»Sack the Zion weapon designers«

Well, the reason that all their ships were lost is that they made that defensive perimeter... before they could spread out, they got EMP'd.

But yeah... a small group of APUs could guard a shielded EMP bomb... they defend it till they're surrounded... and Fwumf!... fry everything in the area... the pilots dismount and run for cover... radio or laser-signal Zion that their position has been breached and hide!...

about half a dozen bomb points like that could have seriously slowed the Machines.

Hell, I could have four unarmed humans cloaked in heat refractive material (to keep them invisible to sensors) posted with those bombs hiding in possible breach points... just to take out the rear-guard of the machines when they pass through.

You're right, John... I guess they should execute the commander as a traitor and obvious incompetent.

I also would've had the APUs equipped with the guns that fire some kind of lightning, instead of machine guns.

Best Reasons Why Mass EMP doesn't work:

1.) EMP's take larg amounts of recource, more than Zion has, thus its only on the ships so that they can survive.

2.) (main one here) The Machines have more squids than Zion has EMP's.

I imagine it'd go something like this...

EMP burst... machines fall..
run to get to next EMP...
wait for machines
EMP burst.. machines fall..
etc..

Repeat until Humans are out of EMPs.
If the machines saw that they'd send probably only a 100 or so squids to run out the Humans reserves.
I dont care what God-like Defense system you came up with.
The WHOLE point is that the Humans could _never_ defeat the machines in a war. They _needed_ neo. They were never ever supposed to have some sort of trump card.

Remember, The Humans at one point had superior technology, making Zion look like the stone age, they TRIED nuking the machines.. the machines sorta shrugged... and promptly stomped them into the ground.

Why does zion use bullets?
Cheap, Effecient, mass producable.

Why don't the APU's use Lightening?
Have you seen how SLOW the lightening shots worked?
The APU's were nailing about 10-15 squids a second in the movie,
Lightening only ever took down 1 every 5 seconds. (the gun has to recharge.)

Why are the APU's open topped?
Limited technology, and to provide a more human look for the film, this one was more "look" than practicality.

-e-

DariusOrleans wrote:

Best Reasons Why Mass EMP doesn't work: 1.) EMP's take larg amounts of recource, more than Zion has, thus its only on the ships so that they can survive.

This makes no sense.

DariusOrleans wrote:

2.) (main one here) The Machines have more squids than Zion has EMP's. I imagine it'd go something like this... EMP burst... machines fall.. run to get to next EMP... wait for machines EMP burst.. machines fall.. etc... Repeat until Humans are out of EMPs. If the machines saw that they'd send probably only a 100 or so squids to run out the Humans reserves.

I don't think you understand what the EMPs are.

DariusOrleans wrote:

Why does zion use bullets? Cheap, Effecient, mass producable. Why don't the APU's use Lightening? Have you seen how SLOW the lightening shots worked? The APU's were nailing about 10-15 squids a second in the movie, Lightening only ever took down 1 every 5 seconds. (the gun has to recharge.)

I said they should use the lightning guns because using machine guns is inconsistent with M1.

DariusOrleans wrote:

Why are the APU's open topped? Limited technology, and to provide a more human look for the film, this one was more "look" than practicality.

They didn't have enough technology to slap a metal plate over them? They could've had a window face-plate.

1.) EMP's take larg amounts of recource, more than Zion has, thus its only on the ships so that they can survive. ---->1. they are better off with less emp weaponry, than more ballistic weaponry

2.) (main one here) The Machines have more squids than Zion has EMP's.

I imagine it'd go something like this...

EMP burst... machines fall..
run to get to next EMP...
wait for machines
EMP burst.. machines fall..
etc..

Repeat until Humans are out of EMPs.
If the machines saw that they'd send probably only a 100 or so squids to run out the Humans reserves.
I dont care what God-like Defense system you came up with.
The WHOLE point is that the Humans could _never_ defeat the machines in a war. They _needed_ neo. They were never ever supposed to have some sort of trump card.

2. no ure wrong thats not it at all...i said fight off the machines with apus untill they amass...(we see in the movie that even the shitty apus can outgun them so u fight em off untill ure overrun than blamo the emp) back...
u go back to your next prepared perimeter and do the same thing...
back to the next...and so on (remember that 1 emp takes out thousands of squids as seen in the movie, so do u really think that machines can outnumber us with that odds?) i think NOT!

with what machines have (squids) they dont have much tactical options because squids are:

1. stupid and lame as hell they basically just fly around trying to scratch something with their limbs
2. dont fire but just have a limited melee attack
3. they are neither powerful not strong remember that they need to swarm even the crap apu before they can bring it down

so i cant see how they beat nato in the animatrix...(im just thinking about how many nuclear/ballistic/explosive/emp based missles would hit 01 if it had gone to war against the entire world)

but then again i saw what that human army consisted off...they were drug using idiots who wanted to rape and pillage and thats not nato at all...

Remember that EMP only damages electronic equipment that is actually functioning (like with switches turned to on). So why not have some 5 ships docked, 4 off and 1 on with the EMP ready, and take turns switching on and off. I admit that even like that it would be more than a miracle to have survived without NEO. Thoughts?

I have been away for a while, teaching kids keeps me busy (though i do use the matrix in my media lessons and have one class doing reviews of it this week). Good to see that my thread is still up and attracting discussion. Some very good ponts have been raised.

I`ve been giving a lot of thought to the issue of the ships, of late, trying to work out what kind of an effect upon the battle Bane's actions actually had. Should the fleet have been operational, what amount of the sentinel horde would have been destroyed? The Hammer certainly changed the dock battle for a considerable time and the implication is that the rest of the ships could really have evened the odds in the favour of Zion's defenders (especially if they hit the drilling teams).

The machines had attacked zion many times (or so the architect said), so it is quite possible that Bane's betrayal would actually have upset their calculations. After all, it would be the first time that the human fleet apparently kills itself (an event that could have confused the machines completely, due to its ill logic).

Certainly things to ponder.

I`m still in favour of limited range EMP bombs though. After all, if you can make a lightning gun, you sure as heck can make a lightning bomb that has a controllable blast radius. Perhaps even an EMP rocket. I`ve seen a lot of criticism of the `filling up the rockets with powder` scene and i agree that it is a poor illustration of Zion's might. They must have had mass production just to make so many bullets of a high enough quality to fire in those weapons. Rockets are much the same, so they really should have had more, with a bigger bang for their buck.

I would wager that Zion did indeed have EMP defences beyond the boundaries of the city. After all, they have held their own this far and that cannot have been done via turrets alone. They must have had a sustainable way of beating the machines back to a stalemate within the tunnels. The machines knew where zion was, well enough, in fact, to point a drill at the right part. The only reason i can think of for the drills to be put into use would be if there was some sort of EMP perimeter that was being bypassed by that attack.

It is possible, as in the book 1984, that the machines were being fooled by their own leaders into waging a war in an innefective manner as a means of social control and keeping them in their place, on rationing and so on. This would explain their poor strategy and constant failure to win the war.

It would seem that both sides had tactics that were equally faulty and that points to a deeper problem, or deeper conspiracy, much of which is hinted at in other parts of the matrix.

Mr. Anderson wrote:

Remember that EMP only damages electronic equipment that is actually functioning (like with switches turned to on). So why not have some 5 ships docked, 4 off and 1 on with the EMP ready, and take turns switching on and off. I admit that even like that it would be more than a miracle to have survived without NEO. Thoughts?

equipment doesnt need to operate in order to be fried by emps...it can be turned off and get fried as well

Then how come the Neb survive it's own emp blast at the end of M1? They turned the ship off, then fired the EMP...

that's true Mr. Anderson. if an EMP fries everything (even what is turned off) then the ships would not/could not carry them. in M1 and M2 we saw several times the emp's were triggered on the ships to kill squidis. afterwards the ship turned back on again.

this means that they could have had a couple emp's as a last line of defence when they retreated into the cave/temple. at that point just very short range weapons were bieng used by zion.

Thank you Oli, I rest my case. Mirra, thoughts? comments?

Dunno, why dont u turn off your pc, exit your room and throw in an emp grenade...see what happens

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this means that they could have had a couple emp's as a last line of defence when they retreated into the cave/temple. at that point just very short range weapons were bieng used by zion.

yeah. that was soo STUPID.

i thought ZION was the place that they MADE the EMPS.

(i assumed in the 2nd film that they would have a factory of these things- boy was i dumb-)

they certainly didnt make them on the surface, or in the matrix.

so where else would they make them? on the ships? i dont think so.

besides where would they make the ships? -probably in zion.

so you mean to tell me that were supposed to swollow the fact that the "only weapon we have against the machines"-trinity- and they are going to "put all thier eggs in one basket" and NOT have a backup in zion somewhere?
ESPECAILLY when they have fought them for 100 years?

please.

ESPECAILLY when they "foreshadow" backups in reloaded. "yes. there is a backup."-the keymaker.


and were expected to say that the archetect is so smart that he can think of a simple thing like A BACKUP PLAN and the people of zion are just to dumb?

were expected to swallow this load of crap?
i guess so.

When trinity says "EMP is the only weapon we have left against the machines", she probably does not mean that no other weapons exist in the entire world. The Nebuchadnezzar doesnt seem to have a gunnery trained crew on hand as the Hammer does, so to them, EMP may be their best bet. It is also possible that the Nebuchadnezzar doesnt have gun turrets. Not every vessel may be armed the same way and some may not have EMP. Niobe comments that the Hammer "has a fat ass", which implies that some ships may well be more heavily armed than others and the Hammer is the only vessel we get to see in full gunnery mode.

In Essence, the Hammer is a warship and the Nebuchadnezzar is a scouting vessel, no doubt heavily trimmed down to allow for Morpheus' sneaky tactics. He, after all, is often breaking the rules and hunting for the one, probably without anyone's permission or knowledge.

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When trinity says "EMP is the only weapon we have left against the machines",

i agree with what you said, but i took it as the BEST weapon against the machines.

and it IS the best weapon and to NOT have one at ZION as a saftey measure is just plain dumb.

Fair enough. I`m not getting involved in the EMP debate, just wanted to comment on what Trinity said and how valid it might be. Though this is my thread, it's an old one...please can readers bear this in mind. I have no idea why it has been pushed back into activity...i doubt most folks posting in this have what they said fresh in their minds. I would advise starting any new lines of investigation in a new thread, rather than attaching them here.

i just want to end with saying that you put up some very well thought out posts and everything that ive seen you post ive seemed to agree with...

(or at least thought it was a very good point.)


good job!

Elvea wrote:

the people of Zion. Don't you kind of expect them to be coming at the squidies with big stones and sharpened sticks?

Zionites = Ewoks

John Mirra wrote:

i dont know why dont u get it? maybe i get it because i play so much starcraft ... dont camp in your city thats a bad idea...make a defensive perimeter on a good point but dont place all ur ships there... put some crappy apus forward (all apus are crappy) and kill em off until they amass then bang the emp...move back again do 1st...back again again and again... (form what i saw in revolutions that would work if its well planed) i posted this before somewhere

The Zion dudes did have a perimeter defense system, but the Machines pissed on that parade by doing the whole digging thing.

I think the commander's plan was pretty sound, and may have made the attack a whole lot harder for the machines, but nasty Bane put a stop to that.

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My only concern is with the bizzarre nature of Zion's defense systems. I mean, who made them, a six year old kid?

HA! Now you do have a point there, exposed APU cockpits, ect.
But I do think that the people of Zion hadn't expected that attack, although the councel members should have seen their weakness in defenseive technology. But, of course they didn't which lead to zion being ripped to peices.

[Off of subject] but, I think it is funny/annoying how smith speaks in slow.... clear ....sentences....like ....this.

Sorry if this was already mentioned but I am tired don't feel like reading all of the post, anyways I have a few statements.

1. Why arn't the APU got like a hoverpad or even a hover boost pack for big jumps. I know that takes alot of fuel and all but could be worth it.

2. I did see a post about Homing Missels, good thought.

3. With Homing Missels and those Gattling cannons/guns w/e the could have used that boost all jumped under the whole or at least to a degree and fire up in the hole which if not stopping all of the sentinals most of them.

4. Also, If they dug into the center of the earth or w/e why don't they use what they had use to dig there and dug a curving path into the back of the Robots drill and drop some sort of emp bomb ontopof it? Even explosives would work, yes i did think about how armored the drill was but still.

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1.) EMP's take larg amounts of recource, more than Zion has, thus its only on the ships so that they can survive.

It may be that the EMP is tied into the ships' power source, say some kind of nuclear reactor. For whatever reasons, these reactors are not in the dock. Remember, Lock or someone said the machines were bypassing the normal defenses, presumably the usual frontal attack, and were instead drilling in.

Perhaps the Zionites had other EMP fixed into reactors at the frontal approaches to Zion, which the machines were avoiding? And the reactors could not be moved in the time frame of the attack?

Just a thought, mainly to make up for one more plot hole in M3.

Silvercat wrote:

Why on earth, when you fight as your prime enemy nasty robots with lots of dextrous needle arms, do you make battle suits that have exposed human pilots?

Moblity is my thought. The APUs are heavy enough, they need to move in order to be fast. and packing on more metal then need be would slow them down in turning and shooting.
Remember when the Kid was running to open the hanger door? the movment of the machine was loose and it was -in a sense- fast for a heavy metal suit.

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Armour, my lads, armour...they managed it in the animatrix and it took time and effort to crank those armoured suits open,

what about generated heat/over heating. from being in the armour? i doubt they said "hey just incase it gets hot in there, lets add a mini air-condtionar!"
They did want protect, but i think it comes down to speed regardless of how expose the cockpit is.

Then theres the visual aspect. the monitors were used in ships and the dock. trying to equip all those suits with screens seems impossible....depending were exactly Zion got them in the first place.

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Any why, oh why, did they not install an EMP in strategic points of zion? Fair enough, it could only be used in last resort, but i`m sure they would see the advantage of being able to wipe out a big load of machines when they have only spit and rocks left in the weapons arsenal and no other alternative.

EMP knocks out EMP...
i don't think an electric burst can be contained before it effects other things.
that and the machines are attracted to it...unless you meant inside Zion not the exact point of entering.
plus EMP needs to be charged.

as for a way to reload the APU...
hmm. between the littered shells of the Squiddles, and width of the platform during battle.
i think running to reload is the best way. you can't drive across it or even stay on the dock with the amo...the Squids would destroy it and you.

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