»The suicide theory«

First time in a forum, please be merciful.

I read lots of posts in this page, think my theory is new, but tell if not.

The matrix was created by humans because of an incompatibility between human nature and progress.
Human brain was created by nature to help supervivence of the human specie.
In a specific moment in history, supervivence in not yet a problem, food for everyone, health for everybody, so the humankind rise the perfect (or final) state for a specie in nature world, and then?. Matrix was created to fool humans thinking they must fight for their lives, work, eat even procreate.
To understand how the matrix function it is necessary to understand how the human brain works. The human brain cannot be programmed, it functions under the chaos theory, any program you try to insert in it is reprogrammed inside by the supervivence principle.

So the matrix is an interface of communication between humans and periodically someone discover it, and understand that humans are no longer necessary, evolution is finished and began the suicide attempt. In a community with so fast interconnected minds this is a very big problem and the supervivence principle is reloaded.

I know my english is very bad, spanish is my mother language, but this is the first forum I found in internet with real interest for me.[/quote][/url][/i]

Welcome to the forum!

At first, I would like to ask what do you mean by the word supervivence? My native language is not english too and I haven't found that word in any dictionary ... didn't you meant survival?

However, if I understand it well, it is interesting theory and in fact something similar also crossed my mind.

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Matrix was created to fool humans thinking they must fight for their lives, work, eat even procreate.

Is it like you are saying that humans lacks motivation for living? That could be a good reason to create something like the matrix. Just look around, people could be quite happy, if the happiness would mean just food, health and this kind of all the material stuff - and if stable population would be reached, it wouldn't take a long time to achieve it (if the population woudn't exceed the natural limits). But humans are not this simple, they need more to be happy ... actually, also the suffering is necessary for happiness, because how would you realize that you are happy without knowing what it means to be unhappy?

What I like on your theory is that it proposes the matrix was actually created by humans! There could be many reasons to do so - for example a perfect means of controll, or a an escape to the ecological crisis (who would like to live in such deserted world?)

But final state of specie? ... I do not think that such state exist. There could be a final state of ecosystem - climax - when species are perfectly adapted to its environement and don't have to develop at all, but they are not commiting suicides ... i

Interesting post indeed, keep on going

Survival, of course.

Somekind of suffering?, that's exactly what I mean.

Of course, my theory is that matrix was created for that, to provide an illusion of dissatisfaction that maintained in its natural activity the human brain, otherwise, when life lacks the necessity of fight for survival, appear the suicidal impulse.

Anyway, my theory is greater than that, I think in matrix all humans are alive and living their own lives, but created some kind of political and financial system with rules that in many cases are managed by machines.

I'll try to explain. Survival in nature is a principle so strong, that drives a specie to achieve it even when in natural terms it is already a solved matter. So matrix is a kind of system that preserves the humakind of its negative impulses of destruction.

I don't think there are real life in matrix (no way to be freed), even zion is a part of it, something like the last line of defense, but in the meantime there are lots of people trying to get their chance in the only world existing, virtual world.

I know in our real world, many times we think that there is not satisfaction if there is not physical satisfaction, but the real one is mainly emotional, so a virtual world of emotions is possible, (like this one, internet).

The illusion of physical suffering is carefully controled in the matrix by machines to maintain an acceptable (social) balance for human minds.

About species perfectly adapted to its environement, as we know that's not possible, first you must eliminate something called mutation. Always will appear new species and the only way to reach the perfect balance -climax- is one specie with no need of the others, alone and forever.

Think for a while, in the next step of human evolution, What feature will assure their survival in front of us?. Muscular force?, no, existing guns, Intelligence?, no, existing guns.

Anyway thanks for your reply titek and sorry for the mistakes, I'm working hard in it.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you have a nice time here.... blah blah blah. I'm gonna get to the point.

You can ask just about anyone here and rest assured they will say I'm a real jackass when it comes to newbies and their theories. (And yes, TOLO, you can quote me on that; I was the same way with you.) But this is different. I like your thoughts. You aren't one of those who go "I just saw the trilogy, here's what I saw". You actually put some thougt into your theory and I think that you've got a real idea on what the Matrix is. Your analogies with the Matrix and survival is dead-on, IMO. Good job.

Interesting theory, Ikiman, but there is a lot that I am against. Let's go through it.

ikiman wrote:

Somekind of suffering?, that's exactly what I mean.

What? Suffering is not the same as survival. Try to use some dictionary, otherwise our understanding will be difficult.

As someone pointed out, many wars started just because of misunderstanding. The same words may have a quite different meanings and it depends also on context. It is much easier to use swords than to comprehend a difficult situation, another culture or any other complex problem.

ikiman wrote:

Of course, my theory is that matrix was created for that, to provide an illusion of dissatisfaction that maintained in its natural activity the human brain, otherwise, when life lacks the necessity of fight for survival, appear the suicidal impulse.

I don't think so. Where did you get to this suicidal theory? When the environment is complicated enough, you have to think a lot to survive or live well.

Of course, the fight for survival is a strong driving force, but it is not the only one that exist. Cooperation is quite important too but it have been neglected for a long time and even today the various kinds of darwinism (social, economical) are very popular. The end of M3 shows where the path of overemphasised competition leads - to the destruction of everything (symbolized by Smith) - and that cooperation is a journey to the better future, although it is much more complicated.

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Survival in nature is a principle so strong, that drives a specie to achieve it even when in natural terms it is already a solved matter.

But it is NOT the ONLY principle. Nothing is solved once for all, because the systems are open. World is changing. "The change always is", as Oracle adequately put it.

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So matrix is a kind of system that preserves the humakind of its negative impulses of destruction.

It could be, but it is necessary to distinguish between destruction that destroys the obstacles of a progress of life (if it could be said in this way) and destruction for its own sake. Of course, it is difficult to do so but there is a great difference.

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I don't think there are real life in matrix (no way to be freed), even zion is a part of it, something like the last line of defense, but in the meantime there are lots of people trying to get their chance in the only world existing, virtual world.

Yes, if the natural world was replaced by the artificial matrix, people have to live there. They are used to that and there is probably not enough resources to get everyone freed.

The universe of the Matrix movies could be seen as an extreme extension of trends that could be observed in our culture - and one of these trend is a replacement of natural environments by constructed ones

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I know in our real world, many times we think that there is not satisfaction if there is not physical satisfaction, but the real one is mainly emotional, so a virtual world of emotions is possible, (like this one, internet).

No! That's the god damn effect of thinking in terms of Cartesian division between matter and mind. It goes through the whole matrix too but it is not a viable path. There body cannot live without mind and vice versa - there is only one organism.

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About species perfectly adapted to its environement, as we know that's not possible, first you must eliminate something called mutation. Always will appear new species and the only way to reach the perfect balance -climax- is one specie with no need of the others, alone and forever.

Again, no!
I know, balance and adaptation is never complete but the climax is a dynamic state of ecosystem. Ecosystem consist of many species that are mutually dependent (animals cannot live without plants, plants are pollinated by insects and its seeds spread through the excrements of animals, bacteria live within the stomach of animals ...).

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Think for a while, in the next step of human evolution, What feature will assure their survival in front of us?. Muscular force?, no, existing guns, Intelligence?, no, existing guns.

So, you mean survival of humans could be reached by accumulation and use of weapons? Come on, there have to be someone who produce the things the guy with a gun want to take.

I think that the survival and well being of people could be reached by intelligence and empathy concerning whats going on in our surrounding. Understanding and peace is the way, not war. War is just a best way to keep the people under controll and eventually in a slavery.

titek wrote:

Welcome to the forum! At first, I would like to ask what do you mean by the word supervivence? My native language is not english too and I haven't found that word in any dictionary ... didn't you meant survival? However, if I understand it well, it is interesting theory and in fact something similar also crossed my mind. Quote: Matrix was created to fool humans thinking they must fight for their lives, work, eat even procreate. Is it like you are saying that humans lacks motivation for living? That could be a good reason to create something like the matrix. Just look around, people could be quite happy, if the happiness would mean just food, health and this kind of all the material stuff - and if stable population would be reached, it wouldn't take a long time to achieve it (if the population woudn't exceed the natural limits). But humans are not this simple, they need more to be happy ... actually, also the suffering is necessary for happiness, because how would you realize that you are happy without knowing what it means to be unhappy? What I like on your theory is that it proposes the matrix was actually created by humans! There could be many reasons to do so - for example a perfect means of controll, or a an escape to the ecological crisis (who would like to live in such deserted world?) But final state of specie? ... I do not think that such state exist. There could be a final state of ecosystem - climax - when species are perfectly adapted to its environement and don't have to develop at all, but they are not commiting suicides ... i Interesting post indeed, keep on going

Matrix was created because the humans "torched" the skies with bombs, because humans understood that machines needed sunlight to survive. With sunlight gone, the only other source that would allow machines to take energy from is the human body, since human bodies transmit BTU's (British Thermal Units), a measure of the quantity of heat, approximately equal to 1,055 joules, or 252 gram calories. They started creating humans to be used as batteries. In turn, machines survival is not complete without humans. "It seems fate is not complete without a sense of irony"...Morpheus

titek, not me but you said "also the suffering is necessary for happiness", so seems you think happines is a natural objective, not a cultural one, a way to fake and control minds.

For me suffering is the need to solve a problem, the need of love, pay credits or buy a new Apple G5 without money.

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I don't think so. Where did you get to this suicidal theory? When the environment is complicated enough, you have to think a lot to survive or live well.

Right, for an "environment complicated enough", but If not, like in the first matrix?.

The suicidal theory is mine, is the understanding that nature has completed a cycle. It has created a creature that can control its environment, control the other creatures and use it at will, and can control the next step in evolution, at least, at earth level.

With this kind of creature you can do nothing but destroy it or nature lacks of sense. It happened to dinosaurs.

On the other hand, in a world without homo sapiens, darwinism works very well, Why we are so different as species? and Why we are not forced to fulfill the norm?.

To solve problems, as you pointed, there are only two ways cooperation or war, or do you know anyone else, well, Maybe segregation?.

Its very human to think things can go better, the world can be a better world, to think this is a natural purpose, a balanced ecosystem is possible, but the general law is war and destruction, without limits. We did it in the past and it only stops when we understood total destruction was possible. Why energy in the matrix is not supplied by a nuclear power station?. Maybe machines are plants?.

Ok, let's go with cooperation, respect, understandig of the others (What others?, there is only one homo sapiens sapiens), happines, no illness, no discrimination, no war, one terabyte internet for all... first matrix.

I'm not saying suicide is the only choice, but matrix movies are talking about it. Try to build a perfect world and you'll be in an impasse. No, i'm not talking about my matrix, but Wachowski's matrix.

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No! That's the god damn effect of thinking in terms of Cartesian division between matter and mind. It goes through the whole matrix too but it is not a viable path. There body cannot live without mind and vice versa - there is only one organism.

Of course, not human mind resides only in the brain, but... this is another story.

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Again, no! I know, balance and adaptation is never complete but the climax is a dynamic state of ecosystem. Ecosystem consist of many species that are mutually dependent (animals cannot live without plants, plants are pollinated by insects and its seeds spread through the excrements of animals, bacteria live within the stomach of animals ...).

We are killing every day thousands of species, we only need someone to fix the others make to us, diseases.
What is the minimum number of species needed for our survival?, How many species need an eskimo in the north pole?. How many in the International Space Station?.

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So, you mean survival of humans could be reached by accumulation and use of weapons? Come on, there have to be someone who produce the things the guy with a gun want to take.

No, I´m talking about next step in human species evolution. As new mutation with advantages reaches the ecosystem it enters in competition with the previous one (think of it as an alien or something like that if you prefer). As soon as it is detected (as a menace for "humankind"), well, you and me know what will be our answer, fear and guns. The homo sapiens is not going to allow to be replaced by a superior species.
Maybe that kind of new humans appeared in the past, and we killed them. Maybe they are now between us, new mutations, and How do you think they are behaving not to seem a threat for us? What is the main characteristic they must have to do that?. It must be the great pretender, so we'll never know is there, and ... they also never know if there is more than one.
They will live always in their lie.
End of evolution.
No way.
Suicide.

Umair, the idea to use human beings as batteries seems to me a little infantile, could be used cows or if you prefer an altered version of humans with great brains but limited thinking or permanently drugged. There are many forms to obtain more efficient batteries without psychological problems.

Even so a problem subsists, What machines are looking for?, What is the reason of his own existence?.

That's why I think is not a machine matter but a human one.

Anyway thankyou for your interest.

[quote="Umair"]

titek wrote:

Matrix was created because the humans "torched" the skies with bombs, because humans understood that machines needed sunlight to survive. With sunlight gone, the only other source that would allow machines to take energy from is the human body, since human bodies transmit BTU's (British Thermal Units), a measure of the quantity of heat, approximately equal to 1,055 joules, or 252 gram calories. They started creating humans to be used as batteries. In turn, machines survival is not complete without humans. "It seems fate is not complete without a sense of irony"...Morpheus

I don't think Matrix was created for only a source of energy. Then why don't machines build a tower of solar panel high enough to penetrate the black sky?

I think the primary purpose of Matrix is to control of humans. Energy is the secondary purpose I think.

ikiman wrote:

Umair, the idea to use human beings as batteries seems to me a little infantile, could be used cows or if you prefer an altered version of humans with great brains but limited thinking or permanently drugged. There are many forms to obtain more efficient batteries without psychological problems. Even so a problem subsists, What machines are looking for?, What is the reason of his own existence?. That's why I think is not a machine matter but a human one. Anyway thankyou for your interest.

I totally agree with you Ikiman. The Matrix is not an issue of energy. They could have found a variety of energy sources to maintain their existence.

But then this comes up to my mind that why didn't they exterminate the human race?

I think they wanted revenge for the torture and suffering they had to bear for years. Banished from their former masters' land, they have built a city in the middle of the dessert although that didn't solve the problem and etc. Matrix was built.

Machines and humans have one thing in common; emotions. We call emotions "emotions" and they call them connection that the word implies. It is all the same thing but the explanations are different you see.

Ikiman, I see that we have quite different views of the world around us... and that is probably the reason why we cannot agree on so many issues.

It seems to me that you see the world and especially human evolution only in the terms of competition and struggle ... and I want to convince you that this is just a half of the story, that there is also another way of development (or evolution).

You were talking about (human) creature that is able to control its environment and other creatures and its own evolution. I don't think this could ever happen, and in fact, if it will, that would be a grim future. Even today, when humans seems to dominate and control nature (=environment), this belief is flawed. Just look the depletion of natural resources, destruction of natural habitats, diminishing number of species, severe weather events, pollution and most of humankind kind living in terrible conditions! That's not the control of environment, that is the ever growing destruction of environment. It is sound with the philosophy of fear: destroy all that you don't know and which is hard to understand ... that is not a viable way of life, that is the path of death, a path that agent Smith has shown to us in matrix and that leads to the total destruction.

I see the war as fearful solution of deeper problems - a problems that we don't want to tackle - and competition leading to the destruction of the others is the same side of a coin. It is simple but WRONG solution of problems. In fact, it is not a solution at all, with the understanding of the war as a symptom of deeper problems (cultural differences, moral attitudes, misunderstanding, isolation, ...), elimination of the enemy usually does not solve the problem - it is just elimination of the symptom, not the disease - and therefore the couse of the problem is still there - within us and within the system we live in (within the arrangement of our life).

I think that for people, there exist only one enemy - and that dwells within us - and we have to learn how to deal with it, with our dark side, because we cannot beat it - it would be a suicide. Suicide, similarly to the war, is just another form of escaping from a problem and not solving it.

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We are killing every day thousands of species, we only need someone to fix the others make to us, diseases. What is the minimum number of species needed for our survival?, How many species need an eskimo in the north pole?. How many in the International Space Station?.

The variety of species is necessary for survival of life due to the changing environment, because when the change of the environment occurs, it could kill the most widespread species (those that were best adapted and therefore widespread) and the minor ones, best adapted to another set of conditions, may replace them. That was the case of dinosaurs, which were cold-blooded animals, and the occurence of long-term cold weather probably killed them. Mammal, on the other side, creates the necessary body heat for themselves and that was a decisive factor - they were better adapted to the cold winter and therefore they survived and spread afterwhile into the hot climates too, where was a space for them, because dinosaurs were death.

This is why biodiversity is necessary - for the survival of live.

The cultural diversity is, on the other hand, necessary for the survival of humankind. Culture is based on the relation of people to the environment and various cultures were adapted to various climates and use of various material and resources. The current more and more unified global culture needs a LOT of resources of different kinds: energy (oil, coal, wood), metals, space ... and some of them are near the depletion. Just imagine what happens when the oil becomes scarce: How would the milions of city people get their food? There are plenty of books concerning this topic (ranging from sci-fi to the serious scenarios of future development). Imagine what happens when all the local cultures would be replaced by a consume society, living in the cities and facing a dramatical change of environment, depletion of resources, something like that ... like scorching the sky ... and there is a chance for only a minority of humankind to survive in some kind of matrix, others would be death. Only those dependent on machines (and skilful enough) could survive in completely nature-free environment. There is no other way, only death. Then the machines becomes the living environment of people - machines would be a new nature - and once again, our relation to the environment becomes apparent, our relation to the machines this time. They can't be destroyed because they became the living environment and there is no way out, people cannot live in a desert or in interstellar space.

So, machines in the matrix are the synonym for a nature: we need to live in some kind of harmony with them (which is shown in conclusion of M3) and it is even more urgent with our current environment - with the nature. Nature cannot directly speak to us, therefore we have to listen and see its behaviour carefully, because the death of nature is the death of people too, at least this time. All the attempts of living in artifial environment in sustainable way failed so far; orbital stations are not possible without the support of thousands of technicians down on Earth and even then they have quite limited life-time.

Maybe it was too long this time but I hope I explained my world views well. I know that only few people will agree or even read it to the end. This was another grim picture of our reality but I am optimistic, it is not that bad today ... but it could be if we cannot change ourselves at least a bit. Change always is and change is necessary - it is the basic characteristic of life.

Rex_Regis wrote:

Machines and humans have one thing in common; emotions. We call emotions "emotions" and they call them connection that the word implies. It is all the same thing but the explanations are different you see.

What do you mean here by "emotion"?

As far as I understand it, that sentence of Rama-Kandra point to the facts that lies behind the words: that not the emotions (inner feelings or states of mind) are important in love, but the relation and behaviour to other people is the thing that matters. This is the connection the word "love" implies.

It is not a feeling (or emotion), it is a relation, it is a way of life that has its heard (in the sence of Carlos Castaneda).

ikiman wrote:

Umair, the idea to use human beings as batteries seems to me a little infantile, could be used cows or if you prefer an altered version of humans with great brains but limited thinking or permanently drugged. There are many forms to obtain more efficient batteries without psychological problems. Even so a problem subsists, What machines are looking for?, What is the reason of his own existence?. That's why I think is not a machine matter but a human one. Anyway thankyou for your interest.

IKI, I was merely referring to what was said in the movie. Off course, just about any living organism could be used as a "battery". Maybe the machines chose humans as batteries because humans are the ones who could no longer co-exist with the machines.