»Why Neo can use his Matrix-powers in Zion«

The reason why Neo is able to stop the attacking sentinels in Zion “by thinking it” is not because Zion is a matrix-within-a-matrix, but because Neo’s mind-over-matter power transcends the world of the Matrix.

How?

Let me try to explain.

The merging between Neo and Agent Smith at the end of M1, caused some of Neo’s ‘human- code’ to become imprimted onto Agent Smith, and some of Agents Smith’s ‘program-code’ to become imprinted onto Neo. And after their merging, Neo takes over some of Agent Smith’s program-code, and Agent Smith takes over some of Neo’s ‘human-code.

[Agent Smith] “I don’t fully understand how it happened, perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied.”

The transcription of each other’s codes between and among them and the death-and-rebirth cycle that they both go through make Neo and Smith ‘connected’ in a way.

[Agent Smith] “then you’re aware of it.”
[Neo] “aware of what?”
[Agent Smith] “our connection.”

It is a connection that is best described as a connection within the realm of ‘consciousness’ because the ‘code’ that becomes transcribed between Neo and Smith is best depicted as ‘human-nature’ (i.e. the will to exercise free will) and ‘program-nature’ (i.e. the will to endure).

Agent Smith reveals his ‘human-nature’ through his will to exercise free will, albeit in the form of disobedience.
[Agent Smith] “I knew what I was supposed to do, but I didn’t. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey.”

Neo reveals his ‘program-nature’ through his will to endure.
[The Oracle] “usually a program seeks exile when it faces deletion.”
[The Architect] “the function of the One is to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, re-inserting the prime program […] failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.”
–and what does Neo do when he is faced with his ‘end’? -Exactly, he seeks exile in the Matrix, just like a program facing deletion would.

Because Neo and Smith have exchanged their ‘codes’, they have both become part-program and part-human though the ‘mix’ is different. Neo remains “irrevocably human” and Smith remains for the largest part program (as far as we know).
Now that we have established that Neo and Agent Smith are connected to each other within the realm of consciousness, we are well on our way to explaining why Neo’s mind-over-matter power is able to transcend the world of the Matrix.

When Smith assimilated Bane earlier and just prior to his return on board of the Hammer, Smith’s conscience transcended into the real world. And since Neo and Smith are so ‘connected’, their transcendence of consciousness beyond the world of the Matrix occurs simultaneously and together.

Remember how Neo wakes up (i.e. regains consciousness) moments after Bane re-enters the world of Zion aboard the Hammer after his assimilation by Smith, and that the little boy (the spoon boy) from the Oracle’s place offered his spoon to Neo?
It is no coincidence that Neo receives the spoon shortly after Bane arrives back into the real world. It is the little boy’s way of telling Neo that (because Smith’s conscience transcends the world of the Matrix through the assimilation of Bane) Neo’s power over programs (and machines, though not fully) has now also transcended beyond the world of the Matrix.

There were some really good points made in your post seravingian. You really helped me understand that connection between Neo and Smith more than I had. But I don't know if the little spoon boy knew about Smith overtaking Bane in the Matrix.

I do not believe in a Matrix within a Matrix but I also knew there was a reason Neo was able to use his powers in the 'real world'. So basically Neo is still human but has program traits able to manipulate even the realm of reality within the 'real world'. Smith is a program with human traits like in Revolutions when Smith started to bleed in the building as Neo was kicking him.

seravingian wrote:

Agent Smith reveals his ‘human-nature’ through his will to exercise free will, albeit in the form of disobedience. [Agent Smith] “I knew what I was supposed to do, but I didn’t. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey.”

Hm,... Smith was compelled to disobey. Also he was not exactly trying to escape his purpose:
"without purpose we would not exist (...) We're here to take from you what you tried to take from us, purpose"
"Temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose."
Compelled and purpose; does this sound like free will?

Smith was created as a program with a purpose he had to fulfill for his "society". During his time in the Matrix he developed an urge to transcend his purpose,.. to be free. But what did he mean by freedom?

"I hate this place (...) I must get out of here. I must get free (...) Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here..."

Freedom for him clearly was beyond the Matrix. If you read...

For once I can say I've been truly enlightened about M2 & M3. Excellent work, seravingian!

One thing that might still be hard to explain is exactly how Matrix code can enter the real world as real objects or abilities.

Quote:

It is no coincidence that Neo receives the spoon shortly after Bane arrives back into the real world. It is the little boy’s way of telling Neo that (because Smith’s conscience transcends the world of the Matrix through the assimilation of Bane) Neo’s power over programs (and machines, though not fully) has now also transcended beyond the world of the Matrix.

OK, so the spoon started off as nothing more than a piece of code in the matrix the defines a spoon object. Like this:

class CSpoon {
int width;
int height;
int color;
// etc....
}

(Sorry, just had to show off my nerdishness)

In M1 the spoon kid has the ability to bend and manipulate the spoon using only his mind. This is because he knows that the spoon is not real -- it's simply projected into his mind.

So how did something that was nothing more than maybe several pages of matrix code come to be the physical object that was handed to Neo in M2?

MiM theories aside, is it possible that some non-human objects in the Matrix also have physical, real-world counterparts, which the Machines use to model objects inside the Matrix?

After all, how do the machines know what meat and red wine taste like?...

I'm sorry but I just don't understand it - I've not seen it done or heard of any substantiated claim that its been done.

We see 3 environments in the movies - (1) the 'Matrix", (2) "Zion" and (3) "Train station".

We know with certainty that 2 out of the three are simulations. We also know that the minds in "Matrix" mostly believe they are in the real world, apart from those already freed.

With those simple facts and applying scientific rigour, the most likely situation is that "Zion" is not real - everything points to that and nothing suggests that it is real. We know that 99% of the "matrix" minds think they are in the real world, surely that is the first assumption we must make about the "zion" minds until something tells us otherwise.

To top it off, why would the machines let minds escape into the real "real world" and then go through the expense of physically destroying them? The architect is an efficiency addict, of course the first thing he is going to do is contain the minds in yet another simulation. They won't know any better, and that is his method of control. When there becomes too many "zion" minds, enough to seriously destabilise "matrix", he just pushes reset and wipes the existence of "zion" away completely. Up to that point the "zion" minds have continued to supply power, thank you very much.

If you look at it this way, clearly the onus is on the "zion is real" people to prove it, not the other way round.

The MiM theory (Zion another matrix) would certainly be a more elegant, consistent explanation to the events in the movie, than the multitude of contrived "patches" to the "only-one-matrix" theory.

At this point I'm at a loss over exactly which to believe. I do like the MiM concept, if only for its perfectly circular consistency, elegance and simplicity.

Ok, these has nothing to do with the power issue. I just want to know if there is a forum here where the building, the corridors behind the doors (an the doors of course), the lightening door, the train station, and all of the symbols introduced in M3 are discussed.
Now, talking about the thing of matrix inside matrix. In M1 morphius explains that there was (or were, excuse me, I'm mexican and english language is not my first language) a war. Humans burned the sky and machines created matrix. So, there existed a world before that without matrix, the oracle, Smith, Neo and this forum. That doesn't agrees with the idea that Zion is just an idea programed by the architect to balance matrix (Zion exists in the world before matrix).
You may think that the idea of a world before matrix with humans and wars was created by the architect when the Zion idea was created, but, even in that case, the existence of an architect indicates that matrix have not always existed, so something "real" had to be there, where the machines lived and started to need humans to survive, and of course a world where those humans existed. So, even when Zion could be just another matrix, I think that a "real world" really exists, out of matrix. And given that this third world is never mentioned in matrix, I'm then inclined to believe that Zion is "really real".
Now, after to sound meavy stupid with all of this, I will comment something not so stupid. There exists religions (I can´t remember with ones exactly, but I think that are induhin or whatever could be the word) who states that we exist in this world just to learn something about the reality beyond this universe. In that sense, I see matrix as the oportunity to learn things that could be usefull in the real world and that cannot be downloaded like the hability of figthing, helicopter controling etc. I have more about I want to discuse but I have written to much in this intervention so I´ll wait. But, don´t fotget, I need information about forums here to discuse the things I mentioned at the beggining, pease help me.

diamond wrote:

In M1 morphius explains that there was (or were, excuse me, I'm mexican and english language is not my first language) a war. Humans burned the sky and machines created matrix. So, there existed a world before that without matrix, the oracle, Smith, Neo and this forum.

Have you seen the Second Renaissance? It covers the the man-machine history leading to the existence of the Matrix, and, I believe, it is essential to an understanding of the Matrix trilogy.
If you haven't seen it, you can download it here:
intothematrix.com...

diamond wrote:

There exists religions (I can´t remember with ones exactly, but I think that are induhin or whatever could be the word) who states that we exist in this world just to learn something about the reality beyond this universe.

It's Hinduism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Sufism... They all more or less believe that the macrocosm is represented by a veiled microcosm in each of us, and it is our purpose in life to come to a realisation of this.
I agree with you that this is what the Matrix movies are about.

Quote:

Compelled and purpose; does this sound like free will?

I believe free will is the ability to act upon the freedom to make choices -even if that choice means ‘disobeying’ certain rules. Exercising free will not only involves acting upon the choice to do something, but also involves acting upon the choice not to do something.

Let me give you an example to clarify what I’m trying to say.

You know how modern-day society ‘tells’ us that we need to go to school to become educated so that we can find a job, so that we can create some financial security to eventually settle down and perhaps get married and eventually have children.
As a society we like to believe that this is a vast improvement in the quality of life since the days when we were still all hunters and gatherers some 10,000 years ago. In that sense, we all participate in this modern-day lifestyle, and given the comfort we can afford with financial security, we have all seemed to accept it as ‘the better option’.
The other option is of course, is to be sort of rebellious and to disobey these rules of modern-day society. We can still choose to drop out of school, we can still choose to live off the dole, and we can still choose to be homeless. It’s just not an attractive option given the comfort and freedom that financial security can provide. I mean, anyone in the right mind would choose to sleep in a comfortable warm bed over a park bench in the freezing cold, right? But just because this rebellious lifestyle does not seem an attractive option for people in the right mind, does not mean that we do not have the choice to choose such a ‘disobedient’ lifestyle.

You see, just because you choose not to do something, does not mean that you are not acting upon the ability and freedom to make choices. Think of Neo choosing the left door instead of the right door in the Architect’s Chamber. He is also acting upon his ability to make choices and exercises free will by not choosing the right door. It all depends on how you look at it, really. The choice to do something is equal to the choice not to do something else.

So, even though Agent Smith feels “compelled to stay, compelled to disobey” does not mean that he no longer has the ability to act upon his freedom to make choices.
It is important to remember that Agent Smith chose to no longer be part of the system, he chose to become unplugged, he chose to find new purpose.
I would even argue that wherever there is a genuine choice to be made (that is, the freedom to make a choice, or the freedom to not make a choice), there is free will, otherwise it cannot and would not be a genuine choice.
Was the choice of Agent Smith to no longer be part of the system a genuine choice? I believe so since Agent Smith was aware of his other option, and therefore could have also chosen to go along with the system instead:

[Agent Smith] “I knew the rules, I knew what I was supposed to do”

Agent Smith was aware of what he was supposed to do, but at the same time was compelled to disobey. He was thus acting upon his sense of free will- he chose to disobey. He chose not to return to the Source to become deleted or replaced.

Sounds pretty much like free will to me. What do you think?

Quote:

seravingian wrote: ...(because Smith’s conscience transcends the world of the Matrix through the assimilation of Bane) Neo’s power over programs (and machines, though not fully) has now also transcended beyond the world of the Matrix. This would mean that, if the Neb had been attacked while taking Neo to see the Oracle, he could have destroyed the sentinels already then? His experiences while walking through the door of light, and in the architect room, have nothing to do with it?

Exactly. I believe the scene in the Architect's Chamber is not meant to establish Neo's powers in Zion, but to inform the audience of the history of the Matrix and of the 'reload' construct within the Matrix, and to inform the audience of Neo's continuing desire to act upon his sense of free will and his love for Trinity.

Although Neo becomes 'enlightened' in a sense by returning to the Source (he glows when he resuscitates Trinity), his entering and leaving the Source has little to nothing to do with his transcendence of power into Zion. I mean, how would that work? How would the Source be able to give Neo power over the Sentinels in Zion?

I also believe that if the Neb was attacked shortly after the assimilated Bane entered back into the real world of Zion, and before Neo had been to the Architect's Chamber, Neo would also have been able to stop the Sentinels.

Only thing is, this doesn't happen until after Neo chooses the lef door in the Architect's Chamber, so Neo does not become aware of his new power in Zion until after he leaves the Architect's Chamber. Perhaps the fact that he became 'enlightened' in a sense by entering and leaving the Source, meant he had more control over the Sentinels than he would have had if he had not been to the Architect's Chamber at all. But this, of course, is pure speculation and therefore open for discussion. I'd be interested in hearing what you think.

Quote:

In M1 the spoon kid has the ability to bend and manipulate the spoon using only his mind. This is because he knows that the spoon is not real -- it's simply projected into his mind. So how did something that was nothing more than maybe several pages of matrix code come to be the physical object that was handed to Neo in M2?

I'm not sure whether it was the same spoon as the one that the spoon boy used in the Oracle's place. Remember how the spoon that was handed to Neo in Zion looked all scratchy and used while the one used in the Oracle's place looked all pristine and new? Perhaps the 'code' of the spoon became altered in some way during it's transcendence into Zion, but why would the spoon boy take the spoon along with him?

I believe the spoon boy 'felt' the transcendence of Smith's power into Zion by his heightened conscious of the working of programs within the Matrix, including the transcendence of these same programs beyond the world of the Matrix.

The only object that the spoon boy could have offered Neo as a hint of Smith's (and indeed Neo's) transcendence of power beyond the world of the Matrix was a spoon, regardless of whether it was the same spoon or not. After all, their earlier conversation of power over programs in the matrix revolved around a spoon, not the spoon.

Remember how when Neo enters the house of the Oracle, the spoon boy is described as one of the "other potential candidates"? It indicates that the spoon boy had a conscious level that was beyond that of ordinary people in the Matrix and that the spoon boy had some mind-over-matter powers, just like Neo.

What d'ya think?

Smith (a program) enters a human (flesh and bones) and control it. In M1 Morphius explains that the body sufers what you sufer in matrix because of a relationship between mind and body, who makes the body (materia) react to thoughts. So, if mind can act over a human body, why could not act over another body? The Matrix was programed BASED on the laws of the real world, so, it means that, if you learn about these laws in matrix, and about how to use it there, then you can use what you learned out of M, because the real world works in the same way. You learn inside matrix that a knife can cut your skin. This "programed situation" is based on the REAL fact that a knife can cut skin (if the machines know that chiken tastes as chiken, is because the Architect did know it when he programed matrix), and when you get out of matrix, that knoledge is still valid. Neo sees bits of on information going back and forth in matrix, and learn how they work. He see the laws behind their behavior, and when he is out, in Zion, he gets enlightened and understand that what he see obeys the same rules he learned to control in matrix, so he use this knoledge.

Interesting interesting...

So the spoon didn't have to be the same thing -- it's just symbolic. That makes plenty of sense.

seravingian wrote:

Perhaps the 'code' of the spoon became altered in some way during it's transcendence into Zion, but why would the spoon boy take the spoon along with him?

The term "transcendance" bothers me -- is there a scientificalluy plausible explanation to exactly how a body of code in a computer's memory bank that represents an object can be converted into a real world object?

This is why I'd prefer to stick with your other explanation that the spoon in the Matrix and the spoon handed to Neo are totally different objects.

DrFunkenstien wrote:

The term "transcendance" bothers me -- is there a scientificalluy plausible explanation to exactly how a body of code in a computer's memory bank that represents an object can be converted into a real world object?

i used the term transcendance because i was referring to the shift in existence or presence from the world of the Matrix into the real world of Zion. But i agree with you that another word would have described this shift of presence better. It was the same word i used to describe the shift of consciousness of Neo and Smith out of the world of the Matrix into the real world of Zion as described in my first post above.
You can also check out my earlier essay in the "More Matrix Theories Forum" entitled "the Matrix trilogy explained (2)" or the "for those confused..." threads in the same forum for more interesting stuff on the Matrix Trilogy. It's a bit of a long read, but hang in there -it's cool stuff! i'm curious to hear what your thoughts on it are.

DrFunkenstien wrote:

This is why I'd prefer to stick with your other explanation that the spoon in the Matrix and the spoon handed to Neo are totally different objects.

yep, i agree. i just proposed the other idea as an option for discussion. Hope you didn't find the idea too wacko.

Is there a difference between choice and free will?
I believe so.

It is my personal understanding, that choice is the possibility to choose between two or more options and their consequences, whereas free will is choice beyond any options.

Do we humans have choice? I believe so.
Do we have free will? I believe we don't. We are a body whose physical needs and instincts affect our choices; and we are embedded into a society, which, through cultural imprint and education, and with it's laws, rules etc. also affects our choices.
Even if we disobey some aspects of our society, we still are a part of it, and our choices, and their consequences, are affected by it, be it in obedience or disobedience.

Disobedience is choosing against a given option, but you have to face the consequences:

seravingian wrote:

The other option is of course, is to be sort of rebellious and to disobey these rules of modern-day society. We can still choose to drop out of school, we can still choose to live off the dole, and we can still choose to be homeless.

Sure we could choose against the rules which our society has established for a safe and comfortable life; but,...are we free if we have only little knowledge (and thus - in many aspects - are easy victims to others), are hungry, have one hell of a problem when it's cold in winter and depend on the mercy of others?

Causality,.... action - reaction, cause and effect;... not free will.
Even a choice made in disobedience is just another link in the chain.

seravingian wrote:

Think of Neo choosing the left door instead of the right door in the Architect’s Chamber. He is also acting upon his ability to make choices and exercises free will by not choosing the right door.

Neo chooses the door to his left, but would he have chosen the same if it were not for Trinity? I believe his choice is based on "Trinity, (...) I'm not letting go. I can't. I love you too damn much.". This is choice based on options and their consequences, but not yet free will.

seravingian wrote:

So, even though Agent Smith feels “compelled to stay, compelled to disobey” does not mean that he no longer has the ability to act upon his freedom to make choices.

When Smith made his choice to disobey the rules of the system, he didn't do it, because he just felt like it. He did it because he was "compelled" to do so:
Some force, be it an inner (result of his programming + experiences + current situation (=option!)) or an outer force, made Smith disobey.
Consider what the Oracle tells Neo: "He is you. Your opposite, your negative, the result of the equation trying to balance itself out." <- Smith's action's are some force's doing.

Smith was programmed for a purpose; he is bound by his purpose, his programming is limited by the requirements of his purpose, which excludes free will. Even if he is able to disobey a rule and make his given purpose his personal purpose, he cannot transcend the limits of it.
For that reason he grows in number and "physical" power, but - as opposed to Neo - not in understanding.

Free will, however, requires understanding; I agree with Merv, when he says: "Choice is an illusion created between those with power, and those without (...) Why is the only real source of power, without it you are powerless."
Without understanding, we are easily being manipulated in our choices.

If there is something as free will, it can only be achieved, I believe, based on the path given to us by eastern mysticism: to free ourselves from our attachments and let our will become one with the universal will (if you believe that there is something as the universal will).
To give you an idea what I am talking about:
hinduwebsite.com...
This, I believe, is how Neo achieves free will in the end of Revolutions.


As for Neo's power in the "real world":

seravingian wrote:

Agent Smith reveals his ‘human-nature’ through his will to exercise free will, albeit in the form of disobedience.

Oracle: usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion.

seravingian wrote:

It is the little boy’s way of telling Neo that (because Smith’s conscience transcends the world of the Matrix through the assimilation of Bane) Neo’s power over programs (and machines, though not fully) has now also transcended beyond the world of the Matrix.

How can Smith transcending the Matrix give Neo power in the real world, when Smith was disconnected from the source and didn't have any special power in the real world at all. At best,... I believe, Smith could have given Neo the ability to feel the Sentinels, but stop them?...

The Oracle tells Neo: "The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from (...) The Source."

Also...

Oracle:...a program can either choose to hide here, or return to the source.
Neo: The machine mainframe.
Oracle: Yes. Where you must go. Where the path of the One ends. You've seen it, in your dreams, haven't you? The door, made of light....

What do you think the door of light is?

tozy wrote:

It is my personal understanding, that choice is the possibility to choose between two or more options and their consequences, whereas free will is choice beyond any options. Do we humans have choice? I believe so. Do we have free will? I believe we don't. We are a body whose physical needs and instincts affect our choices; and we are embedded into a society, which, through cultural imprint and education, and with it's laws, rules etc. also affects our choices.

Equipped with choice, we make decisions within a framework. Equipped with free will, we also create the framework.

Is it possible to attain ultimate knowledge of everything? I believe not. So we'll probably never have genuine free will.

Here's to infinity <raises glass of vodka>

As I always say.... we're not free, we're programmed to think we are.

Apocryphe wrote:

As I always say.... we're not free, we're programmed to think we are.

Who by (in your opinion)?

Not knowing the answer to that question is part of the program.
As Merv said, what matters is the "why", without why we're powerless. And we don't have that why so we are powerless, as I said, we're not free.

Apocryphe wrote:

Not knowing the answer to that question is part of the program.

Well in that case you've created a paradox for yourself!

You could just as well say that we're all really a race of mythical "shkobles", and have been programmed to not know that we're shkobles, and not know what a shkoble is, which is why, when I speak of shkobles, you should all be intelligently considering what I have to say, instead of thinking that I just made up the term on the spot just for the heck of it.

OK, so here I my 2 cent(s) .... well maybe 10...

From what I have been able to understand, when Neo jumped into Smith, both of them got a lil bit of each imprinted on the other. So Smith got some of Neo and Neo a bit of Smith.

Neo has always gone against the grain. He has never liked the idea of authority, or that he doesn't have control over his life. This is perfectly shown in M2, where Neo goes to see the Architech. It is shown in almost all of the TV screens when Neo's "thoughts" are shown after the Architech says something Neo doesn't believe. These TV "thoughts" are his going against the grain and not believing or adhearing to authority (or purpose)

With that idea in mind, the part that got written into Smith was this very idea. The reason Smith was compeled not to obey orders was because of Neo's code. Just as the Oracle said, "he is you, the opposite of you" (that might not be the exact quote, but you all know what im talking about). Smith is all of the negativity of Neo, and his unruly feelings for authority.

Now the part of Neo "feeling" the sentinals. Although Neo carries the anomaly code, that doesn't connect him to the Source. I believe what connects him to the Source is Smith's code, but Neo is not yet aware of this connection. His dreams of the Source start the wheels in motion, but only after talking with the Architech does he realize more, even if at a sub-concious level.

Now the way the connection works (or so my theory goes) is that each robot (Sentinals or others) is connected to the Source. This isn't totally evident, but we all know that once Neo defeats Smith in M3, that immediatly all the squidies stop attacking Zion. Obviously this is done by wireless transmition. But, why can't this connection also send code or a virus? With this code/virus, a self destruct or something along those lines could be sent. Now, yes, as most of you might say, why would Sentinals have a self destuct mode? My answer... they wouldn't... but it could be code that Neo could send to the Source that got sent to the squidies. And he could make this code by mearly thinking of destroying the Sentinals.

Now while in the Matrix, Neo can see code. That makes sence since he is part code, or machine if you will, due to the annomaly, as well as part human. Outside the matrix, he can't see the orange code till he loses the use of his eyes. With this new vision, he can only see the machine life force, pure electricity (or whatever they use in the far future). He cannot see Trinity, or I believe any other human, because they do not have any code or machine life force in them. That is why he could see Bane, that's why he could see the Sentinals, and that is why everything was as light as day in 01. When the Sentinal that he killed that flew thru his body while in the logos, I believe that to be the "spirit" or life force, whatever you want to call it, that was escaping the Sentinal. All this is connected to why he could "feel" the Sentinals, because of the code from the annomaly and Smith.

I think I may have missed some points, but thats about it... my 10 cent(s).

DrFunkenstien wrote:

Apocryphe wrote: Not knowing the answer to that question is part of the program. Well in that case you've created a paradox for yourself! You could just as well say that we're all really a race of mythical "shkobles", and have been programmed to not know that we're shkobles, and not know what a shkoble is, which is why, when I speak of shkobles, you should all be intelligently considering what I have to say, instead of thinking that I just made up the term on the spot just for the heck of it.

Actually, we ARE shkobles except that we call them humans
That's all the point of he trilogy : is Bane a human or a program ? Are you still a program if you're loaded into a human brain ?
Arn't you human anymore if your brain is copied into a machine that'll think exactly like you ?

That's the question, my dear.

Hey Tozy,

Good post back there!

After some more viewing, more reading, and more thinking, I have to agree with you that Smith was indeed not acting out of free will or choice when he re-entered the Matrix, but was being guided by some invisible force in his actions.

As Smith tells Neo in the courtyard: "appearances can be deceiving" -indeed they can...

[Smith]: "we're not here because we're free, we're here because we're not free".

Smith and Neo are indeed both bounded by their individual purpose and are therefore not free from the system and not free from the Architect's purpose in his trying to balance-out the equation.

You also pointed out that Smith says that he was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey.

I would have to agree with you that his being compelled is indeed the doings of a greater force of which Smith is not even aware.

[Smith]: "I don't exactly know how it happened..."

Your post really got me thinking about the events that take place 'off-screen' (Smith's resurrection by the system's trying to balance itself out after M1) that are very important to understanding the events and the dialogue we see and hear 'on-screen'.

i think neo's real world powers over the machines come from the fact that he has a connection with "the source". and the matrix and the machines both come from the same place so i always thought the machine city would run like a giant computer. so in the matrix which i think would be like the internet neo has alot of powers, but in the real world, being like the desktop or control panel he would have some powers. the oracle tells neo he touched the source so i think the code he carries affects the matrix as well as other machine outside of it