»Neo did not become a Program and Merv was never a One.«

The_Necromancer wrote:

Inevitability wrote: Oracle: he's being held prisoner by a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us; he's called the Merovingian Merovingian: And it so happens there is something I want. Something I've wanted ever since I first came here. All this means is that The Merovingian is currently a program: the theory is that he was originally human. The idea is that he was The One, a human (quite possibly the very first of the "Ones"). Then his body eventually died, but his mind was transcribed into code to become a program. Remember, if he was the First One, he would be centuries old, and thus confirm the Oracle's statement that "He's one of the oldest of us". I think he's the First One just because he's not the One immediately before Neo---number 5---because he spoke of surviving Neo's predecessors. So this doesn't disprove the theory; it states that The Merovingian is a program during the events of Matrix 2&3. But he could once have been human. As Persephone stated, "he was once like you, Neo".

This is interesting. But you used the Oracle's quote "one of the oldest of us"...This sounds like you're saying the Oracle was also once a human, which I think we can totally reject.

The_Necromancer wrote:

Inevitability wrote: We’ll get back to Merv, but for now lets concentrate on Neo... Agent Brown: Only human. – Taken from M1’s bullet time scene on top of the building (the agent is referring to Neo). Agent Johnson: It's him. Agent Thompson: The anomaly Agent Jackson: Do we proceed? Agent Thompson: Yes, Agent Jackson: He is still Agent Johnson: Only human. Neo: I just haven't been able to sleep much. Hamann: That's a good sign. Neo: Of what? Hamann: That you are in fact, still human. Merovingian: Handle us? You'll handle us? You know, your predecessors had much more respect...okay you have some skill. Kill him...You see, he is just a man... Architect: You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses She is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion Human, Human, Human, Man, Human, human, Human. Also did a search for 'Program' in relation to Neo, sorry found nothing. Think before you post. The theory that Neo is and always has been a program is probably false. But the other theory is that at the end of Matrix Revolutions Neo's body dies, but his mind becomes coded into the Matrix as a program. Thus, Neo survives in the Matrix-world, his mind freed from his body. He is human during the movies, but by the end he may have survived as a program. The Oracle said she "hoped to see Neo again", implying that he could come back.

Okay, that is possible. Ironically, though, you missed the one point from Inevitability's post that really could have clinched your argument:

Inevitability wrote:

... Agent Johnson: It's him. Agent Thompson: The anomaly Agent Jackson: Do we proceed? Agent Thompson: Yes, Agent Jackson: He is still Agent Johnson: Only human. Neo: I just haven't been able to sleep much. Hamann: That's a good sign. Neo: Of what? Hamann: That you are in fact, still human. ... Architect: You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. ...

still, still, remain. Yes, I know, "irrevocably."

Inevitability wrote:

The Architect mentions Neo’s consciousness has been altered by the process he has undergone. He then not only identifies that Neo Remains Human but also defines the manner in which he remains: Irrevocably: Incapable of being recalled or revoked; unchangeable; irreversible; unalterable; as, an irrevocable promise or decree; irrevocable fate I think the Arc was very well spoken and wouldn’t have used such a word if it were not what he meant. He also deduces Neo’s responses are from his humanness. So, if Irrevocably means it cannot be undone, then even if we imagine Neo became a program as well as remaining human (which of course there’s no reference to), we would also have to say that Merv whilst a program, also remains human from being a One once... and how old is he? ...I don’t think so!

I quite agree; Neo cannot become a program and remain human simultaneously. Not even the "Neo=Jesus" theory can support this, with its "both God and Man" argument; there just isn't anything in the movies which suggests this possibility, and if it's not in the movies, I don't think we can accept it. Do you agree? Let's continue:

The_Necromancer wrote:

Inevitability wrote: In any case it is mentioned that he came to the Matrix. "The Merovingian came to the Matrix" could refer to several things: since he came back no longer as a One but as "The Merovingian", the rogue program information dealer. Also, Neo as The One would be different from The Merovingian as The One: The Architect said that Neo was the first One to be in love (with Trinity). The Merovingian's Trinity-figure was probably Persephone, but he doesn't "love" her, he cheats on her all the time. Maybe love is what keeps Neo human, even as a program, while The Merovingian doesn't really love so he's more program-like.

Wait... I thought you said several things. You only mentioned one thing in support of your argument. The other two things have essentially nothing to do with Merv, but deal with Neo particularly. First, (last,) if love is the humanizing factor, then Rama-Kandra (at least, and therefore probably Kamala and Sati as well) must also be human, by your argument.

Second, the Architect did not say that "Neo was the first One to be in love." He said that:
"Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication - a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific - vis a vis love."
All this means is that Neo's experience of Love is more specific (to Trinity) than his predecessors, who experienced Love as an "attachment to the rest of your species."

The other 5 Ones chose the Right door, which restarted the whole cycle. This is essentially the "death and rebirth" motive of countless myths; the idea is that through a succession of incarnations, the psyche (or soul or whatever you want to call it) learns lessons that will allow it to come to enlightenment/Gnosis/nirvana (again, whatever you want to call it) and "pass out of the weary sorrowful circle of life" (Orphism) and end the cycle of death and rebirth. Neo chooses the Left door, thus ending the cycle.

The fact that he does this out of Love for Trinity is most certainly significant. But that's a tangent we don't need to pursue right now.

I find it curious that the Architect says, "Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication...." Why would he say that? As Inevitability pointed out, the Architect most likely knew what he was saying. Can the machines "design" humans? Perhaps they can program their brains while still in the fields? But no, this can't be, because if that were true, there would be no need for the prophecy and choice system, because humans could just be programmed to accept the matrix from the start. He says "Your five predecsessors" - the One in general - was based, by design, on the affirmation of the attachment (Love). To me, this says that the anomaly, the sum of the remainder of the equation, must be designed this way for the prophecy system to work. Not necessarily Neo.

But it does beg the question: How is the One made? I mean, how does the "sum of the remainder of the equation" come to exist in a human in the matrix?

If the Merovingian actually was originally human (a fascinating idea, I admit) then something similar must have happened to him, yes? He would have chosen the Right door, because the matrix still exists, yes? After that, he would (according to your theory) have to have "become a program" and exiled himself to the matrix with Persephone ("...when we first came here...."). But how could he have become a program?

Neo, according to your argument, became a program at the end of Revolutions. This, you said, happens when his body dies in the real world, so that "his mind becomes coded into the matrix as a program." Do you mean to say that the Merovingian, as the first One, died and yet lived in a similar fashion? I must say, I am extremely curious to see how you worked that one out!

I can see the possibility of the theory. Perhaps: Merv (One#1) chooses the Right door, which, as we know, results in him returning "to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion." Then whatever part of Merv's mind that's left (the code, the prime program?) decides not to die with his body, but to remain in the matrix, or rather, return to it, where he carries on his last function, selecting individuals to be "saved," only now he does it with programs.

The "fundamental flaw" in this, I can also see. It's great if Merv can do this, but it does not explain how Persephone does it (if we accept that Merv>Neo=Pers>Trin). Perhaps Persephone is the first one Merv saves. But that means that Persephone must ALSO have changed from human to program! Trinity dies; there's no doubt that she is gone ("irrevocably") when Neo at last reaches the Source. I don't think Neo, as powerful as he is, could have changed that. And, for Persephone to become a program, something similar (to the body-mind/death-life theory as you defined it) must have happened to her, and there is simply NO evidence that she was ever human.

By your argument, Persephone is attached to Merv in just the same fashion as Trinity is to Neo. So, if Persephone was never human, then, clearly, neither was Merv.

That's not to say that the first "One" to free the 23 humans to build Zion could not have been a program; Morpheus only knows of the last "emergence of the integral anomaly," so the "man born inside" of whom he speaks may merely have been One #5!

This is getting too long; I apologize!

oops, sorry! I hit the Quote button instesd of edit. Please delete this . tahnks

is it possible that Neo was the only human left after the sky was scorched and all others were "cloned" from him? He was the original "one" that the machines copied.

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The Architect said: 'The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the CODE you carry, reinserting the prime PROGRAM. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion.'


The Architect said: 'Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.'

abigail wrote:

is it possible that Neo was the only human left after the sky was scorched and all others were "cloned" from him? He was the original "one" that the machines copied.

Possible, I suppose, but not likely. From a genetic standpoint, it would take longer (a LOT longer, with a lot more complications) for humanity to evolve diversity from just one genetic source; and even then, evolving diversity almost never happens the same way twice. If all humans in Zion and the Matrix were descended from a single genetic source, as you're suggesting, I would expect some very strange mutations. The machines would have needed quite a bit of power (energy and computing power) to guide the further evolution of humanity from a single source without allowing such mutations.