»mad thinking ?«

I am not sure to adore these eloquent phrases or rating it just quer. This evolution stuff looks odd, also the apperent machine vs. human conflict. But there is obviously insight when you quoted:

"To be a god, at least to be a creative one, one must relinquish control and embrace uncertainty. Absolute control is absolutely boring. To birth the new, the unexpected, the truly novel-that is, to be genuinely surprised-one must surrender the seat of power to the mob below. "

Anyway, the word 'mob' is quite irritating. Is it just to claim thinking poetry?

I intendent to reply to:
matrix-explained.com...

Just-a-Program wrote:

Absolute control is absolutely boring.

Absolute control is boring, being controlled 100% is unwell. Is the best ratio 50%/50% ? 50% expected/ 50% unexpected events?

It is no use to argue for ratio. The fact is that both extremes are unberable. That seems to be th fundamental problem of any god: To get a setting, in which personalities can rise.

In so far Matrix reflects truely our reality in some aspects. The problem of free will and determinism is one of the most challengig subjects of the movie. Absolute freedom is also boring as well, implying no destination, no restriction, no challenge.

By setting the destination externally it is freedom to reply 'Yes' or 'No', blue or red pill, right or left door. But these decisions are not unbound ...

when you say, "That seems to be th fundamental problem of any god: To get a setting, in which personalities can rise." i'm not sure what you're meaning. i've never been a god, i pretty sure you aren't, so how do we know how hard of a problem it is?

i agree with you that the story reflects our reality. i think the "problem of free will and determinism" you refer to, could be said better by saying, "the problem of 'understanding/comprehending' free will and determinism is one of the most challenging subjects of the movie."

the difficulty of the question free will/determinism (in our real world) is reflected in the many different reactions we see to it. there are beliefs and theories that pretty much cover every possibility between there is no god/no fate to god controls everything and we are puppets.

i've actually abandoned the question. frankly i don't care anymore. my belief in God is founded in things even hard to explain to somebody. they make less sense. but somehow are more real than any logical answer.

just like the characters in the movie are told that only their choices stand between them and the future, we have to make similar leaps of faith (in whatever we believe).

0x587e1a2c wrote:

i think the "problem of free will and determinism" you refer to, could be said better by saying, "the problem of 'understanding/comprehending' free will and determinism is one of the most challenging subjects of the movie." ... just like the characters in the movie are told that only their choices stand between them and the future, we have to make similar leaps of faith (in whatever we believe).

The solutution of the old problem is the explanation of the Oracle: You already made your choice ... It only needs to understand it. Well, I don't agree fully with this answer, but it has it's charme. From my personal perspective, I do have the choice and responsibility for my actions, regardless of any knowledge of any being, which resides out of time.

Any tricky construction or quips to withdraw the power of choice has to be fought just like the Smith, as it is the real enemy, threatening my personal value.

Please do me a favor: Expand on ... only their choices stand between them and the future, we have to make similar leaps of faith

Just-a-Program wrote:

Any tricky construction or quips to withdraw the power of choice has to be fought just like the Smith, as it is the real enemy, threatening my personal value.

i like the way you put that. there's no way anyone feels good about the possibility that their individual choices are impotent.

Just-a-Program wrote:

Please do me a favor: Expand on ... only their choices stand between them and the future, we have to make similar leaps of faith

so, the Oracle is intuitive. somehow she has some perception of the future. she tells Neo "You already made the choice..." At this point she's introduced the possibility that his future is determined/ordered by something. well on the otherhand, Neo is the culmination of "Choice" or "The power to choose." at least inside the matrix. So, how could anything inside the matrix know what he is going to choose? Frankly, i wish i knew.
In M1 the Oracle tells neo something like, "you will have to choose if morpheus lives or dies." in that scene it's not revealed if she knows what he'll do or not. but, there is a moment on the Neb when neo makes a choice based on his faith that he can save morpheus. he makes this choice to the gasps of trinity and tank who call it suicide and insane. nevertheless, he knows he can do it. This is the similarity we share. there are some pretty crazy choices people make that are based on faith. Faith not just in the religious context but in a hunch about unseen and unknown stuff.

what i find mind-numbing is the conflict between the reality of our power to make choices and (what i believe is) the reality of a God that still somehow knows our choices. obviously the second part of that statement is arguable. (i've made my leap of faith, but don't worry i still have respect for yours.)

Oh Dear, I like your style

Quote:

there's no way anyone feels good about the possibility that their individual choices are impotent.

Personally I like to agree, but this doesn't apply to all. Look at Merowingian: He uses his 'Insight' to feel better and to behave as he like. Ther is no more personal responsibility. He feels free in another sense, no more restricted by moral considerations. I am not sure if he inconsistently still belief in the back of his mind that he is in control. In fact, he is not, because his personalty has already been diluted and his power is the mindless power of a shadow.

Amazingly, there are many who shares his mind set. You won't have any problem to find them. May be we got some posters who like to defend this position.

Quote:

what i find mind-numbing is the conflict between the reality of our power to make choices and (what i believe is) the reality of a God that still somehow knows our choices. obviously the second part of that statement is arguable.

If so, what is the problem? Further, are you sure to identify my position?

0x587e1a2c wrote:

i've never been a god

Whoo-ooo, do you mean in this life time, in your last life time or in a life time before that?

0x587e1a2c wrote:

frankly i don't care anymore. my belief in God is founded in things even hard to explain to somebody.

But somehow your belief is affiliated with the belief that YOU have never been a god.

Just-a-Program wrote:

You already made your choice ... It only needs to understand it. Well, I don't agree fully with this answer, but it has it's charme.

The Oracle's explanation is most valid in a predetermined computerized world. A charme "just a program" falls for.

Just-a-Program wrote:

He uses his 'Insight' to feel better and to behave as he like. I am not sure if he inconsistently still belief in the back of his mind that he is in control.

He says:
"Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without."

He might consider himself as one of those with power. Thus it wouldn't be inconsistent

knnknn wrote:

The Oracle's explanation is most valid in a predetermined computerized world. A charme "just a program" falls for.

But this computerized world isn't a closed system as it got influenced by outside forces.

Or do you think of a super layer enclosing both the so-called real world and the Matrix layer. What made you think the term 'computerized' would have any meaning?

knnknn wrote:

He says: "Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without." He might consider himself as one of those with power. Thus it wouldn't be inconsistent

The sentence itself is an illusion. If choice exists for an elite distingué then choice is no more an illusion but a sparse privilige. If there are more free 'agents' than one, the system gets out of control and the results are unpredictable. Further, Merowingian justified his own actions wth the cause-and-effect necessity ... and Persiphone showed him how silly this argument was.

Merowingian is either too blind to see or a blatant liar. I guess the second ... the Wacholskis carved this character to demonstrate the weakness of this position.

Well, so far we don't know whether even Neo isn't a program. Thus we cannot talk about outside forces. Neo and Trinity may be inside forces and Zion unreal.

Let's wait...