»God of Machines ~ The Source«

Few things came to my mind while reading the thread on sentinels. I think it is better to make it its own thread.


It seems that there is whole ECOSYSTEM of machines within Machine city and sentinels are just another specie.

Take the name in script: Deus Ex Machina. Isn't it a God of Machines instead?

Another cool sentence: A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines. Isn't this consciousness the Machine God? Similarly to the human God, he created the Machine world, with all the species and environment ... and this world is situated within the real world, runs on real hardware and is connected ... by the golden code!

Being the creator God, he is the SOURCE of the whole Machine world, source being the DNA of machines - the code on which the machines are built.

Because Deus Ex Machina, the Machine God, is a God for machines, they obey to his commands - live in harmony with the God. The Machine World is a machine paradise. The Machines (programms) that did not obeyed their God, they were banned (exiled) from this paradise to another world that was already inhabited by humans and that world was Matrix. Are Merovingian and Persefone Adam and Eve of this world?

Neo, the One, is the son of the Machine God, but the only thing that connects him to his father is the code of the anomaly that also gives him his special abilities. Besides this he is still human. Neo is thus both: human and son of God. He is the mediator of change and through him comes the God (the source) at the end of Revolution into the matrix. That is the impuls that came through the plug into Neo's body and further into the matrix - the source in golden code. It can be seen in the initial sequence of Revolution: the burst of golden code into the structure of green matrix code. God came to the matrix (the Earth for Machines) and connected this world with Machine world - with paradise. And this connection changed both worlds.

What do you think about this theory? It is not thought to the end, I know, but it attempts to put together at least some thought-threads.

Fabulous thinking indeed. I agree with it. Helps prove that Deus is indeed the Source! Ties in brilliantly.

Also, we again see 2 systems that work together governing the nature of the universe. The machine God and our human God (or gods).

I still think that Merv and Persephone are pure programs and were never machines from the real world. But thats all arguable.

Neo is the son of God. The son of the Source! Excellent. This makes him, as I've said before, half program and half human- half divine and half mortal.

Brilliant idea titek!

Now what about smith?

he is the opposite of neo

so if neo is son of god.... SMITH IS SON OF DEVIL? *Faints*

Thats going soo indepth that we lose track and confuse ourselves. Smith doesn't come into the picture here. The presence of Smith is more of a Buddhist/Taoist quality here than a Christian one.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

Also, we again see 2 systems that work together governing the nature of the universe. The machine God and our human God (or gods).

Continuing on this: Machine God gives purpose to machines/programms, while human God gives meaning to human life and it is expressed in love.

The interesting thing in this context is Sati - although she is a programm, it seems her meaning is defined by the human God. Her parents are blessed by both Gods because on hand they have a purpose within the Machine world (given by the Source) and on the other hand their love symbolizes the understanding to the human God.

The idea is that the two worlds: Machine world, created by the Source, and real world, created by human God, have one world in between and that is the matrix. That is the place where people are able to meet and understand machines (programms). It is the place where both systems (human -- DNA based -- and machine -- source based) interfere. At the beginning of the story, machine system predominates and the human one is oppressed. Before the Second Rennaisance, the relation was exactly the opposite. And at the end of revolution, it seems to be balanced: people are free but they may still choose to live within matrix, especially if they wouldn't be familliar with the desert of the real. I think it is better that total separation and independece of both worlds.

How about Smith?
I think you have a good point, Akshat. Some concepts explains one part, while others are good for understanding of another. Maybe it is foolish to search for ONE unified theory of everything. This analogy stems from the scientific view of the world. There is a plenty of theories, applicable to different kinds of problems, but the unified theory is still just a dream of some physicist ... If the theory looks all-comprehensive, it is probably simple or generalized and there emerge problems, when applied on certain details.

I don't see now, how Smith fits into this concept. I don't think he is a son of devil (Do devils have any sons? I haven't heard about them so far). Smith can be a bad consciousness of the One - to show how bad could Neo become, if he would have choosen to, or if he went astray from his path. He may be a symbol of ignorance or a corrupted version of the One. At least in christianity, devil isn't really an opposite of the God. He used to be the archangel that went astray of his purpose.

Look at Tolkien's mythology, Morgoth there is just one of the fallen Ainur. The creator of the Middleearth is a single consciousness - Illúvatar. And I think in this case it is a good analogy. Tolkien was of a christian belief.

Another thing: I didn't want to say that Deus IS the source. I think the head-like thing we saw was just a representation of the God. Like a burning bush or such thing. Or, even better, a collective consciousness of several leading AIs -- some kind of priests of the Machine God that interprets his will at best.

We can, of course, discuss the difference between the entity and its representation ... Maybe there are no entities, only representations ... and then it gets really weird.

So, I would say that Deus is representaion of the Source but not the source itself, if you see the difference.

titek wrote:

Take the name in script: Deus Ex Machina. Isn't it a God of Machines instead?

Dangit, NO! I thought we'd been over this.... Deus ex Machina does not mean 'God of the machines' nor 'God for the machines.' It means 'God FROM the machine,' to wit:

1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
   
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
   
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

I know, .... I know what deus ex machina means and that's why I put there the ~ sign instead of =.

What I wanted to say was that the name may point at the Machine God and that the Source may be with machines in the same relation as is God with people. People can't talk directly to the God and the same it is with machines and the Machine God.

annaerullo wrote:

Deus ex Machina is probably not the mainframe; if anything, it's a shell, or an avatar for the singular consciousness. To equate it so simply with the Source, and the singular consciousness, I think, is not enough. It is a far more complex relationship, I feel.

I agree on this.

But the Source ... I don't think it is simply the machine mainframe. I know, Oracle said that, but her way of speaking ... she talked about it in relation to the function of the one. At that time, Neo didn't know anything about the Machine city and the true function of Zion ...

Perennial philosophy, what's that? ... Much to learn, I still have -- nicely put

Cool to see how Neo can be the redemption for both Humans and Machines simultaeneously.

The idea of the golden explosion in the beginning of M3 does give the impression of a birth of something new, like a "mini big-bang". (Isn't the big-bang sometimes described as an "explosion" of a singularity?) When considering the golden explosion in connection with what happened to Neo while he lied there in front of Deus Ex Machina, it makes me think of Gandalf when he lied in the underground, and all of the sudden a surge of life awakened him from his "sleep"! Though to be fair Neo doesn't seem to physically wake up, ... but then how did Gandalf get back to earth so quickly? (I have only seen the films).

AG: This could be a difficult question: But do you think the Machine God to be in some way "equivalent" to the God (gods) of the humans?

(equivalent in the sense 1+3 and 2+2 are equivalent)

***edit: I hadn't read the posts of the deus ex machina when I wrote this post. pls see my next post***


more thoughts along this line would be rewarding, since it's kinda has to do with the purpose of Neos "sacrifice", and thus with the conclusion of Revolutions, and actually of the whole triology!...

/z


p.s. Neo matrix-explained.com... from the telephone booth is fitting for today, that is, Ascension Day!

clas.ufl.edu... wrote:

The philosophia perennis or Perennial Philosophy affirms that a direct insight into the nature of Reality is a universally human possibility -- whether it be gained after practice of spiritual disciplines and study of scriptures or through a wholly unanticipated illuminating experience of union with God or the Ultimate. A result of such awareness is the confidence that we have devolved from a single Source and the process of spiritual development is completed and perfected in our return to that One.

It is about Neo, isn't it? That was a good idea annaerullo!

I just wanted to say, that for machines it can be taken more literally. The Source is the source-code. Programms are made of the source-code and without the source-code, they do not exist.

Neo being both -- human and son of Machine God -- is made of flesh (that would refer to his body and his human spiritual path) and of the anomalous code (and this one refer to the Source). At the end of revolution, both parts of him came to the end - returned to the One (his body died, the code was disseminated).

Talking about God and gods could be a little tricky because one could put more into the story per se than the story can bear, (if you know what I mean). But reformulating "God" as the Source, A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines, (the AI humans gave birth too?), is a fabulous way of getting around the "religious morality" and still keeping to the story.

About the question of "equivalence" between the humans' God and the machines' God: Maybe there is a connection between these two entities because of the connection between the humans and the origin of the Machines and the Source. If Humans embody the divine spark in themselves, and then the humans create AI, and this AI is truely conscious etc, then the Source could have been the "divine spark" among machines, (albeit a digital" spark?)


One more religious reflection: In Matriculated (Animatrix) we see how humans manipulate forth religious feelings in a sentinel in a matrix-like training program. Thus machines have religious faculties like humans, (but humans are not particularly more developed in this case, since they use religious manipulation only as a means). Maybe religious faculty (inner divine spark, what ever you call it) is an intergral part of intelligence, thus real AI and the Source has the evolutional capicity of spiritual growth. (I hope you know what I'm talking about?)

My thoughts feel "disemminated" at the moment ...

... But what I'm trying to get at is this: even if the Source comes from the Machines, the Machines still come from Man, and Man from the Divine Spark, and the divi....

(I saw a Matrix poll of how many believed/didn't believe in God (gods) and I was quite amazed on how many weren't believers but obviously really like the Matrix: I think that's really neat!)

/z

zynxamek wrote:

... But what I'm trying to get at is this: even if the Source comes from the Machines, the Machines still come from Man, and Man from the Divine Spark, and the divi....

That's it! The recurence ... like the fractals that repeat its pattern within itself ... infinitely.

Also the machines misused religion - in the controll of Zion (the people believed in prophecy but that was a means of controll, designed by Architect). But once again, when Neo came, he renewed the belief. He discovered all the misuses and false beliefs and prepared the way for a true religion. Like the Jesus Christ did. But Neo did it for both: for people and machines too.

Like Jesus brought the God's blessing to all the people (not only to the chosen poeple of Israel), Neo brings the blessing also to the machines. Widening the scope ... all the time. In cycles that are somehow similar, but not quite. That's why the Oracle at the end said that we may see Neo once again

titek wrote:

That was a good idea annaerullo!

Thanks but it's not mine; hence the term, 'perennial'! It's the foundation of the Mystery religions, or at least, it is thought to be.... None of the ancient, specific, secret teachings of these groups survives. The initiates of these groups took sacred oaths never to reveal them, and it would seem that they kept them. But the teachings can be divined from the myths they created, taught, and held dear....

...Even Christianity. The perennial philosophy is evident in many of the teachings of Paul, and in teachings of Christ. In this way, the 'good news' really is for everyone. It isn't until ALL achieve the enlightenment of gnosis that the true heaven on earth can come. That's why Christ taught to ALL and not just to the Jews... he didn't come to save the Jews, but ALL mankind. So in a way, they were right - he wasn't their Messiah, at least, not the one they were looking for. ...This leads to a discussion that is best left off this particular forum, so I think I'll leave off....

Anyway, I understand what you are saying, now, titek. thanks! Oh, and zynxamek, I'll PM you on the Gandalf thing you were wondering about.

i wanted to address an earlier question in this thread about smith...

Quote:

Now what about smith? he is the opposite of neo so if neo is son of god.... SMITH IS SON OF DEVIL? *Faints*

Quote:

Thats going soo indepth that we lose track and confuse ourselves. Smith doesn't come into the picture here. The presence of Smith is more of a Buddhist/Taoist quality here than a Christian one

relating him to christian symbolism i see smith as the anti-christ...a separate entity from the devil...we all see merv as the devil but smith is the anti-one, the anti-christ, the false prophet

That would make sense. Except I haven't heard of this anti-Christ fellow.

I agree with most of what you said Titek, except for the "special powers".

I don't think that the sentinels are different from the other AI, I am sure that they're just remotly controled bodies. The real minds of the machines are stored in the towers of the machine world. They just can jump from one machine to another, it is a modular society.

You notice that when a program creates another program (The Oracle making cookies e.g.), the creator can partially govern the created program. The higher you are in the hierarchy of the creation processn the most you have powers to command other programs. That's why the One has powers in reality.

The power that Neo has in the matrix, instead, comes from the anomaly created by all the humans who refuses the program.

Titek, I think you've explained it as well as it can be explained. I agree with your theory about Neo, D.E.M., etc. If you think about it, if Persophene and the Merovingian are Adam and Eve, then wouldn't Cain and Abel be their sons (which could be a credible theory since they live with them)? It sounds to me like you got it...

The ONE-der Man wrote:

Smith ... relating him to christian symbolism i see smith as the anti-christ...a separate entity from the devil...we all see merv as the devil but smith is the anti-one, the anti-christ, the false prophet

Could be.
If we have heard about Smith that:He is you. Your opposite, your negative, the result of the equation trying to balance itself out. then, while identifying Neo as a Christ-like figure, Smith is Anti-Neo - an Anti-Christ.

I also didn't heard much about the Anti-Christ probably because my view on christianity is rather distant ... but now I remember one cool book that dealt with this figure. It was written by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gainman and it is called Good Omens. Actually, the centrall character IS an antichrist but is portrayed in an ironic, modern and 'Pratchettish' way. However, the inspiration must have come from somewhere ...

To El Escogido:
After reading some recent threads on Merovingian, I tend to see him more like the devilish figure and pretty much in the way of Tolkien's Morgoth/Melkor (btw. this name also starts with M -- probably just a coincidence). It also makes more sence, if you consider what I have written in my second post here. Thanks to The ONE-der Man's clue!

Quote:

Smith can be a bad consciousness of the One - to show how bad could Neo become, if he would have choosen to, or if he went astray from his path. He may be a symbol of ignorance or a corrupted version of the One. At least in christianity, devil isn't really an opposite of the God. He used to be the archangel that went astray of his purpose.

In the way in which devil is not an opposite of the God, Merv is not an opposite of Neo. But Smith is.

True....I see your point.

Akshat Gupta wrote:

That would make sense. Except I haven't heard of this anti-Christ fellow.

Quote:

"Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son" (1 John 2:22); "And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God; and this is Antichrist" (1 John 4:3); "For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an Antichrist" (2 John 7

i believe the anti-christ i've heard of or understood was another person to come along like jesus, who can "perform miracles" and has great power...in to which people believe he is christ, instead of the one who has already come...the false prophet...please anyone who is knowledgable correct me if need be...

some of those verses above kinda pertain to smith maybe?

Quote:

who denies the Father, and the Son

sounds like when smith not only wants the end of neo but the end of the matrix, machine world etc...

Quote:

"And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God

sound like smith assimilating people? AND neo? anyway...anyone who really knows....help!

I'm afraid that I know less than I thought I did about the 'Antichrist.' The idea of one who will come before Christ's second coming (could it instead be 'ante-christ'?), who will sort of pretend to be Christ, and deceive 'if it were possible, the very elect,' is not present in the gospels, nor in Paul's letters. I had not remembered the letters attributed to John, not having read them very often. They seem to have been written around the same time as Paul's letters, which are among the oldest in the New Testament, but they sound to me like Anti-Gnostic letters, inserted in the canon because the Church fathers wanted to make sure that the gnostic ideas (which can be most appealing, and entirely rebellious to the controls set by the Church) were quenched. A few of the letters attributed to Paul are actually forgeries in this vein.

'The Beast' in the Book of Revelations is usually equated with antichrist, and the number of his name, 666. There is so much symbolism to wade through in this book, that most people have never figured out what it truly means, and if anyone actually has, they're either not telling, or no one's listening to them.

Antichrist also comes up as an idea in Michel de Nostradame's clairvoyant poetry. It is thought that Nostradamus predicted three such antichrists, great tyrants of the world, and that two of them, Napoleon Bonaparte and Adolf Hitler, have already come and gone. The third is referred to only once by name, as 'Mabus.' Nostradamus used anagrams and lots of other word tricks to eschew readers of his predictions, because he had a pretty good track record already of making true predictions, and the Inquisition was in full swing; he feared for his life, and rightly so. His prediction that names Hitler actually says 'Hister.'

'Mabus,' then, has been thought to mean possibly 'Saddam,' 'Abu Abbas' (a Palestinian leader), and 'Thurbo Majus' (the Romanized name for 'the infernal god of Hannibal,' which is a clue Nostradamus gave in another verse for the identity of the third antichrist). Personally, I don't discount the idea that if you flip 'Ma' upside down you see something that looks a bit like 'Wg' - rearrange them and add the rest of the letters, and you get 'gWbus.... Geo. W. Bush is my pick for tyrant #3.

Antichrist is also great fodder for horror movies, because people are already so afraid of burning in hell, and of the devil, thanks in no small part to the Church's fearmongering. The Omen series (awsome, though I missed part 4) and some others have used this idea of ultimate personification of evil to great effect.

Nietzsche also wrote a book called 'The Antichrist.' I haven't read it. Fatpie42 may have; he knows quite a lot about Nietzsche.

newadvent.org... is the Catholic view on the Antichrist, if you want.

I think esquilax.com... is my favourite, though!

I think you guys are laying too much on the symbolic thing, the Christ analogy is rather a reference to the gnostic theory, wich means that the Christ is not really a savior but rather a tool of an oppressing God.

It is impossible to have so many names related to legends and to make it coherent with the movie story. So, Cain and Abel are rather symbolic because they probably came from the first or second Matrix.

Apocryphe wrote:

I don't think that the sentinels are different from the other AI, I am sure that they're just remotly controled bodies. The real minds of the machines are stored in the towers of the machine world. They just can jump from one machine to another, it is a modular society.

So, are you saying that sentinels are AIs? I doubt about that, I just said that they have certain lesser inteligence to act on their own. They are remotely controlled/guided, but not completely. I think its like the AIs in Machine city (the towers there, as you have said) gave them the purpose and sentinels just follows that. I don't think the AI can really jump into such single purposed machine.
Trinity: A sentinel. A killing machine designed for one thing.
Dozer: Search and destroy.

Neo can't do that too. But he is able to destroy them, the communication between machines is somehow unified. Otherwise they couldn't cooperate.

Apocryphe wrote:

You notice that when a program creates another program (The Oracle making cookies e.g.), the creator can partially govern the created program. The higher you are in the hierarchy of the creation processn the most you have powers to command other programs. That's why the One has powers in reality. The power that Neo has in the matrix, instead, comes from the anomaly created by all the humans who refuses the program.

This is weird. It would imply that Neo created the sentinels. No, that's really strange.

Following this idea, you came to the question: who created the AI? Humans! Do the people have some power over the AI(s)? No, except, maybe, although I doubt about it, Neo. I think he can't hack the AI ... sentinels, that's something different - they are rather simple (but sophisticated) machines. Maybe a kind like sharks in the sea? They are dangerous, but not intelligent.

Apocryphe wrote:

I think you guys are laying too much on the symbolic thing, the Christ analogy is rather a reference to the gnostic theory, wich means that the Christ is not really a savior but rather a tool of an oppressing God.

Christ is not the tool of the God! He IS the God. Haven't you heard about the holy trinity?

I read my text again I have no idea how you could misinterpet me so much ?

I am saying that sentinels are not AI, they probably have some automated functions related to their activity but they're not intelligent in the sense that the word artificial intelligence implies.
Note that the sentinel that went through Neo had not been physically destroyed and yet it ceased to function when it tried to hack Neo's mind.

What Trinity or Dozer say about sentinels is irrelevant since their only contact with them is "EMP" or "hidding". They don't know anything about how the machine world works.

Neo, when he faced the machines, was still human as the Architect said it. So, no, he cannot jump from one body to another but he did the first step of it when he was blocked into the Mob Ave : his body was there while his mind (or rather a copy of it) was in the Mob Ave.

No, Neo didn't create the sentinels, you didn't read me or what ? The One (and not Neo, that's not the same, mind you) was created by the source wich implies that he's a higher authority in the hierarchy, even if he didn't create the sentinels, that's what the fractal is all about.

Yes, men created machines and they obeyed them and then went on revolutions just like Exiles did again the source. That's all what the movie is about, it explains that if an authority is abusing of his power, the system will rebel against it, didn't you get that yet?
The only way to prevent that Revolution is to balance the forces. Machines understood it beter than us since they're still in control there.

Christ is the tool of God according to the gnostic theories and that's what I am talking about, GNOSTIC damn it.