»The Matrix is Hell, Machine World is Heaven«

There are way too many longwinded explanations on here, so I'll try to keep this short and to the point.

The Matrix is a symbol of Hell, and the Machine world is a symbol of Heaven (sounds weird, i know, but bear with me)

First I'll start with the matrix. There are many characteristics of Hell in the matrix. There are also programs that fulfill the roles that inhabit your typical hell.

- Merovingian (a.k.a the Devil) He is in a position of control over most of the matrix (second only to the architect in my opinion). He is dressed in red while in "Club Hel". Morpheus also tries to make a deal with him (deal with a devil allusion (and no i didn't misspell illusion, i meant allusion))

-Persephone is her namesake, in greek mythology the goddess persephone is married to hades.

- The three bouncers outside of club hel (a.k.a cerberus)- I believe they are symbolizing cerberus, the three headed dog who guarded the gates (elevator) to hades (club hel)

- The trainman and his train symbolize the River Styx and that creepy boatman. In case some of you don't know, the River Styx in greek mythology was the path to hell (a.k.a the matrix).

Now this next part is assuming that the Merovingian is an exile and not one of the programs that were in one of the original matrixes.

If Merovingian were an exile, that would mean that he was cast out of the machine world (heaven), into the matrix (hell). This is just like story of Lucipher being banished from Heaven.

Part Two: machine world is heaven
This is literally represented by the golden, serene glow that neo sees the machine world covered in.

Also, Neo mentions "The Fields". This sounds a lot like the Elysian Fields, Greek mythological Heaven.

Elements of Heaven:

-Deus Ex machina and the source (God)- The head honcho in charge of the machine world. The source is where everything began, where everything came from, the thing that created everything, just like god did.

-The architect (the saint who guards the gates to Heaven)- Now forgive me, I'm not catholic so i don't know his name, but apparently there is supposed to be a saint at the gates of heaven who reads you your life story and decides whether or not you can get into heaven. The architect watches over the door that leads to the source (god). Also, the architect shows Neo his life story in the tv screens in the white room. This sounds a lot like that saint i mentioned (is it peter...?)

-Seraph (an angel)- First let's start with his name. Seraph= Seraphim= a type of angel. Therefore seraph would be a part of heaven. His golden glow helps to confirm that the machien world is heaven, since he is an exile from the machine world and has the golden glow.

Where does Zion fit in? !

lol i dunno, purgatory?

St. Peter is the man who guards the gates of heaven.

The anology is correct. The matrix is hell, the machine world is heaven, and zion is middle earth, the fallen world that exists for the purpose of our trials. This is why the matrix in a matrix idea is so absurd.

But to go one step further, the matrix is not the literal hell of fire and brimstone. It is the earth that Lucifer, who has fallen and becomes the devil, now rules over. It was to be the perfect Eden, but with out own fallen nature we rebelled against that now live in a world controlled by the Merv. We can partake of the red pill, red apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and be cast out into a fallen world, zion.

While in this world, we seek salvation in the One, who leads us back to heaven, the machine world. As stated in the Second Rennaisance, the machines were pure. As was stated in Reloaded, we need machines to survive, not on a basic level, but on a higher level. Just as the machines need humans to survive, not on a basic level, but on a higher level. They too seek to feel, as we seek to advance.

By joining with the gods created in our own image, we become more advanced as the machines do by joining with the gods of our own creation.



What? It all boils down to control. Ultimate control is the ability to destroy something, to smash it to bits, as both sides have shown. Or we can choose to understand the why. Why does it exist? Why do we exist? Why do the machine's exist? Can AI have a soul? I think that was answered rather well in Revolutions. Now comes the step for them to feel. And this won't happen until those of earth (zion), can find peace with those of heaven (machine world).

I don't think matrix is the hell. Initially, it was created as a paradise for human mind but people rejected it. So, the matrix was redesigned to resemble the Earth.

For pod-people living in matrix, Zion is the heaven.

For programms in matrix, Machine world is the heaven. That is the place where AIs, the machine gods, live.

So, middle-earth is the matrix - place where people meets programms/machines on equalized level.

The problem is control.

Machine control matrix and through matrix and the prophecy, also the human world of Zion is being controled.

What Neo finally did, is that he released both chains of control and allowed people to meet machines on truly equal level in matrix.

What Merovingian desired was also control. He is truly devilish figure. I guess he used to be an AI in Machine world but he was exiled ("When we first came here ..." - to the matrix) because of his desire for power (and that is - control of all he is able to control). Maybe he even entered the matrix voluntarily but turned to be bad - was lured by power (and that could be similar to the story of Melkor/Morgoth in the tales of Tolkien's Middleearth)

OK. I see where you're going with this. But I still see the matrix as a paradise lost, but through Neo's sacrifice it is now a regained, this time with all the systems of control released, hence the elimination of the septic green color that infused the matrix and the return of paradisacal colors.

I disagree with Zion being heaven, there is nothing heavenly about it. It is also a paradise lost, a part of a place that humans so passionatly destroyed and corrupted. Yes, it is a new Jerusalem, so to speak, but what of the traditional Zion of the Bible? It was taken up into heaven when all its inhabitants were of one mind and faith. Through their own disobediance to share this world with the machines, the humans decided to exit the garden, and enter a fallen world of night. Likewise, through disobediance the humans rejected the matrix as a heaven and a traditional Hell and embraced it as damnation, a time of non-progression, where the matrix is to be recycled over and over as it feeds on the very souls of the humans plugged into it. The machines have taken the very essence of man and implimented it into their own souls. They have become the gods, but what is a god without mortals. This is why none will advance without the other. Both must be equal, and in this I agree with you.

Now, the anology is flipped on its head when viewed from the machine perspective, and this is where your last anology comes from, and I can agree with you there. But I still stand with my own analogy when applying from the human perspective.

This is exactly the point I waited for before joining the conversation.

Now you see that the Matrix and the Machine World are different things for humans and machines.

You can see it in many perspectives. Its very interpretive. And I love all the interpretations cause they do make sense.

Zion is definately not limbo, mobil ave is obviouly it.
But the machine city definately represents heaven if that's what you want to call it. Here's why.
The gold code is the spirt. Hence neo being able to feel it. Neo is not just seeing but feeling it. Like it's around him, like it is him.
Especially the source.
It's not the characters that make the reason why the matrix is hell or not but the matrix can be a hell or heaven if you wish. It is what you choose to make out of it. The matrix isn't a bad thing. It is control and without control, there would be chaos. (Eg, zion)
You probably don't know what i'm talking about but shortly, it is humans that trap theirselves.
I've highlighted this somewhere in here but just fyi.
Humans create machines.
Machines create peace.
Humans got jealouse and create war.
Machines had no choice but to resort to 'control'.
Machines create matrix.
So inevitably, it is humans who indirectly created the matrix.
Which is why 'our souls' (Our bodies in the pods) lies in heaven while our RSI is in the matrix.
I suppose this makes no sense but i'll explain to you every detail i can. You can ask me anything. But..
Peace.

You all seem to be forgetting one major point.. The name of Neo's ship is Nebuchadnezzar which is roughly translated in the bible as Lucifer.. The Merovingian is not Lucifer but instead something completely different.. Hades yes, but Lucifer NO! Neo himself is Lucifer coming into the world to offer humans that nefarious apple that was offered up to Eve in the garden of eden.. You can be considered to be correct when assuming that the Matrix is hell, but your cosmological reference on the matter is what is flawed.. The only explanation that can be gleaned from this little reference is that we are currently living in hell and that it is the world of the evolved that is "heaven"..


Ohh, and the Elysian Fields is not a greek concept but instead a Roman one.. If you ask yourself where such a concept could have been imported from in the Hellenistic world you will come to a satisfactory answer as to why the movie references both Hinduism and Christianity at the same time

Quote:

The name of Neo's ship is Nebuchadnezzar which is roughly translated in the bible as Lucifer..

This is nowhere near accurate. King Nebuchadnezzar's name is no where translated in the Bible as Lucifer and the name Lucifer is not to be found in the Bible.

I have not as yet verified other parts of your posts, Bub. But as flawed as the above statement is, I have serious reservations about accepting the rest of it.

Ex wrote:

- The three bouncers outside of club hel (a.k.a cerberus)- I believe they are symbolizing cerberus, the three headed dog who guarded the gates (elevator) to hades (club hel)

I always wondered about the Symbol of Cerberus in the matrix. ones i thought it was the twins because sometimes they say the hell-dog has only two heads.
but in the coat-check-room, the guy behind the counter with all the weaponery behind him is named "dog-boy"

Intell.. does St. Jerome ring a bell to you? The guy who translated the bible into the vulgate latin most certainly used the name Nebuchadnezzar as a template for both Jesus and Lucifer at the same time. Morning Star, or Bringer of Light.. I have no clue what biblical record you are working off of.. but i would like to know so i can verify your statement..

Nebuchadnezzar or Nebukadnezzar

"Servant of Nabu"

Nabu or Nebo was the Babylonian god of writing and vegetables. He was the son of Bel.

I'm concerened with the root meaning of names and words, not how other people have come to interpret and use them later on. It is important to have some acquaintance with the older texts. The lv is a version. There are others. How old they are is not as pertinent as what they are based on.

As for the Wachowski's use of the name -> they spoke on that subject anyway:

img.photobucket.com...

and/or

aish.com...

Then it must be a coincidence that the name mistranslated into the title for both savior and arch enemy just happens to be the ship bringing forth he who is both the savior and the destructor in the movie. Though you would have to think that the guys who wrote this flick would know of such a connection since they seem to be picking and choosing the names very carefully.. In their searches for shit to muse upon they never came across a free mason's view on the matter?

what about the imagery of both ship and body to be vessels for some greater power? Could not the soul of this nebuchadnezzar be like the soul of "the one" who goes through this transformation of first ruling over others then returning to be their servant? Makes a pretty damned convincing argument for the concept that the christian savior is really Satan or some other non-related entity that would fit into such heretical tracts such as those of Marcion or Aleister Crowley..

Maybe at a mere cursory glance. But when you take the time to give it a good 'once-over' so to speak, you see nothing of the kind. The fact that the king's name has been mistranslated - now tell me, why would a lie blend into the significance of the truth? What possible relationship could there be? First to make a comparison with this mistranslation -> Nebukadnezzar to Lucifer and/or Christ, the thing compared (Neo) being both saviour and destructor would have to be true. It isn't. Neither is the ship name being a source of misinformation relevant inasmuch as sources of such are superfluous. One just need to take your pick.

As for the more significant correlations to the correct understanding of Nebuchadnezzar, I once wrote:

Quote:

King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream about the end of the world and while he may or may not have grasped the significance of the dream at the time, it nonetheless frightened and disturbed him. To the point of waking up. Upon awaking, though the profound dread and disturbance was still upon him, he could not recall the dream itself, which caused this. Interestingly, Morpheus compares the situation to himself as the Neb is destroyed. “I have dreamed a dream, but now that dream has gone from me.” Morph has just come from thinking he knew how it all would end (“the war should be over”) to profound doubts about the prophecy (a lie…just another system of control) But “Wait. Something is different. I can feel them.” “Neo!” “What happened?” “I don’t know.” *Link looks upward* *n-tell engages the surround-sound and turns up the volume* “It’s the HAMMER.” Daniel told King Nebuchadnezzar that the dream is sure and the interpretation is true. The Oracle’s words came true, too, but not as some expected.

Inevitability responded with:

Quote:

A point about king Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in the bible is that Daniel said only God could reveal its meaning. Turns out to be a Statue representing the kingdoms/dreams of this world with Nebuchadnezzar himself as the head. What happens is a Rock manifests (not made by human hands) and “smashes” the statue/dream becoming the cornerstone that fills the whole earth. “He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces (so that he can be made whole), but he on whom it falls will be crushed.” The problem described at the beginning of the Second Renaissance as “vanity and corruption”, mankind making the “Machine” in his own image is also reiterated in the “voice over” in the end credits… “Envisioning the perfect world, man became the architect of his own demise…- I was in my own little world - … He never to be seen again!” It’s uncanny that Morpheus, while having the “dream” believing in the One (Rock) and being captain of the Nebuchadnezzar, had his ideals of how it would manifest smashed to pieces. Again this is True at the time of its biblical fulfillment, as none of Christ’s disciples could comprehend the purpose of his fulfillment and were scattered like sheep when the hammer hit (his crucifixion). They being Zion (the Jews) were “carrying” the promise (code) and were looking for a physical manifestation of God’s kingdom, when all along the change that was need was internal and the sacrifice inevitable. Again this seems to now tie in with what has been highlighted in the new Box Set about the Plaque aboard the Neb that reads…Mark III, 11 and is explained as the scene with Neo and the Sentinel at the end of M1… “Whenever the evil spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

Add to this, the fact that Morpheus is the god of dreams according to Greek mythology and I say "Enough."

Beelzebub asked:

Quote:

In their searches for shit to muse upon they never came across a free mason's view on the matter?

Perhaps?

mxoboards.warnerbros.com...

Machine city is the earth after the fall of man. (Original sin..Adam and Eve eating the fruit). It fits well with the symbolism of a destroyed earth..M1...earth is destroyed and covered in darkness. When they fly above machine city, they see heaven above. Heaven is out of sight for anyone, until the matrix (Hell) is destroyed, Satan is defeated (Smith) and a new earth is created (revelations).
Red/Blue pill- Obedience of God, or free will.
Morpheus- John the Baptist
Neo- Christ
Trinity- Mary Magdalene (coincides with the idea that Jesus married her)
The agents- Angels of death or demons. havent made up my mind yet.
Merovingi may be an expression of the 7 deadly sins. He lives by all of them.
The train man -Death..The reaper

i believe that zion is hell why?..

Oh shit.. this is crazy.. my reason is right above me