»The Controversial Rave Scene/ Islam«

You have all certainly noticed that the "Kid" takes of his shoes before entering the cavern and everybody is barefooted in the "Rave" sequence.

Taking off any foot ware before setting foot on holy ground -mostly mosques- is mandatory in Islam.

Also Counselor Hamann says: "Now I would like someone else
to close this prayer. . .

Which is also another indicator that the Cavern is a religious place.


There`s much to the "Rave" sequence in terms of symbolism and references.

Also reading the IMDB board, I was much surprised by the emotions toward this sequences to the point where "I hate the Rave scene" had become the signature of a user.

I will write further about this sequence in the near future.

Regards,

Atreides

I for one don't hate the rave scene ~ I love the whole atmosphere of that scene. I've been to many raves and I remember the atmosphere that is generated plus the music that is played in that scene is really rockin'!!!!

Cool. I have always seen the Rave scene as the portrayal of the human spirit. I was reminded that there was a Rave scene in the first movie too, but I see that as much more machine-like.

The problem with the scene is that it's not cool to watch it many times. I think the first movie was almost completely without such scenes, but Reloaded contained several in my opinion.

emp wrote:

Cool. I have always seen the Rave scene as the portrayal of the human spirit. I was reminded that there was a Rave scene in the first movie too, but I see that as much more machine-like. The problem with the scene is that it's not cool to watch it many times. I think the first movie was almost completely without such scenes, but Reloaded contained several in my opinion.

The Human Spirit is a very powerful force and shouldn't be contained in flesh and blood ~ but our Spirit has to learn and develop ergo were shut up in this dross matter.

You could also notice the color of the Sari-like costumes and the scarf the servants are wearing in the Cavern.

It`s Blue

The Rave scene needed to be cut down: it just lasts too long, I get the point!
Also too long is the rather cliched Trinity - Neo love-making scene.

How many movies show us such a scene these days? Boring! A few quick cuts to show their passion then flash to Neo's nightmare-premonition.

SJ wrote:

The Rave scene needed to be cut down: it just lasts too long, I get the point! Also too long is the rather cliched Trinity - Neo love-making scene. How many movies show us such a scene these days? Boring! A few quick cuts to show their passion then flash to Neo's nightmare-premonition.

I don't think the Trin/Neo scene was too long, considering that it was the only scene of a sexual nature out of the two films (which is unusual in its self, these days).It also made a point of showing that Neo chose to be with Trinity instead of being with Zion ~ a choice that he would make again after the Architect scene.
The Oracle ~"No. You have already made the choice, now you have to understand it."

Another Smith's observation was also brought up by me in the theories forum under "Basic Meaning of the Rave Scene." I'm really glad someone ELSE made the same observation.

She probably has taken that observation from that previous post...

Another Smith, of course you liked the rave/sex scene, you've already shown us you're into that...

Anyways, the rave scene was absolutely unnecessary... what a waste of 10 perfectly good minutes.

If there is anything that that scene showed us, it is the depravity of human nature. It shows that, no matter how much we learn, we are still controlled by selfishness and lust.

Aside from theories surrounding the Rave/Love sequence, I would like you to read a quote from Roger Ebert’s review about Matrix Reloaded, I do value his opinion as someone criticizing the movie industry over decades, nevertheless his opinion does not represent mine.

Quote:

The second (of the 3 great set pieces) comes when Morpheus returns to Zion and addresses the assembled multitude--an audience that looks like a mosh pit crossed with the underground slaves in "Metropolis." After his speech, the citizens dance in a percussion-driven frenzy, which is intercut with Neo and Trinity (Carrie-Anne Moss) having sex. I think their real bodies are having the sex, although you can never be sure.

Here is the link to the full review:

suntimes.com...

This is only an example showing the diversity of reactions toward this sequence.


Regards,

Atreides

Thanks for the link to Roger Ebert's review: it still did not change my mind that the scene goes on too long, and I agree that one sees Neo and Trinity choosing each other over the communal ritual. My point is, I understand that fairly quickly and do not need to see an MTV video of percussion solos.

I also admit to wondering: these rather sensual, hedonistic individuals do not seem worthy of the sacrifices being made by Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, et al. I am not sure I would sacrifice myself for such types.

I know, I know, I can see that this is also a combination war-dance and a last chance at some pleasure before the Ultimate Battle starts.

If the members of the crowd had each gone to a beloved a la Neo and Trinity, the effect would have been much more poignant. Compare the Rave to the scene in Homer's Iliad where before Hector goes out to a certain death to battle Achilles, his wife Andromache implores him to stay and defend them inside the city, or even to escape.

Hector doesn't boogy to drums before the battle starts.

stinkz wrote:

She probably has taken that observation from that previous post... Another Smith, of course you liked the rave/sex scene, you've already shown us you're into that... Anyways, the rave scene was absolutely unnecessary... what a waste of 10 perfectly good minutes. If there is anything that that scene showed us, it is the depravity of human nature. It shows that, no matter how much we learn, we are still controlled by selfishness and lust.

No I didn,t take that from another post, HAVING A GO AT ME AGAIN, EH? It must be LOVE (sarcasm included) I'm an undergraduate and I'm doing theory behind the Matrix, I've researched a hell of a lot. The choice of TRIN above ZION is blatently OBVIOUS... Do not treat me like I'm some stupid woman ~ because believe you me ~ I'm not. I may have said some daft things on this site but if you are constantly taking me seriously then that's your problem..and I was beginning to like you too...I am a practical joker I'm well-known for it, so remember that the next time one of my silly posts upsets you, and engage your brain before you reply OK?I don't seem to have a problem anywhere else, it's just you it seems~ lighten-up OK

@SJ

I did not intend to change your opinion, as I’ve said it the Ebert’s review does not represent mine, only the diversity of reactions toward this sequence.

Quote:

I also admit to wondering: these rather sensual, hedonistic individuals do not seem worthy of the sacrifices being made by Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, et al. I am not sure I would sacrifice myself for such types.

What made you think they were "hedonistic, sensual individuals", engaging in a ritual defines a person? Are you identifying with Neo to the point that you expect him to do, what you will do? Or your emotions toward this sequence is dictating you how you’ll behave toward such a population?
If Neo is choosing Trinity "over" Zion, I see no sacrifice.

Quote:

Compare the Rave to the scene in Homer's Iliad where before Hector goes out to a certain death to battle Achilles, his wife Andromache implores him to stay and defend them inside the city, or even to escape. Hector doesn't boogy to drums before the battle starts.

Unfortunately I can’t find any common mean for comparison between those two. Neo did not boogie to drums, and Morpheus in not engaged in the "Physical act of love" with Trinity.You're welcome to elaborate on this matter.

One the means to convey the poignancy of this sequence -which certainly did not succeed in many cases like yours- is the contrast of the "orgy" to the "intimacy".

Regards,

Atreides

atreides wrote:

@SJ Quote: I also admit to wondering: these rather sensual, hedonistic individuals do not seem worthy of the sacrifices being made by Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, et al. I am not sure I would sacrifice myself for such types. What made you think they were "hedonistic, sensual individuals", engaging in a ritual defines a person? Are you identifying with Neo to the point that you expect him to do, what you will do? Or your emotions toward this sequence is dictating you how you’ll behave toward such a population? If Neo is choosing Trinity "over" Zion, I see no sacrifice. Atreides

Yes, I was referring to my own reaction: obviously the "Trinity" of Morpheus, Neo, Trinity believes that sacrificing themselves for the population of Zion is indeed worthwhile. (Side comment: interesting that the 3 characters are a type of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Neo as Son has already died and risen, as people have noted. Will the Holy Spirit/Trinity eventually become a "tongue of fire" or a "dove of peace"? (The answer is in the question !)

Quote:

Compare the Rave to the scene in Homer's Iliad where before Hector goes out to a certain death to battle Achilles, his wife Andromache implores him to stay and defend them inside the city, or even to escape. Hector doesn't boogy to drums before the battle starts.

atreides wrote:

Unfortunately I can’t find any common mean for comparison between those two. Neo did not boogie to drums, and Morpheus in not engaged in the "Physical act of love" with Trinity.You're welcome to elaborate on this matter. One the means to convey the poignancy of this sequence -which certainly did not succeed in many cases like yours- is the contrast of the "orgy" to the "intimacy". .

Let me be more specific: my previous comparison is between the people in the orgy and Hector, not between Neo and Hector. Obviously Neo is much more parallel and more admirable than Hector. That Morpheus stays away from the sensuality increases his stature: austere, virtuous, stoic.

atreides wrote:

@SJ Quote: I also admit to wondering: these rather sensual, hedonistic individuals do not seem worthy of the sacrifices being made by Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, et al. I am not sure I would sacrifice myself for such types. What made you think they were "hedonistic, sensual individuals", engaging in a ritual defines a person? Are you identifying with Neo to the point that you expect him to do, what you will do? Or your emotions toward this sequence is dictating you how you’ll behave toward such a population? If Neo is choosing Trinity "over" Zion, I see no sacrifice. Atreides

Yes, I was referring to my own reaction: obviously the "Trinity" of Morpheus, Neo, Trinity believes that sacrificing themselves for the population of Zion is indeed worthwhile. (Side comment: interesting that the 3 characters are a type of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Neo as Son has already died and risen, as people have noted. Will the Holy Spirit/Trinity eventually become a "tongue of fire" or a "dove of peace"? (The answer is in the question !)

Quote:

Compare the Rave to the scene in Homer's Iliad where before Hector goes out to a certain death to battle Achilles, his wife Andromache implores him to stay and defend them inside the city, or even to escape. Hector doesn't boogy to drums before the battle starts.

atreides wrote:

Unfortunately I can’t find any common mean for comparison between those two. Neo did not boogie to drums, and Morpheus in not engaged in the "Physical act of love" with Trinity.You're welcome to elaborate on this matter. One the means to convey the poignancy of this sequence -which certainly did not succeed in many cases like yours- is the contrast of the "orgy" to the "intimacy". .

Let me be more specific: my previous comparison is between the people in the orgy and Hector, not between Neo and Hector. Obviously Neo is much more parallel and more admirable than Hector. That Morpheus stays away from the sensuality increases his stature: austere, virtuous, stoic.

Don't know why my name "SJ" was not listed above and "Guest" was used instead.

another smith... i said you got that from another post because I was just previously at another thread where the exact thing was said. So yes, there was research.
But go ahead... get offended and claim that I think your a "stupid woman."
If you don't agree with my opinion on something, say why... I'm not interested in hearing whether or not you "like" me.

SJ wrote:

Thanks for the link to Roger Ebert's review: it still did not change my mind that the scene goes on too long, and I agree that one sees Neo and Trinity choosing each other over the communal ritual. My point is, I understand that fairly quickly and do not need to see an MTV video of percussion solos. I also admit to wondering: these rather sensual, hedonistic individuals do not seem worthy of the sacrifices being made by Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, et al. I am not sure I would sacrifice myself for such types. I know, I know, I can see that this is also a combination war-dance and a last chance at some pleasure before the Ultimate Battle starts. If the members of the crowd had each gone to a beloved a la Neo and Trinity, the effect would have been much more poignant. Compare the Rave to the scene in Homer's Iliad where before Hector goes out to a certain death to battle Achilles, his wife Andromache implores him to stay and defend them inside the city, or even to escape. Hector doesn't boogy to drums before the battle starts.

Would just like to say that it is more than a war for conquest here- it is a war of humans against machines and the scene shows the power of human emotion as individuals and as a group.

I wonder if the hatred towards the rave scene has any relation to our cultures sexual stigma. Afterall human exisitence is full of such ritual...yet we look down upon those cultures that still practice such.

SJ wrote:

I also admit to wondering: these rather sensual, hedonistic individuals do not seem worthy of the sacrifices being made by Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, et al. I am not sure I would sacrifice myself for such types.

Yes, I do wonder about the social makeup of Zion: there seem to be several distinct social groups, and it's not clear to me how they relate to each other. For lack of a better term, there's the "ruling class" (councelor/"priests"), the "masses" (the Neo cult, the rave crowd), the warriors (captains, special ops like Trinity) and supporting personnel (operators, Zion Control, and presumably numerous engineer types). Then there's the possibility of a divide between those with a jack (and access to fast-food technical knowledge, yeah, like kungfu) and the natural-born. Not to mention all the ideological baggage from the previous life -- surely it does not vanish entirely just because you've been saved.

All in all, Zion seems to be a reasonably diverse, classed, and non-capitalist society.

Conceivably social tension is partly diffused by the common threat. The threat is such that Neo and Company are not so much sacrificing themselves for others as saving their own asses, Matrix being an intolerable alternative.

The irony with the hedonism (much deserved, in my opinion) is that the AI's appear to be as capable of it as any human, or certainly they put up a good imitation.

True enough, in the scenes where we see the sentinels and their drilling machines, they are clearly scrambling over one another in a very organic manner. They may be cold and logical in the matrix, but sentinels are not ordered creatures, they are far more eager and frenzied. Why waste all that energy crawling about when they can just sit in ordered lines and wait for the drills to do their jobs?