»Perception«

There have been many theories about the philosophical interpretations of the Matrix Trilogy posted on theses boards - no two completely alike. But the two basic premises that particularly stand out to me are as follows:

1. Neo was lead by faith - in spite of reason - to the destruction of his false self.

OR

2. The “Matrix within a Matrix” theory - The Oracle was just another measure of control used by The Matrix to purge itself of an unproductive energy source, leading a schizophrenic to his inevitable suicide.

I believe this was deliberately left open to interpretation.

Just like the “pickle” Neo found himself in – we are left to make up our own damn minds.

There were no absolutes along Neo’s path. He was always forced to “decide” for himself what to believe - just as we are (even if those “choices” have already been determined).

That's my $.02

You Decide wrote:

There have been many theories about the philosophical interpretations of the Matrix Trilogy posted on theses boards - no two completely alike. But the two basic premises that particularly stand out to me are as follows:

The most important 'philosophy' in the Matrix films are the esoteric teachings. These are very old teachings that were hidden from the mass because the people wouldn't understand them (funny, as it seems that alot of people don't understand the movies either).

Alongside these teachings there is also symbolism to Buddhism, Gnostic Christianity and Christianity, whom in a way are all derived from the esoteric teachings I think.

Quote:

1. Neo was lead by faith - in spite of reason - to the destruction of his false self.

This is correct. In the esoteric teachings everything is a divine plan. What matters is how the human experiences the events in his/her life. The feeling of choice is genuine in the dimension of space and time, but in fact everything is already been determined in the divine plan.

Quote:

2. The “Matrix within a Matrix” theory - The Oracle was just another measure of control used by The Matrix to purge itself of an unproductive energy source, leading a schizophrenic to his inevitable suicide.

The esoteric teachings say that we are ALL god, because we are part of the same cosmic consciousness. In the movies, everything comes originally from the Source, so they are all part of the Source, all part of the cosmic consciousness: they are all god --> The Oracle: "we are all here to do what we are all here to do".

So even the Oracle is not fully powerfull. She just plays her part and even she requires believe in the end.

Neo is not schizoprhenic by all means. Smith is the expression of his ego, while Neo is the expression of his soul. In the esoteric teachings a human has to embrace his/her ego with love to really become enlightened. So that is what Neo literally does: he accepts Smith with all his heart.

Quote:

There were no absolutes along Neo’s path. He was always forced to “decide” for himself what to believe - just as we are (even if those “choices” have already been determined).

In the esoteric teachings it is said that you should listen to the voice of your soul that speaks through your heart and you should not listen to meisures of control (the Architect), your ego (Smith) or other humans whom are driven by ego (commander Lock and captain Roland).

Niobe understood this because she listened to the advise from the Oracle (from "Enter the Matrix"): "the heart never speaks, but you have to listen to it to know".

You Decide wrote:

2. The “Matrix within a Matrix” theory

OMG

a shizophrenic that is lead to his inevitable suicide you say,yes,nut I think the system leads him to his suicide because he is a great danger about the hole sytem dont you think?may be thats one of the messages of the movie -if you understand the matrix dont pretend you are a messiah-keep your knowledge for yourself.and there is another think which I think has the potential to become a topic of a new forum:
WHAT IF THE WHOLE SCENE ABOUT NEO WAKING UP OUT OF HIS COCCOON IS PART OF THE SIMULATION?

Maybe a nice thread for the chit chat section: WHAT IF KI8TO IS A COMPLETE MORAN?

Neo wasn't lead by faith. He was lead by the threat of utimate destruction. He saw an option to prevent it and siezed the day. Nothing more. I promise you. Please believe me!

Hi Mobil,

I'm glad you responded to my post. I think you're a terrific poster with a very deep understanding of the trilogies’ philosophical implications. I often find myself agreeing with virtually everything you say. Your Architect/Neo dialogue transcription was brilliant and spot-on.

I am very aware of Gnostic/Christian/Buddhist analogies and symbolisms throughout the films, and have always understood them to imply that Neo’s path would end with the annihilation of the ego.

However, I’m also quite certain that my “MWAM” and schizophrenia references probably indicated to most that I am a relative beginner regarding the discussion of Matrix theories.

I suppose in comparison to many of you, that is probably correct.

My use of the term “schizophrenic” was not to imply a negative connotation, but to loosely infer societies’ impression of someone who manages to break free of consensus reality - another quick diagnosis used to categorize, prescribe, and keep things in relative order.

If you ask me, the medical diagnosis of schizophrenia is the most arbitrary, subjective and abused diagnosis of any and all.

It is a common misconception that one must experience visual or auditory hallucinations to be diagnosed as schizophrenic. This is false. A simple and gradual stray from herd-mentality is usually enough.

Here is a wikipedia entry on schizophrenia.

en.wikipedia.org...

Quote:

Schizophrenia is a psychiatric disorder denoting an often chronic, major mental illness primarily affecting thinking, with attendant difficulties in perception of reality, which in turn can affect behavior and emotion. The term schizophrenia comes from the Greek words σχίζω (schizo, split or divide) and φρενός (phrenos, mind) and can be translated as "shattered mind." The primary sign of schizophrenia is considered fragmentation of basic thought structure and cognition, and the inability to distinguish between internal and external experience. People with schizophrenia may report hallucinations or be observed responding to them and may express clearly delusional beliefs. Social or occupational dysfunction, a number of secondary signs, and the lack of an identifiable organic cause may be used to confirm the diagnosis. Mainstream research has suggested that both biological and sociocultural influences are important contributing factors, with current research often focusing on the influences of biochemical and genetic factors on the neurobiology of the brain. The status of schizophrenia is considered controversial by some, who claim a lack of objectivity in the stated diagnostic criteria. There is no objective biological test for schizophrenia, and diagnosis is based on the self-reported experiences of the patient combined with the observations of the psychiatrist or other responsible clinician. In spite of its name, schizophrenia does not involve a 'split personality', and should not be confused with disassociative identity disorder as it often is in literature, film and other forms of popular culture. There is also little association with schizophrenia and a predisposition toward aggressive behavior.

By that definition, many posters on these boards could be easily diagnosed – not to mention Neo himself. Coincidentally, schizophrenia also effects ~ 1% of the population.

I myself do not necessarily believe the “MWAM” as the ultimate theory per say, but I do believe that it was intentionally left open for interpretation to leave the viewer with his own conclusions to derive.

….and if it turns out that that the two theories are in fact one and the same – the social organism purging itself of the defunct individual, resulting in suicide - and - “The One” coming to terms with the duality of mind – then that would also not surprise me in the least.

phantomprowler wrote:

Neo wasn't lead by faith. He was lead by the threat of utimate destruction. He saw an option to prevent it and siezed the day. Nothing more. I promise you. Please believe me!

Point taken.

But did he also not need to believe that he could in fact stop the annihilation of the entire human species?

It didn't matter what Neo believed. It was either head back to Zion and die a horrible death at the clawed hands of the sentinel army with the rest of Zion or take a shot with the Deus man.

phantomprowler wrote:

It didn't matter what Neo believed. It was either head back to Zion and die a horrible death at the clawed hands of the sentinel army with the rest of Zion or take a shot with the Deus man.

Don't get me wrong, I totaly understand what you're saying, but I also believe that not only did he need to be forced with an ultimatum, but was also required to have a great deal of faith - which I think is one of the major messages of the entire trilogy.

Don't forget - he still needed to make a decision.

There was definitely a lot of faith based issues in the trilogy.

i.e. Neo's struggle with whether or not to trust the Oracle after finding out she was a program.

But I hardly think the salvation of Zion was one of those instances. For Morpheus maybe, but not Neo. I mean having to decide whether or not to try and do something to stop the masacre of a quarter million of your homies or head back and catch the show is hardly a test of faith.

How much of a monster would the guy have to be?

Ok, I'm beginning to see where we differ.

You've concluded that there are only two possible destinations for Neo to choose from - Zion, or The Machine Mainframe.

While this is correct in a sense, there is also the possibility that he finds himself back in Mobil - which is precisely where he wound up the last time he lost his faith.

I think it's also possible that we're just arguing semantics. I'm not necessarily saying that he had faith that it would work, but that he finally believed in himself enough that he had to at least try;

Quote:

ORACLE: Everything that has a beginning has an end. I see the end coming. I see the darkness spreading. I see death. And you are all that stands in his way.

Quote:

NEO: Trinity... There's something I have to say. Something you need to understand. I know I'm supposed to go. But beyond that - I don't know...

Quote:

MORPHEUS: No, he wasn't. Neo is doing what he believes he must do. I don't know if what he's doing is right, and I don't know if he'll reach the machine city. And if he does, I don't know what he can do to save us. But I do know that as long as there's a single breath in his body, he will not give up. And neither can we.

You Decide wrote:

Ok, I'm beginning to see where we differ. Phantomprowler: You haven't even started to see where we differ. Sorry to say. You've concluded that there are only two possible destinations for Neo to choose from - Zion, or The Machine Mainframe. What the hell does that mean? Neo's chose is between Zion and no Zion. Semantics? Give me a break! You say that Neo had faith in himself. I'm telling you that there was no "himself". Case in point: Why was he so willing to sacrifice himself to the big Deux man if he thought himself that important? Quote: ORACLE: Everything that has a beginning has an end. I see the end coming. I see the darkness spreading. I see death. And you are all that stands in his way. Quote: MORPHEUS: No, he wasn't. Neo is doing what he believes he must do. I don't know if what he's doing is right, and I don't know if he'll reach the machine city. And if he does, I don't know what he can do to save us. But I do know that as long as there's a single breath in his body, he will not give up. And neither can we.

This is an exaple of Morpeus's faith. Not Neo's.

See me where you see me.

M1 and M2 were mostly about having faith in an illusion: the Prophecy.

M3 is more, with both Morpheus and Neo, about having faith in oneself.

If you have faith in a believe system, you are in fact denying your own responsibility in the Universe. You are doing (horrible) things in the name of that believe system, so that you can hide from your individual responsibility.

Neo had so much faith in himself at the end of M2, that he dared to step out of the believe system (meisure of control, which so many religions are in this world) and make his own choice.

Offcourse Neo's choice was mainly caused by his ego: he needed Trinity so bad, that he chose her and thus his ego, Smith, was allowed to grow to a higher proportion.

The growing of the ego is not a bad thing. The ego has to develop itself before a human may or may not realize that the ego only creates a negative circle of drama.

What Neo did was first giving in to his ego and after that he realized what kind of consequences this had and he went out to take his responsibility for this. He even says to Trinity that there is a big chance that he will not survive it, so there he is already willing to give up his connection with Trinity.

So in the end it is about someone taking individual responsibilility: he deals with his ego, then embraces it with love and then returns to Source, which in the end is everyone's faith.

We all have to return to the Source, but we are free to choose how and when we do this. That's why it took six lives before the Prophecy was truly fulfilled.

As the divine plan (the Source) is free of the dimensions of time and space, you may conclude that faith exists, the individual only chooses the path to walk.

"It's inevitable!"

Who the crap is posting for me? The last two wasn't me. Or maybe I'm loosing it.

I fell into the Twilight Zone.