»When Smith takes over the Oracle...«

Why does he freak out and laugh all crazy make the wind all crazy? Is it just because she is powerful? Is it important?

Because he's just seen himself defeating Neo:
Wait... I've seen this. This is it, this is the end. Yes, you were laying right there, just like that, and I... I... I stand here, right here, I'm... I'm supposed to say something. I say... Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.

Yea, I’d agree with that. The Oracle said she knew everything from the beginning of this path to the end. But not beyond. Interesting that she could of told Neo a lot more. But like she said about before.. it wasn’t time for you to know

Do you think its time to know - a few more - things?

Hey tozy, what I found interesting (considering a few more things ) is that smith hadn’t seen exactly what he was supposed to say…

Wait... I've seen this. This is it, this is the end. Yes, you were laying right there, just like that, and I... I... I stand here, right here, I'm... I'm supposed to say something.

Now it happens…

I say... Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.

I think this is further confirmed by his response…

What? What did I just say? No... No, this isn't right, this can't be right.

What’s interesting is if the Oracle had known this was going to be said at the end, smith would of know it too. So it just goes to show, again, greater forces at work.

Just as Neo knew where he was SUPPOSED to go, he didn’t know the outcome, until he got there.

It was - Supposed - to happen all along, from the very beginning (the prophetic) to its end (fullfilment).

Get away from me!
Neo: What are you afraid of?
Smith/Oracle: It's a trick

It was the "trick" of the ages, Purposefully played right into the hands of fate, unbalancing and highlighting mans ills (smith), for the purpose of exhausting its energy into this One final Act, and so fullfilling the purpose of its Love... which Trinity had previosly revealed - the Anomaly ~from begining to end:

Apropos: He entered the world to save your life at the cost of his own.

The War is over. biblegateway.com...

Neo: Ju Jitsu? I'm going to learn Ju Jitsu?... Holy shit!

Ju Jitsu:
An art of weaponless self-defense developed in Japan that uses throws, holds, and blows and derives added power from the attacker's own weight and strength.

[“..there is a lot of word play, a lot of hidden other meanings, a lot of multiple meanings” – WachowskiBros (Subtext again)]

He Inev, nice one; let me give you my take at it:

Inevitability wrote:

It was the "trick" of the ages, Purposefully played right into the hands of fate

This reminds me of a post of yours over at the old MXO boards. While searching for this post I stumbeled over this...

Quote:

The Source is.... ready for this... Neo. You. Me. The whole triology is an analogy of the spiritual path. Know thyself is the advice of the Oracle and it is truly what we are here for. It is our pupose. Thomas Anderson wakes up and escapes his sleepful prison then finds himself in realtionship with Trinity (personification of Religion or wisdom traditions) and Morpheus (god of dreams, the higher self) as well as his intuition (the Oracle). With "their" help he loses his ego, looses his fear, is able to see the world without time, and becomes completely self-less. The source literally means "home". The home of all consciousness. Where the path of The One ends

mxoboards2.warnerbros.com...
Except for the explanation of Trinity and Morpheus, I agree wholeheartedly with it.

It is our purpose to "know thyself" and, according to eastern philosophies, eventually....we WILL inevitably get there (Death and rebirth, karma, enlightenment ...)
This, I believe, is the meaning of the prophecy.

Smith's (Rel + Revs) essence, I believe, is Neo's ego; the deluded, outward turned, lower self, which keeps him bound to the manifest world/Maya.
Whereas Neo represents his inward turned aspect, walking the path towards the higher Self (source).

Neo's visions (Trinity, the three lines...) are glimpses of his own intuitive knowledge.
Whereas Smith's vision is a "given" vision. As Merv says: the eyes of the Oracle "cannot be taken, they can only be given."

The part Smith defeating Neo, corresponds with Smith's essence/purpose -> "it is inevitable". This part makes him laugh madly in the Oracle's kitchen.
The "everything that has a beginning..." part, however, does not correspond with his essence. He is being overpowered by a force which speaks trough him, in a different voice and... "Neo",... not "Mr. Anderson".
But it is a part of the vision, and in his delusion Smith can't but sticks to it as such, even though it is not essentially his and he feels that something is wrong. That, I believe, is the meaning of "supposed" to say...

But what is this power which controls the seemingly so powerful and undefeatable Smith?

The Oracle tells Neo that Smith "is you"; they are inseparably connected. They are two sides of the same coin, one being darkness, the other being growing light.
Smith's choice to copy onto Neo, is Neo's choice.

Neo: Can Zion be saved?
Oracle: I'm sorry, I don't have the answer to that question, but if there's an answer, there's only one place you're going to find it.
Neo: Where?
Oracle: You know where.

Smith's vision, given to him by the Oracle, is drawn from Neo's intuitive knowledge. The knowledge that and how the ego has to be overcome, is hidden deep down in Neo's subconscious.
And it is fully unveiled, when Neo is directly confronted with his own, intuitively made choice; when he understands,....and makes Smith act out the choice.

With this act, Neo surrenders his lower self to his Higher self.

Wow, tozy, I’m still trying to get my head around that one. I’m there with you in some of it (and I think we share the same from diff perspec), but on other points, I cant reach I guess there’s many meanings ay? While mine comes more from the Christ/One perspective – Ander-Son. 'Ander' finds its origins in the New Testament Greek root 'andros' meaning man. Christ was often referred to as the "Son of Man". Neo, meaning 'New' being the ~ New son of Man.

You see while I agree there is the whole personal journey perspective of Neo & Smith (as well as many other perspectives/teachings –just fantastic observations/inclusions!) the secrets and analogies, confirmed (at least to me) over and over more adequately perpetrates the meaning of Christ (and our inclusion) which when translated means the "Anointed One" –All Powerful etc (confirmed in Neodämmerung - the climax).

The 'One' perpetrating "the many", both in his life/choice/path and death –death to the old "andros" i.e. "man"

Just as we now see

Inevitability wrote:

I’m there with you in some of it (and I think we share the same from diff perspec), but on other points, I cant reach I guess there’s many meanings ay?

Hehe,... that's a polite way of saying "what the heck are you talking about?"...

I agree about Neo representing aspects of Christ, the most obvious being Neo freeing the world from man's ills (Smith) in sacrifice.
But the big difference between Christ and Neo - in my opinion - is that Christ knew and taught; whereas Neo does neither.
Neo’s path towards saving the world is his path towards Self-knowledge….

Know thyself and from delusion lead me to truth

This path is the essence of Gnosticism and most eastern philosophies/religions.
img.photobucket.com...

I think there is much Neo in this quote from the Tao Te Ching:
The sage relies on actionless activity;
Puts himself in the background; but is always to the fore.
Remains outside; but is always there.
Is it not just because he does strive for any personal end
That all his personal ends are fulfilled?


Now take a look at the Second Renaissance,… bearing in mind the law of Karma, which suggests that a person's mental and physical actions determine the progress of his life on earth; a person's future is his or her own creation….

Thus did man become the architect of his own demise

I agree with you that the machines are “inwardly human”. What, then, is 01, the very centre of machine life?


I like the fact that we both - with our somewhat different approach - can be at home in the trilogy.
I guess it is for a good reason the brothers have brought in Ken Wilber and his integral approach....

Anyways...Why does he freak out and laugh all crazy make the wind all crazy? Is it just because she is powerful? Is it important?

Tytanious wrote:

Anyways...Why does he freak out and laugh all crazy make the wind all crazy? Is it just because she is powerful? Is it important?

The wind all crazy and the rays of light radiating from her body, I believe, is the Oracle's essence leaving her shell, while Smith copies onto her.
After that, Smith laughs all crazy because of what she has left for him inside her shell: The vision of him defeating Neo.

Yea, you see, smith doesn’t have Faith, only darkness, emptiness –the Void ("the purpose of life is to end"). So he doesn’t share the Oracles Belief in neo, her Hope and Gnostic understanding (as yet unfulfilled). It is - by faith (knowledge/wisdom of course, not "blind") – we enter into the “Rest” that tozy is talking about iterated in the Tao Te Ching he mentioned, as well as absolutely and clearly revealed/stated over and over again in the teaching about Christ.

Therefore I concur with tozy on the point he makes…

tozy wrote:

But the big difference between Christ and Neo - in my opinion - is that Christ knew and taught; whereas Neo does neither. Neo’s path towards saving the world is his path towards Self-knowledge….

His path yes. However governed by many external attributes/forces/events -Morpheus, Trinity, Oracle, timeless happenings and many more -iterating the mysteries and forces that govern the divine nature and inward Gnostic Spirit we all must take.

You see Christ is not here now to teach and confirm himself, but has left his spirit to guide us, and it is shown we are to take up his cross –to be united in his sufferings/knowledge about the world he loved and came to save. Therefore 'the many meanings of the Matrix' cannot be lined up to attribute "Neo" to meaning just one thing or "Christ" alone, but US, everyone of us in Our Gnostic Intuitive journey toward the Source (which is truth about all things) and union with him.

I love this because as you said we can both be at home in the Trilogy –our own Personal journey, and doesn’t focus or mix us up with mere tradition/religion that can be so misleading in its appearances due to many who hold its banner, but lack its credence’s. The Matrix focuses on universal truth and calls upon us ALL to take the red pill for ourselves to see how far the rabbit hole goes.

The truth is, no amount of being outwardly affiliated to a religion, traditional or belief - system - can bring us inwardly to the truth we can ONLY find for ourselves.. hence the absolute thrust of the Movies message ..

KNOW THYSELF.

Inside thyself is the path, the truth, the mysteries, yet not without or absent from the many graces that brought us into the world of existence and will take us home, if we but let them.



"It is this feeling that has brought you to me" – Morpheus, and if followed through will take us home to the place of all righteousness, a place called Zion, were the Tao and Brahman abide in the Almighty Peace of the One, in whose Gnostic footsteps we must follow.

Peace and love to you all, and great joy and Hope.

Blessings.

(Not that I have obtained all this, but leaving former things, I journey toward what is ahead)

Inevitability wrote:

His path yes. However governed by many external attributes/forces/events -Morpheus, Trinity, Oracle, timeless happenings...

One can also understand these - as I do - as allegories for internal forces/attributes: believe, love, intuitive knowledge...

Inevitability wrote:

...iterating the mysteries and forces that govern the divine nature and inward Gnostic Spirit we all must take

...being the very means on our path to awarenes of our divine nature.
The development of Morpheuses character and his and Neo's relationship throughout the trilogy, are a good expression of how believe can only be the beginning, not the end. Believe will eventually merge into knowledge.

Therefore...

Inevitability wrote:

Inside thyself is the path, the truth, the mysteries, yet not without or absent from the many graces that brought us into the world of existence and will take us home, if we but let them.

Yep, but whether these graces are a part of our nature, waiting to be unveiled/developed, or are granted to us by a greater force upon walking our path,.... that's where our opinions seem to differ.

That's the beauty of the trilogy,... that both interpretations can be applied.

Inevitability wrote:

...and if followed through will take us home to the place of all righteousness, a place called Zion, were the Tao and Brahman abide in the Almighty Peace of the One, in whose Gnostic footsteps we must follow.

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. Can you elaborate on that?

Inevitability wrote:

Peace and love to you all, and great joy and Hope.

Om shanti

Well of course these 'external' forces can be explained 'internally' as well, and is where were reaching our conclusions as the two intermingle. Its neither one nor the other, but both, and sometimes are indefinable as to which is predomonante. As Morpheus said and is quite true... "everything begins with choice", but ironicaly equally what is revealed and true is greater nature which we are all subject to.

So the goal must be to find harmony in both: -knowledge resulting from belief/reason (as you said) in the greater surroundings both internal and external that we are subject to as well as personal responsibility, being true to oneself. A balance and life’s journey that can be hard to achieve, considering we begin from a flawed position, having been both... "born into bondage" and subject to it –i.e. the Matrix –the Architect of our own demise.

But the thing that amazes me is that although I am a universe of existence and potentiality within myself, ALL that I have has been given: The air that I breath, the lungs that inhale it, the eyes with which I see, ears that hear etc and the mind, the consciousness. ALL is Gift. So while I am aware that - I AM - and encourged to be so, I am also increasingly aware that I Am nothing without what governs it. So I bow.

Reminds me of Gandalfs words... all we have to deside is what to do with the time given to us.

(I’ll get back to your other question later if I can - I’d hoped you’d know what I meant, so it could be hard to explain)

Dual or nondual,... that is the big question...