»Only one matrix«

Why there is not a matrix within a matrix. In the least number of words possible.

It seems obvious to me, contrary to what the merovingian might have us believe, that Neo is half-human and half-machine.

....why?

At the end of the first movie Neo gets shot, point blank, dies and then comes back to life. He dies not only in the matrix, but also in the real world. So why would the arcitecht, who is capable of creating something as wonerfully complex as the matrix, entrust the vital code for the reloading of the matrix to a mere mortal who could die by simply not looking both ways when he crosses the street. He wouldn't of course.

The architect says clearly at the end of Revolutions that it is the fuction of the one to reach the source allowing the 'code' he carries to be reinserted and the matrix 'reloaded'.

It would make no sense for a human to carry such code. Both because death could intervene - and the fact that the code would need to be 'downloaded'... It seems unlikely that a human could carry this code...think back to Morpheus being held by the agents in the first movie. The agents did their best to get Morpheus to "tell" them the information they wanted simply because they had no other way of accessing it.

I find it had to see any other explanation of Neo's 'resurrection' could be possible and still hold together the thread of the movie. The rules of the Matrix can be bent, not broken (by humans) as Morpheus explains. This is why all the others (Morpheus etc) cannot avoid 'pain' in the matrix just by realising that it 'isn't real'. Trinity's death is different. Neo has to take out the bullet and then perform matrix style CPR....she doesn't just come back to life for no reason (as did Neo).

So what does this have to do with rejecting a matrix within a matrix theory...?

Just as the sentinals need no physical connection to the source to be controlled by it. Neo (part machine) needs no physical connection (the matrix) to 'reach all the way back to the source'.

Thus he can stop sentinals in their tracks...it also explains his 'Neo vision' in the third movie...and even being able to see the matrix code in the first movie ~ When Neo died in the first movie the machines reloaded him (so to speak) thus awakening the until dormant machine side of him...allowing him to stop bullets, see the code and jump 'inside' an agent.

Also in the second movie the visions of Trinity dying are messages from the Oracle. She sent them to him via his connection to the source to ultimately influence his decision at the end of the movie...

A matrix within a matrix would also undermine various plot developments in the movie which I will gladly explore if discussion is prompted by this post.

To conclude a single matrix theory is totally plausible and the most logical reading of the matrix movies taken together. It seems to me that the matrix within a matrix theory was only postulated to somehow explain Neo's ability to stop the sentinals, which can be explained, entirely more sensibly I believe, through a single matrix theory.

This is my first post but i have to say to you that, that theory make more sence to me then any other weirdo theory. Next time someone bashes the matrix movies ill bring it up to them. it blows me away.

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Just as the sentinals need no physical connection to the source to be controlled by it. Neo (part machine) needs no physical connection (the matrix) to 'reach all the way back to the source'.

I cannot argue with that.

Sounds like a solid theory to me, except for one point. Why would Agent Smith kill Neo, if the machines wanted to wake up this 'machine side' of him? Couldn't they just as well have awoken it without having to kill him and waste agent resources?

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Why would Agent Smith kill Neo, if the machines wanted to wake up this 'machine side' of him? Couldn't they just as well have awoken it without having to kill him and waste agent resources?

That is a very interesting and intelligent question - hopefully I have an answer for you.

Agents are programs designed to eliminate all threats to the matrix. Cleaners, if you will, that sanitise the Matrix from unwanted 'pests'. As we find out in the first movie the Agents don't know that Neo is 'the One' they think he is just another target.

So why don't they know? Why are they trying to kill him in the first place? Why are they not programmed to simply escort him to the source?

The Agents, in trying to stop 'the One' from reaching the source, are at the same time convincing Neo/Morpheus/Trinity etc that he actually must go to the source. What I mean here is that the Architect is using a form of reverse Psycology in a way.

So why do they actually have to kill him? I will attempt to answer this in two parts: the first part of my answer is that they don't have to...they just do! Neo has a 'fail-safe' in that he cannot die anyway (because the machines will reboot him).

So why are agents simply programmed to leave Neo alone? Well...It would be easier to write a program instructing the Agents to simply 'try and kill Neo' rather than writing one that says...'make him think you are trying to kill him but actually dont kill him'. In this way the Architect is not wasting resources - he is conserving resources because the program written in such a way that it is a 'simpiler program to perform the job that he wants them (the Agents) to do'. The Architechts resources are the only resources that matter because the rest is just the running of algorithims and electrical signals interpreted by a mind 'jacked in' to the matrix.

The second part of my answer is this...Resurrection from death also puts the fact that Neo is 'the One' beyond doubt in everyones mind. Neo was told by the Oracle that he was 'waiting for his next life...' so when he comes back to life i'm sure he makes the connection that he is now the One. It also convinces Morpheus watching on 'matrix TV' etc. Although Morpheus believed strongly all along he still looks rather surprised when Neo gets up. Making it such a monumental irregularity to normal physical laws concludes the issue (of whether Neo is the One) more so than if Neo were to wake up one day and all of a sudden be able to see the code. It also gives more leaverage to the decisions of the main characters when they have to choose between fighting off the sentinals which are about to invade the city or tripping off trying to fulfill the 'Prophecy'.

For me both of these parts work in combination. The way the agents are written combined with the significance of death perform a dual function in driving Morpheus, Neo and the rest of the crew - towards the source.

So really what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe that he had to die...but that his death was a 'bonus' to the machines...because it drove the rebels harder towards the source - which is exactly where the Architect wanted them to go.

Bravo. Amzingly put. I have tried to construct your exact thoughts together but have failed several times where you have succeeded. Bravo.

I really like the concept you have.
I have one series of questions, though.
The One was found by - who? Morpheus?
If so, the machines are dependant on humans for the reload:

Morpheus' one weakness, as far as I can see is that he trusts the Oracle in the first place.

So, my question is: did the machines rely on the weakness of humans in the Zion world to locate The One?

If so, the sentinels could have jeopardised the whole scheme by slicing up Morpheus, couldn't they?

Or are the sentinels programmed in a similar way to Smith: Try to destroy Zion, but don't kill Morpheus?

That would imply Morpheus is part machine (program) - would it not?

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If so, the sentinels could have jeopardised the whole scheme by slicing up Morpheus, couldn't they?

This is an excellent question!

Considering that Morpheus is essential to the path of 'the One' the question is, I guess, what would happen if he were killed...? I should add that the 'Morpheus problem' does not only apply to my interpretation but to all interpretations. But lets have a look at the possible theories on the matter...

1) The Agents are programmed not to kill Morpheus. We can discredit this because the Oracle tells Neo explicitly that a choice has to be made between Morpheus's life and Neo's. Thus if Neo had not gone to the aid of Morpheus he would have died at the hands of Tank by 'pulling the plug'.

2) The Sentinals are programmed not to kill Morpheus. Well I don't think this is right either. I don't see firstly how the sentinals would be able to 'recognise' Morpheus in the real world and it seems that the sentinals, like the agents are just simply sent to seek and destroy - take Thadius and the Osiris for instance.

3) The Oracle was certain that Morpheus would not die and would find 'the One' based on her computational abilities. I guess this is feasible but it is not obvious to me that the Oracle has power to forsee events that happen outside the Matrix construct - thus could she forsee that Morpheus would not die at the 'hands' of a sentinal or simply by falling over in Zion and cracking his head on the coffee table! Seems doubtful.

4) Morpheus, like Neo, cannot die (he is part machine too)...well there can only be one 'One' so lets just assume that this is not possible...? Just wouldn't seem to make sense.

5) The Oracle influences the other characters to protect Morpheus at all costs...something like she said to Neo...'without Morpheus, we're lost'. The Oracle could possibly influence people to protect Morpheus both inside the Matrix and in the real world. But although this may help Morpheus out on more than 1 occassion...it is not 100% certain to keep him alive.

6) Morpheus is not essential to the path of the One (Neo can be awakened by anybody). Does this one work...? Well at first I thought no because Morpheus has been told (by the Oracle who doesn't make a habit of lying or telling people things that might not eventuate) that he would find 'the One'and since Morpheus told Neo that he has been looking for him his entire life I presumed that she must have told him a long time ago. HOWEVER, this does not necessarily follow. Maybe she told him that he must 'look for the one' and then only a short time before Neo was awakened did she tell him that he would actually 'find the One'. But there is still a gap! Although the odds would have increased dramatically in his favour it is still not 100% certain. There would be nothing to stop Morpheus from dying from something trivial in the real world.


So what is the answer...?
Well, here is where the true genius of the brothers shows itself. The answer, I believe, is to look to the themes of the movie itself..many themes are presented throughout...'fate', 'casusality' and 'choice' are three big ones. I believe that Morpheus personifies fate where fate is a power that predetermines events unalterably. Morpheus's fate is to find Neo.

But, I hear you ask, even if this is true how do the machines know it is Morpheus's fate...? Well I have my own ideas and could theorise...but this post is long enough as it is...someone else can talk now.

I do think it involves a leap of faith down the rabbit hole to some extent though.

nicely put

Interesting. I however, have still not discounted the idea that the Matrix /Machine World reality is in fact a huge computer simulation itself in which a future human society is trying to create a true AI sympathetic to it's creator. Scenario is similar to 'The Thirteenth Floor' premise.
Kinda like a Matrix within a Matrix within a Matrix sort of thing.
How better to create AI than have a computer create it itself?

Hmmm. interesting?

Theseus, to me your arguements make me think they argue FOR a MwM just opposite of what sounds as your intent, a non MwM.

1. If neo being a program is key & a human probaby can't carry such code, then how is it Neo is a human, born in a pod & that is unplugged & is a human in the real world, zion, etc.?

2. The Neo as an on/off switched codette doesn't seem plausible either.
You say Neo 'dying in matrix AND in real world'....& revived in both...seems to lend itself more to MwM theory than otherwise!

I lost my matrix zeal for a bit, but when dig into it again will explore more.
There's alot one can analyze but just off top of my head I do see alot of things that give credence to the MwM idea.

How can those 'coincidences' be choreographed like they are in BOTH the matrix & real world unless actually is a MwM? (The hovercrafts walkway falling killing some, & then sentinels hitting it...all forcing Trin into the picture again?)

I think the MORE you look at it, the more you get the idea it is a MwM. That there actually may even be MANY matrices w/in matrices....& somewhere they connect to the real world indeed. (I suggested they may even intermingle in some form or fashion in some ways).

Really all 3 views are possible: the movie as genuine in it's depictions of a matrix & a real world. 2. A MwM & it's various combinations....including 3. The last guys thoughts about all of it a matrix UNDERNEATH the view & control of a higher REAL WORLD level, either human or otherwise. (That last one could be the most fun!....that could extend the franchise more than anything too. However, it's also a bit like TV's 'ALIAS'...which was GREAT until it seemed they had to exaggerate & super involve the incredulous story-line further to keep the series going & on as much of an edge as they 'can.')

I guess maybe a 'satisfactory' stretch is that 'god(universal matter-energy-infinite-Intelligence) threw in the Providence in the real battle of the humans & the machines w/zion being real & ending in a real truce.

Somehow the COINCIDENCES are THE THING that flew right in my face....as HOW CAN IT BE, IF NOT A MwM?

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How can those 'coincidences' be choreographed like they are in BOTH the matrix & real world unless actually is a MwM? (The hovercrafts walkway falling killing some, & then sentinels hitting it...all forcing Trin into the picture again?) Very nice point here IndyDallasJones. You can read my "Soren's crew Theory" on that matter. Also, some facts which are plausible to be analyzed are those related to the Oracle. We know she (or IT if we think of it as a machine or program) has an unbelievable ability to "predict" future events. But we all know that this isn't a fantasy movie, this is SCIENCE FICCTION!(science from the work of mankind; multiplying resources of technology, which get better every day as we speak) So, we know that she does not foresee these events with "magic" or some sort of unknown source. She(or the matrix, and thus the matrix sends the info to her, doesn't matter anyways) calculates with highly complex probabilities, including algorithms(wrong spell?), which combined with endlessly multiplying and infinitely progressively A.I created second over second to over pass it's "makers"; thus they smartly anticipate what may or possibly will happen in a near future. Now, the Oracle Knows many thing. She knows from the death of Neo(including Morpheus possible death if not Neo's), the fact that Morpheus would find him, that Trinity would fall in love with him, to the even intriguing event of niobe choosing weather or not she would HELD NEO ON HIS PATH. Probabilities only within a system of control over it, where the events are known from here to there by the architect, "the matrix has you" remember? The matrix also "watches you", they are watching and they pretty much know what happens where and by whom. This event drives my attention away, as the predication is drawn from the "real world" and not from within the matrix. The Oracle can not predict or calculate which events may or may not happen on the "real world". She has attributions, those "powers" of which we are given by superior forces, and we thus have our own limitations, our limits, our selves as and existence in this reality that we live. the oracle can not calculate those type of events, they ARE OUT OF HER REACH, she can not "see" beyond the computer generated world of the matrix, only those within her power (presence of choice) thus she can only rely on the fact that "outside" events must be calculated in other way, Neo's path (an every anomaly’s path) must conclude on either 2 ways:1) The one you saw on the movie ( he chooses the left door, thus he does not reload the matrix, instead a self automatic mechanism comes around, Smith, to stimulate the anomaly to come to the machine city, and to make a deal with them) the other one would be:2) Neo reloaded the matrix with his prime program in him after choosing the right door on the white room with the Architect. MWM theory obviously solves this matter. Think of it. Here I have my Soren's crew theory: Ok, let’s put off the context in which the situation takes place in the movie(matrix 2): Three teams must accomplish a mission in order to leave ready the path of the One to enter the Source; 1)Soren’s team.2) Neo’s team and 3) Niobe’s team has to complete their own tasks. Neo’s team, as we already know, has to wait for the other two teams to finish their jobs, Niobe’s team has to destroy the nuclear reactor and Soren’s team must deactivate the emergency system. Now, before they even begin Neo talks with Trin to clear up some things that were in the air. Neo tells Trin to stay out of the matrix no matter what, and so, she does. Thus, Soren’s team replaces Trin’s place and job; they go and deactivate the emergency system to let Neo go into the Source. But it is here where the action gets fluttering, as the time passes, and every team accomplishes their tasks, the Vigilant and Soren’s team are hit by a bomb from some group of sentinels, therefore forcing Trin to get into the Matrix to save Neo’s team from exploding into peaces. Concordantly, each of Trin’s actions are made reality as the time goes on, Neo’s dreams are transformed into reality…into visions. It is here were my point is. How can the machines have “guessed” every move from the three teams (the teams in the “real world”, not inside of the Matrix), how could the machines have “guessed” that Neo was going to tell Trin to stay off the Matrix during the mission, and how did they knew that if Neo did told her to stay out, how did they know which cause would affect something in order to make Trin go into the Matrix to finish the job, and make the choice of the One with the Architect possible? Imagine this situation: Neo and Trin are talking, Neo DOES NOT tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix, instead he says everything’s alright. Thus, Trin gets inside Neo’s team, awaiting the other two to finish Soren’s team, thus making the dream of Neo not from coming true. Now, imagine the opposite situation, where Neo DOES TELL Trin to stay out of the Matrix, and thus Soren’s team has to do the job, there are two possible situations in here; either Soren’s team gets killed by the bomb from the sentinels, or, they stay alive and finish the job, which concordantly will bring up a DIFERENT CHOICE when Neo is with the Architect, because Trin would have not entered the Matrix, and Neo’s dream wouldn’t have come true.(the other situation would be the one which is shown in the movie) Thus to keep the dream from coming true, they would have had to KNOW WHICH CAUSE would’ve brought Trin into the Matrix, vis a vis: killing Soren’s team. How did they know that by sending sentinels to destroy the Vigilant would bring Trin into the Matrix? There are two possible explanations; either they are super-gods, and know everything, or the “real world” is in fact been watched by some else, vis a vis: the “real world” is another Matrix, another way of CONTROL. This way the machines can observe and control every step of the teams, and can actually know which CAUSE would produce on making Trin to go into the Matrix, to cause an EFFECT; to make Trin to go in, making the choice of the One possible, and altogether the dream of Neo made reality. Now many questions arise from these facts, some of them could be: “How did the machines know that Neo was having nightmares of Trin falling?” “How did they know if Neo was going to tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix?” ”How did they know if they needed to destroy the Vigilant and its crew to make Trin go in thus make the choice of the one possible?” One answer to this, besides the obvious one that I’m pointing out here (MWM THEORY), would be: every One from the past cycles have all had nightmares, but not all have had one of their love for someone, Trin in this case (as the Architect said, Neo experienced it in a far more specific way, vis a vis, LOVE), thus this argument or answer self contradicts. Besides every One is different and the machines can not take the risk on seeing how equal did this One become from the past one, past experiences CAN NOT PREDICT future situations. My real point here is that the machines CAN NOT KNOW what dreams Neo was having, and all of the further actions which take place are also UNPREDICTABLE, they can not take the risk to “think they know” or have the past facts under control to “predict” some future situations; the actions which happened were not just coincidence, watch how by the time the movie is passing the shots of the mission of the three teams, and Morpheus talking with all the members, he says that he does not believe in coincidences or chances.(coincidence? NOPE, they put that in that exact time for a reason). Also, how did the Oracle know that Neo wasn't sleeping? And knew what dreams he was having (or part of them a least)? I know that the last Ones might've had nightmares and thus it'll make this One predictable, but we all know that past experiences can not predict the future don't we? Every One is DIFERENT in its kind, the Oracle wouldn't have risked saying" I know you are not sleeping...." Ahhh, and don't come with the typical responses of “the oracle knows everything...." Because we all know that she is nothing but a program and she know past experiences from the past cycles of the matrix, thus she has fragments of info. from past experiences.

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[quote]
How can those 'coincidences' be choreographed like they are in BOTH the matrix & real world unless actually is a MwM? (The hovercrafts walkway falling killing some, & then sentinels hitting it...all forcing Trin into the picture again?)

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@PiukNeo

You can edit the post with the Edit button (top right of any of your own posts) and move the [/quote] tag from the end of the post to the place you want it.

How can those 'coincidences' be choreographed like they are in BOTH the matrix & real world unless actually is a MwM? (The hovercrafts walkway falling killing some, & then sentinels hitting it...all forcing Trin into the picture again?)




Very nice point here IndyDallasJones. You can read my "Soren's crew Theory" on that matter. Also, some facts which are plausible to be analyzed are those related to the Oracle. We know she (or IT if we think of it as a machine or program) has an unbelievable ability to "predict" future events. But we all know that this isn't a fantasy movie, this is SCIENCE FICCTION!(science from the work of mankind; multiplying resources of technology, which get better every day as we speak) So, we know that she does not foresee these events with "magic" or some sort of unknown source. She(or the matrix, and thus the matrix sends the info to her, doesn't matter anyways) calculates with highly complex probabilities, including algorithms(wrong spell?), which combined with endlessly multiplying and infinitely progressively A.I created second over second to over pass it's "makers"; thus they smartly anticipate what may or possibly will happen in a near future.

Now, the Oracle Knows many thing. She knows from the death of Neo(including Morpheus possible death if not Neo's), the fact that Morpheus would find him, that Trinity would fall in love with him, to the even intriguing event of niobe choosing weather or not she would HELD NEO ON HIS PATH. Probabilities only within a system of control over it, where the events are known from here to there by the architect, "the matrix has you" remember? The matrix also "watches you", they are watching and they pretty much know what happens where and by whom.

This event drives my attention away, as the predication is drawn from the "real world" and not from within the matrix. The Oracle can not predict or calculate which events may or may not happen on the "real world". She has attributions, those "powers" of which we are given by superior forces, and we thus have our own limitations, our limits, our selves as and existence in this reality that we live. the oracle can not calculate those type of events, they ARE OUT OF HER REACH, she can not "see" beyond the computer generated world of the matrix, only those within her power (presence of choice) thus she can only rely on the fact that "outside" events must be calculated in other way, Neo's path (an every anomaly’s path) must conclude on either 2 ways:1) The one you saw on the movie ( he chooses the left door, thus he does not reload the matrix, instead a self automatic mechanism comes around, Smith, to stimulate the anomaly to come to the machine city, and to make a deal with them) the other one would be:2) Neo reloaded the matrix with his prime program in him after choosing the right door on the white room with the Architect. MWM theory obviously solves this matter. Think of it.

Here I have my Soren's crew theory:

Ok, let’s put off the context in which the situation takes place in the movie(matrix 2): Three teams must accomplish a mission in order to leave ready the path of the One to enter the Source; 1)Soren’s team.2) Neo’s team and 3) Niobe’s team has to complete their own tasks. Neo’s team, as we already know, has to wait for the other two teams to finish their jobs, Niobe’s team has to destroy the nuclear reactor and Soren’s team must deactivate the emergency system. Now, before they even begin Neo talks with Trin to clear up some things that were in the air. Neo tells Trin to stay out of the matrix no matter what, and so, she does. Thus, Soren’s team replaces Trin’s place and job; they go and deactivate the emergency system to let Neo go into the Source. But it is here where the action gets fluttering, as the time passes, and every team accomplishes their tasks, the Vigilant and Soren’s team are hit by a bomb from some group of sentinels, therefore forcing Trin to get into the Matrix to save Neo’s team from exploding into peaces. Concordantly, each of Trin’s actions are made reality as the time goes on, Neo’s dreams are transformed into reality…into visions.

It is here were my point is. How can the machines have “guessed” every move from the three teams (the teams in the “real world”, not inside of the Matrix), how could the machines have “guessed” that Neo was going to tell Trin to stay off the Matrix during the mission, and how did they knew that if Neo did told her to stay out, how did they know which cause would affect something in order to make Trin go into the Matrix to finish the job, and make the choice of the One with the Architect possible?

Imagine this situation: Neo and Trin are talking, Neo DOES NOT tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix, instead he says everything’s alright. Thus, Trin gets inside Neo’s team, awaiting the other two to finish Soren’s team, thus making the dream of Neo not from coming true. Now, imagine the opposite situation, where Neo DOES TELL Trin to stay out of the Matrix, and thus Soren’s team has to do the job, there are two possible situations in here; either Soren’s team gets killed by the bomb from the sentinels, or, they stay alive and finish the job, which concordantly will bring up a DIFERENT CHOICE when Neo is with the Architect, because Trin would have not entered the Matrix, and Neo’s dream wouldn’t have come true.(the other situation would be the one which is shown in the movie) Thus to keep the dream from coming true, they would have had to KNOW WHICH CAUSE would’ve brought Trin into the Matrix, vis a vis: killing Soren’s team. How did they know that by sending sentinels to destroy the Vigilant would bring Trin into the Matrix? There are two possible explanations; either they are super-gods, and know everything, or the “real world” is in fact been watched by some else, vis a vis: the “real world” is another Matrix, another way of CONTROL. This way the machines can observe and control every step of the teams, and can actually know which CAUSE would produce on making Trin to go into the Matrix, to cause an EFFECT; to make Trin to go in, making the choice of the One possible, and altogether the dream of Neo made reality.

Now many questions arise from these facts, some of them could be: “How did the machines know that Neo was having nightmares of Trin falling?” “How did they know if Neo was going to tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix?” ”How did they know if they needed to destroy the Vigilant and its crew to make Trin go in thus make the choice of the one possible?” One answer to this, besides the obvious one that I’m pointing out here (MWM THEORY), would be: every One from the past cycles have all had nightmares, but not all have had one of their love for someone, Trin in this case (as the Architect said, Neo experienced it in a far more specific way, vis a vis, LOVE), thus this argument or answer self contradicts. Besides every One is different and the machines can not take the risk on seeing how equal did this One become from the past one, past experiences CAN NOT PREDICT future situations.

My real point here is that the machines CAN NOT KNOW what dreams Neo was having, and all of the further actions which take place are also UNPREDICTABLE, they can not take the risk to “think they know” or have the past facts under control to “predict” some future situations; the actions which happened were not just coincidence, watch how by the time the movie is passing the shots of the mission of the three teams, and Morpheus talking with all the members, he says that he does not believe in coincidences or chances.(coincidence? NOPE, they put that in that exact time for a reason).

Also, how did the Oracle know that Neo wasn't sleeping? And knew what dreams he was having (or part of them a least)? I know that the last Ones might've had nightmares and thus it'll make this One predictable, but we all know that past experiences can not predict the future don't we? Every One is DIFERENT in its kind, the Oracle wouldn't have risked saying" I know you are not sleeping...." Ahhh, and don't come with the typical responses of “the oracle knows everything...." Because we all know that she is nothing but a program and she know past experiences from the past cycles of the matrix, thus she has fragments of info. from past experiences.

Quote:

How can those 'coincidences' be choreographed like they are in BOTH the matrix & real world unless actually is a MwM? (The hovercrafts walkway falling killing some, & then sentinels hitting it...all forcing Trin into the picture again?)

Very nice point here IndyDallasJones. You can read my "Soren's crew Theory" on that matter. Also, some facts which are plausible to be analyzed are those related to the Oracle. We know she (or IT if we think of it as a machine or program) has an unbelievable ability to "predict" future events. But we all know that this isn't a fantasy movie, this is SCIENCE FICCTION!(science from the work of mankind; multiplying resources of technology, which get better every day as we speak) So, we know that she does not foresee these events with "magic" or some sort of unknown source. She(or the matrix, and thus the matrix sends the info to her, doesn't matter anyways) calculates with highly complex probabilities, including algorithms(wrong spell?), which combined with endlessly multiplying and infinitely progressively A.I created second over second to over pass it's "makers"; thus they smartly anticipate what may or possibly will happen in a near future.

Now, the Oracle Knows many thing. She knows from the death of Neo(including Morpheus possible death if not Neo's), the fact that Morpheus would find him, that Trinity would fall in love with him, to the even intriguing event of niobe choosing weather or not she would HELD NEO ON HIS PATH. Probabilities only within a system of control over it, where the events are known from here to there by the architect, "the matrix has you" remember? The matrix also "watches you", they are watching and they pretty much know what happens where and by whom.

This event drives my attention away, as the predication is drawn from the "real world" and not from within the matrix. The Oracle can not predict or calculate which events may or may not happen on the "real world". She has attributions, those "powers" of which we are given by superior forces, and we thus have our own limitations, our limits, our selves as and existence in this reality that we live. the oracle can not calculate those type of events, they ARE OUT OF HER REACH, she can not "see" beyond the computer generated world of the matrix, only those within her power (presence of choice) thus she can only rely on the fact that "outside" events must be calculated in other way, Neo's path (an every anomaly’s path) must conclude on either 2 ways:1) The one you saw on the movie ( he chooses the left door, thus he does not reload the matrix, instead a self automatic mechanism comes around, Smith, to stimulate the anomaly to come to the machine city, and to make a deal with them) the other one would be:2) Neo reloaded the matrix with his prime program in him after choosing the right door on the white room with the Architect. MWM theory obviously solves this matter. Think of it.

Here I have my Soren's crew theory:

Ok, let’s put off the context in which the situation takes place in the movie(matrix 2): Three teams must accomplish a mission in order to leave ready the path of the One to enter the Source; 1)Soren’s team.2) Neo’s team and 3) Niobe’s team has to complete their own tasks. Neo’s team, as we already know, has to wait for the other two teams to finish their jobs, Niobe’s team has to destroy the nuclear reactor and Soren’s team must deactivate the emergency system. Now, before they even begin Neo talks with Trin to clear up some things that were in the air. Neo tells Trin to stay out of the matrix no matter what, and so, she does. Thus, Soren’s team replaces Trin’s place and job; they go and deactivate the emergency system to let Neo go into the Source. But it is here where the action gets fluttering, as the time passes, and every team accomplishes their tasks, the Vigilant and Soren’s team are hit by a bomb from some group of sentinels, therefore forcing Trin to get into the Matrix to save Neo’s team from exploding into peaces. Concordantly, each of Trin’s actions are made reality as the time goes on, Neo’s dreams are transformed into reality…into visions.

It is here were my point is. How can the machines have “guessed” every move from the three teams (the teams in the “real world”, not inside of the Matrix), how could the machines have “guessed” that Neo was going to tell Trin to stay off the Matrix during the mission, and how did they knew that if Neo did told her to stay out, how did they know which cause would affect something in order to make Trin go into the Matrix to finish the job, and make the choice of the One with the Architect possible?

Imagine this situation: Neo and Trin are talking, Neo DOES NOT tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix, instead he says everything’s alright. Thus, Trin gets inside Neo’s team, awaiting the other two to finish Soren’s team, thus making the dream of Neo not from coming true. Now, imagine the opposite situation, where Neo DOES TELL Trin to stay out of the Matrix, and thus Soren’s team has to do the job, there are two possible situations in here; either Soren’s team gets killed by the bomb from the sentinels, or, they stay alive and finish the job, which concordantly will bring up a DIFERENT CHOICE when Neo is with the Architect, because Trin would have not entered the Matrix, and Neo’s dream wouldn’t have come true.(the other situation would be the one which is shown in the movie) Thus to keep the dream from coming true, they would have had to KNOW WHICH CAUSE would’ve brought Trin into the Matrix, vis a vis: killing Soren’s team. How did they know that by sending sentinels to destroy the Vigilant would bring Trin into the Matrix? There are two possible explanations; either they are super-gods, and know everything, or the “real world” is in fact been watched by some else, vis a vis: the “real world” is another Matrix, another way of CONTROL. This way the machines can observe and control every step of the teams, and can actually know which CAUSE would produce on making Trin to go into the Matrix, to cause an EFFECT; to make Trin to go in, making the choice of the One possible, and altogether the dream of Neo made reality.

Now many questions arise from these facts, some of them could be: “How did the machines know that Neo was having nightmares of Trin falling?” “How did they know if Neo was going to tell Trin to stay out of the Matrix?” ”How did they know if they needed to destroy the Vigilant and its crew to make Trin go in thus make the choice of the one possible?” One answer to this, besides the obvious one that I’m pointing out here (MWM THEORY), would be: every One from the past cycles have all had nightmares, but not all have had one of their love for someone, Trin in this case (as the Architect said, Neo experienced it in a far more specific way, vis a vis, LOVE), thus this argument or answer self contradicts. Besides every One is different and the machines can not take the risk on seeing how equal did this One become from the past one, past experiences CAN NOT PREDICT future situations.

My real point here is that the machines CAN NOT KNOW what dreams Neo was having, and all of the further actions which take place are also UNPREDICTABLE, they can not take the risk to “think they know” or have the past facts under control to “predict” some future situations; the actions which happened were not just coincidence, watch how by the time the movie is passing the shots of the mission of the three teams, and Morpheus talking with all the members, he says that he does not believe in coincidences or chances.(coincidence? NOPE, they put that in that exact time for a reason).

Also, how did the Oracle know that Neo wasn't sleeping? And knew what dreams he was having (or part of them a least)? I know that the last Ones might've had nightmares and thus it'll make this One predictable, but we all know that past experiences can not predict the future don't we? Every One is DIFERENT in its kind, the Oracle wouldn't have risked saying" I know you are not sleeping...." Ahhh, and don't come with the typical responses of “the oracle knows everything...." Because we all know that she is nothing but a program and she know past experiences from the past cycles of the matrix, thus she has fragments of info. from past experiences.

I always have a problem accepting Zion as a real world, my hunch is that its a world created by the Oracle, if the Architect is the father of the Matrix, Oracle is like the mother right? The Oracle is just a program, how could it possibly knows the dream that Neo has in the real world? And how could Neo's dream is exactly the same as what happened i the Matrix, frame per frame? One of the episode in the Animatrix, poses an answer, if one never experienced the real world, how could one knows that they are not dreaming? This is a science fiction, but the way it was set up, is different than the way Star Trek was setup for instance. In Star Trek, beaming some1 from one location to another is accepted, but for an artificial intelligence to understand the brain's function (talking, standing, walking) in such a short period of time (Smith in Zion) when the brain is at least a billion times more sophisticated than any AI software out here now, that is just too much. The only explanation, is that Zion is not real. Nothing that is happening in the trilogy could 100% prove that Zion is real. Remember, this movie is about human under an AI's control, so its not about proving proving the theory of MwM, coz its 100% possible, its about you naysayers proving that Zion is real.

I'll be honest and say I've speed read most of the messages so forgive me if I repeat anything.

Morpheus said something like 'Walking the path and knowing the path are different things.' The Agents were sent to kill Neo, because they weren't aware of all the facts. I'm guessing that new agents are created with each new version of the Matrix to fit in with it. MIB's strolling around with werewolves and vampires makes no sense!

The truth could be that, as the Oracle said, Neo needed to die (ie lose his humanity) attached to the Matrix and be reborn from it. Only this rebirth from the machine would enable him to release his innate power. How the architect fits into this is anyones guess!

Theseus wrote:

At the end of the first movie Neo gets shot, point blank, dies and then comes back to life. He dies not only in the matrix, but also in the real world. So why would the arcitecht, who is capable of creating something as wonerfully complex as the matrix, entrust the vital code for the reloading of the matrix to a mere mortal who could die by simply not looking both ways when he crosses the street. He wouldn't of course.

Just where in the whole matrix trilogy does it say(or even imply) that Neo is a machine(part machine, whatever)? Never, nowhere. You are purely thowing words out of your mouth with no abse at all. Let me just give you an example of a GOOD argument (thesis) with its base: in the matrix trilogy we are told that there is a One which has to be found. Just who says (or implies) so? The Oracle. Just who the hell is her? At the begining of the trilogy we think she is the Propheziser(spell?) of the prophesy, but leter on we get to know the whlo pitcure (that she is a control program).
Know, that is what we can call a SOLID ARGUMENT.
And, on top of all, the Architect him self told Neo he is IRREVOCABLY human (see transcript on bottom).

Architect: Hello, Neo.

Neo: Who are you?

Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.

Neo: Why am I here?


So, as you can already gather, neo can not be part machine, program, or whatever; he is purely HUMAN.

Theseus wrote:

Why there is not a matrix within a matrix. In the least number of words possible. It seems obvious to me, contrary to what the merovingian might have us believe, that Neo is half-human and half-machine.

I’ve said this all along, and Theseus gives some great insight as to why we should believe this.

Theseus wrote:

....why? At the end of the first movie Neo gets shot, point blank, dies and then comes back to life. He dies not only in the matrix, but also in the real world. So why would the arcitecht, who is capable of creating something as wonerfully complex as the matrix, entrust the vital code for the reloading of the matrix to a mere mortal who could die by simply not looking both ways when he crosses the street. He wouldn't of course. The architect says clearly at the end of Revolutions that it is the fuction of the one to reach the source allowing the 'code' he carries to be reinserted and the matrix 'reloaded'. It would make no sense for a human to carry such code. Both because death could intervene - and the fact that the code would need to be 'downloaded'... It seems unlikely that a human could carry this code...think back to Morpheus being held by the agents in the first movie. The agents did their best to get Morpheus to "tell" them the information they wanted simply because they had no other way of accessing it. I find it had to see any other explanation of Neo's 'resurrection' could be possible and still hold together the thread of the movie. The rules of the Matrix can be bent, not broken (by humans) as Morpheus explains. This is why all the others (Morpheus etc) cannot avoid 'pain' in the matrix just by realising that it 'isn't real'. Trinity's death is different. Neo has to take out the bullet and then perform matrix style CPR....she doesn't just come back to life for no reason (as did Neo). So what does this have to do with rejecting a matrix within a matrix theory...? Just as the sentinals need no physical connection to the source to be controlled by it. Neo (part machine) needs no physical connection (the matrix) to 'reach all the way back to the source'. Thus he can stop sentinals in their tracks...it also explains his 'Neo vision' in the third movie...and even being able to see the matrix code in the first movie ~ When Neo died in the first movie the machines reloaded him (so to speak) thus awakening the until dormant machine side of him...allowing him to stop bullets, see the code and jump 'inside' an agent. Also in the second movie the visions of Trinity dying are messages from the Oracle. She sent them to him via his connection to the source to ultimately influence his decision at the end of the movie... A matrix within a matrix would also undermine various plot developments in the movie which I will gladly explore if discussion is prompted by this post. To conclude a single matrix theory is totally plausible and the most logical reading of the matrix movies taken together. It seems to me that the matrix within a matrix theory was only postulated to somehow explain Neo's ability to stop the sentinals, which can be explained, entirely more sensibly I believe, through a single matrix theory.

Again, well said. People always tend to over analyze situations. This also happens continuously with people and this trilogy. In this case, the simplest answer is the best response.

Agent Zero wrote:

This is my first post but i have to say to you that, that theory make more sence to me then any other weirdo theory. Next time someone bashes the matrix movies ill bring it up to them. it blows me away. Quote: Just as the sentinals need no physical connection to the source to be controlled by it. Neo (part machine) needs no physical connection (the matrix) to 'reach all the way back to the source'. I cannot argue with that.

Ever heard of radio? Or something similar?

Neo is not human. The Architect says he is irrevocably human for the same reason the oracle leads him into things and the Agents try to kill him even though he is an instrument of the Matrix. It is all part of the control they need to keep him doing what they want and keep the others (Morpheus, the Zionites, Smith, Merv, etc.) doing things just how they planned. Reverse psychology. They have calculated what he needs to know and what he needs not to know to make things progress as they planned. I wont retype the long explanations of this that I previously have but the links are below..