then doesn't anybody of the Zionists suspect anything. (Or this this just something or two brothers didn't think of? After all this is highly complex and even they could have made little mistakes like this one. Even Gene Roddenberry made mistakes when he created Star Trek although it is very well-created)

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But why then are there enough ships to (theoretically fight the machines? All the ships that were defending Zion have been destroyed ("After that, it was only a slaughter") except for the three that were with Morpheus of which one was also destryoed?

How many ships Zion has is unclear. From the council you could say that there are about 20 ships.

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Who says that only children have been freed?

Not only, but mostly. Look at the temple gathering. How young all are.
The others (who were freed 100 years ago) have been freed from a technology state of 1890. Not too much to built an underground city, too.

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It's only so easy to build an atom bomb nowadays because there is enouigh plutonium flying around in the world

OK, then disregard atom bombs. It was just an example. Why not letting gas into the pipes to Zion? Or whatever weapon? Thus it is very likely that the machines PLAY with Zionites for 100 years until Zion is finally large enough

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This might be true but why then doesn't anybody suspect this.

Because the Zionites have no knowledge about 5 previous Zions. They don't know what the Architect knows. For them it's just getting out of the Matrix and be in Zion.

why is everyone putting so much stock in morpheus' timeline? in many ways he is very uninformed about the history of zion. he's probably way off. maybe even fed mis-information that makes it more believable that "his" is the first matrix.

upfront let me say i think the MIM theory is boring, and i hope it dies at the release of M3.

with that said, it helps to remember that zion (in the real world) is still a form of "control." neo says the same thing about the "prophecy." some people say the same thing about religion and politics in our world. if you control the way a majority think, you can control their direction. so, the prophecy simply takes care of moving the zion-ites along the path of the ONE.

i'm betting that the machines ultimately build elements of control into zion. the machines probably built zion. they probably even "leave behind" the technology to hack into the matrix and free people from it. or they at least leave behind enough old parts that give humans a head start in making it.

the neb could be the equivilant of the hand-me-down underware we got from our older siblings. at least the parts have to be "not-so-new." why not give the humans weapons, you know how many of them there are down there. its calculated risk. its not a problem.

the machines could even have already made multiple "zions" that are ready to throw 23 aching refugees into. if the locations were far enough away from the currently inhabited zion, it would probably be undetected.

anyway, all this to say that the machines could do just as much in the physical "real" world to manipulate, conrol, and make zion as possible as they could do in a matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix!!

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i'm betting that the machines ultimately build elements of control into zion. the machines probably built zion. they probably even "leave behind" the technology to hack into the matrix and free people from it.

So, why not build a Zion simulation, which is so much easier? Isn't building real houses and real ships more boring?

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the machines could even have already made multiple "zions" that are ready to throw 23 aching refugees into. if the locations were far enough away from the currently inhabited zion, it would probably be undetected.

Hey, cool idea. Have added it.

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matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix-within-a-matrix!!

In fact, there is no Matrix within a Matrix. It's only 1 Matrix. Everything else is a simulation within this 1 Matrix.
However,

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the machines could do just as much in the physical "real" world to manipulate, conrol, and make zion as possible as they could do in a matrix-within-a-matrix...

is not quite true, because it's so much more ineffective to first build multiple underground Zions to destry them later.

knnknn wrote:

Quote: So, why not build a Zion simulation, which is so much easier? Isn't building real houses and real ships more boring?.... ...it's so much more ineffective to first build multiple underground Zions to destry them later.

i have to give you that. it is easier to make everything in a simulation. it is inefficient to build and then destroy. if it's possible for the machines to do it virtually, i'll bet they would. it's kind of like how its more fun to play video games rather that actually work up the energy to get outside and have to endure the sun. i dream of a day when work is only "virtual" work! more time for matrix-explained.com HA!

"BUT, everybody has a big BUTT simone"

maybe the machines don't have a choice. at some level you have to face Reality. humans can't eat virtual food. it would be easier that planting and harvesting but it doesn't work. i'm not trying to make a point by being oversimplistic, i just can't think of another way to say...

ah forget it. i can't think of anything else to say about the whole matrix-in-a-matirx thing. i frickin give up!

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... at some level you have to face Reality. humans can't eat virtual food. it would be easier that planting and harvesting but it doesn't work.

It all depends on the view point and mind set. If the world around you looks consistent and all what happens make sense to you, there is no reason to take it for virtual. Unless you have doubts, realizes holes or unanswered questions. In contrast, playing computer games or wtching movies it shouldn't be too difficult to sense the difference.

As long as the world view is consistent, it explains enough to consider it real. An it probably is, to a certain extent ...

there was a comic on the matrix site where the machines got a guy from the matrix help them in the real world, he had to fly something in space i'm not sure i can't remember, but it was a suicide mission and his request was to live his entire lifetime (have family and grow old an retire and whatnot). so they made this program for him and before he died on the mission he was able to live this life inside his mind in only a couple moments or seconds.

thus stated, the matrix could be only a couple hundred years old, the neb is made before the war using components the machines made in 01 (the hover technology) the neb was made in the usa. the ships have been worked on by the zionites much like the millenium falcon was worked on by han and chewie. they are looking a couple hundred years old, and they don't seem to have any turtle wax in zion.

in the lifetime of an average person (how old would the average person live in the real world womb?) you could live multiple lives, as there are multiple dreams that you have while you sleep that could last 5 minutes or 5 years in your mind. a thirty-five year old man could live several lifetimes, say 6 lifetimes if they all lasted roughly 6 years.

the machines can control time inside the matrix, it does not have to be in 'real time' 24 hours a day as in zion though at this point in the films it does seem to be running in real time.

the history inside the matrix does not necessarily have to go back further than the 1950s if even that. in the book 1984, they didn't know what year it actually was because he who controls the future controls the past and who controls the past controls the present or something to that effect.

do the characters in the matrix have a childhood? we see that neo has childhood through the memories that the architect shows. but did they actually happen to neo? or does he just think that they did? were they just implanted into his memory, like all of history is implanted into the collective consciousness of the people plugged into the matrix?

those memories implanted could just as easily be erased, setting a blank page for the next matrix incarnation.

thus, a matrix, first second or otherwise, could last only a couple of years (actual time)
first matrix kills lots of crops, but they have them all over so there are still humans around,
the second matrix could be worked on and assimilated within a week, we do not know how fast or how many machines are working on it. they could be thousands times faster than the human mind who knows?

the matrix could be only a couple hundred years old because of this, maybe neo is actually the one who originally freed the first people, though he would have died and then been reincarnated back into the growing fields, but that could be anywhere from a day after he first died to a hundred years later.

let us say neo was reincarnated a hundred years after he freed the first people of zion. but in this lifetime, he has already gone through it 5 times.
not different people, not different neos, the same neo but different matrices. version 1.6 or whatever.
the only place where you can die and still live is in your dreams, and since the matrix is essentially a dreamworld, why couldn't neo have lived those 5 times and gone back to the source to start the next matrix which would give the machines a better understanding or more to work into the next version.
the statement of the architect, the implied statement that they have destroyed zion and are getting more efficient could be an outright lie

if the neb is made in the year 2069, we can assume that the war between man and machine came shortly after that date and the surviving humans were assimilated into the matrix system. of course the ships were not made for the machines to operate. but the machines did make several components for them in 01. 2199 seems too short a time scale being only 130 years from the time the neb was made. but if neo was reincarnated a hundred years from the time of his death, this timescale seems to work but it would most likely be another hundred or so.

the flaw with this theory? how could neo have lived 5 previous times inside the matrix during his one lifetime, would he have been reinserted into the matrix each time? wouldn't the people of zion know if the matrix has been restarted?

instead of being in the collective matrix with the whole of humanity, neo could be in a separate matrix built only for him. zion would go on freeing people in the collective matrix while neo is living in his solitary matrix.

why would neo be in solitary? the machines know who he is and what he is capable of, maybe they recognized some pattern in his mind or whatever that they know he is the original one that freed the first humans.

while neo is in solitary, this is the trial for the machines, architect or whoever is in control, to find out all they can about neo hence the 5 previous incarnations.

a program that no longer has a purpose... the oracle perhaps, who has brought everyone together to bring about the one who will save them all, knew about neo's solitary and sought to put him into the collective matrix (which he is in now, being the 6th incarnation)
the rogue program of the merovingian, though who or what his role is has not fully been revealed, obviously has some skills inside the matrix, it could be that he has met neo several times while neo was in solitary, if you were an rogue program that deals in info like mero who has survived for so long, do you think you could do some matrix hopping? just why is he so dangerous?

zion could have been destroyed by the machines in neo's solitary matrix because he failed, or did just what the machines wanted him to. neo's matrix would encompass the 21st century matrix and the 'real world' zion.
he would not know of the collective matrix and the actual real zion and the collective matrix and the real zion would not know of him.

morpheus searching his entire life for the one... he did not find him because maybe he was not where he was looking, which was the collective matrix. he was only found in this 6th of neo's incarnations which he is now in the collective matrix. it could be that neo is now actually freed and actually in the real live zion, that has never been destroyed.

the anomaly of the collective matrix that neo is in is the fact of trinity and love. this is the sole difference of this and his previous incarnations because the machines did not put in a love interest for him while he was in solitary.
the other anomaly is that of smith.

why would not the agents know that neo is the one when the architect knew and had him in solitary? why would they be told? there is no reason for them to know

this has been long and rather drawn out....

we see that the first matrices did not have to last hundreds of years, or even a year, trial and error.
the machines could put the history inside the matrix back how ever long they want, though this history would most likely be flawed and based soley on the accounts in history books/discs made by humans. so the knowledge that the machines have would work better with the time they are more familiar with, the most recorded would be the 20th century.

how could the humans of zion free humans inside the matrix if there is no hardline? no phones, no lines, no computers or modern tech.

so we must assume that the history inside the matrix does not go back too far. the rest of history was implanted.

this is not a matrix within matrix theory. it is that there could be the 2 separate matrices, the one for all humanity, and the solitary one for neo. though when neo is placed within the collective matrix, the solitary no longer exists, so there is only that one matrix. now the zion is really real.
and this time its for all the marbles. or ball bearings.


of course we will not know for sure until we see the final movie
and all of this could just be an exercise in thought
excuse me if this has been discussed previously, i have not read all of the forum on this site.

this like all other theories could make some sense but may be no where close to the truth

If the machines have a vested interest in the perpetuation of the human race, then they could provide these vehicles and this city. The humans would believe them to be remnants of the war between humans and machines, which humans ultimately lost, and the machines could manufacture these things for the humans and make them appear aged when, in fact, they were created brand new.

This would be a ridiculously easy task if Zion is a matrix within a matrix.

Even if Zion really IS the real world, it would be simple enough, I guess.

But the fact is, the Matrix must be at least six hundred years old. And if the humans of zion are operating within the real world, their equipment must be centuries-old, or else they are being provided with their equipment and technology by the machines.

this would undoubtedly be perceived as a cop-out by most fans of the matrix. I would be severely disappointed if this was how the WAchowskis explained things, and most others would be, as well. For the matrix story to be satisfying, the Wachowski's will have to resolve it with a real-time explanation.