»matrix within a matrix? I think so.«

Hey kids, great forum you've got here. It's good to see such a free flowing exchange of ideas. And so few trolls! They're almost non-existant. Anyways...

I happened upon this forum a few days before Reloadeds DVD release and have been completely absorbed by it. After seeing M2 in the theater I was convinced there was a matrix within the matrix. It just made sense. I was thinking about the movie today and a thought came to my mind that may help explain the MWAM theory. In order for "people" in the "real world" to enter the matrix they must plug in, correct? Well, that in itself is revealing to me. Let me use an analogy to explain where I'm going with this. Say you go to your favorite dentists office and have a seat in his exam chair. The next thing you know someone takes a six inch steel spike and shoves it into the base of your skull. Now, can anyone tell me what the result of this would be? My point is, the very act of "plugging in" seems to point to the fact that a MWAM exists. It doesn't seem very viable to me for a human head to withstand repeated jabs by a six(i'm guessing here, does anyone have the exact dimensions of the brain plug??) inch spike. The plugs on the body are kinda fishy too. What's their purpose? Waste disposal? Energy extraction? Regardless, in order for these mechanisms to function there'd have to be a serious modification of the human body. The brain plug, for example, would need a socket, correct? I suppose this all supports the theory that Neo isn't exactly "just a man". But all the other "humans" would need these modfications as well. Shed some light here people! Am I just being too critical of the Brothers?

Also, something I was thinking about while watching M1. When Neo is pulled from the matrix he falls into some sort of tank or sewer or whatever and is hoisted from it by the Neb and it's crew. Can anyone explain how the Neb got this close to the fetus fields without being detected by the machines?? Seems to me they'd be right under their noses(or sniffers or sensors or whatever). Also, when neo is getting his shock therapy from Dozer Neo asks what's going on and Morpheus tells him that his "muscles have atrophied, we're rebuilding them". How have his muscles atrophied? No different than his eyes, Neo would have never used his muscles before either. Am I the only one confused by this scene??

So, through all this thought and discussion I have to share a fear of mine about the trilogy. There's an awful lot of mention of dreams and whatnot thoughout it all. I've been trying to understand(as we all have) where this plot could possibly lead, and I keep coming back to my own little theory about it all. Hence the fear...maybe the Brothers are just shitting us all along!? Maybe this all leads to some poor sap waking up from a dream or something like that? I know I know, it sure makes all of this seem like a sad waste of time, but really. There are too many contradictions and loopholes and what not. I really hate the thought of it, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone else considered this as a possibility??

Looking forward to your replies!

>Prying open my third eye<

Less of the 'kids' thingy we're not all kids on here you know - and this has been done to bloody death - MwM theory....Haven't you noticed???
matrix within a matrix? I DONT think so......

whomhead wrote:

In order for "people" in the "real world" to enter the matrix they must plug in, correct? Well, that in itself is revealing to me. Let me use an analogy to explain where I'm going with this. Say you go to your favorite dentists office and have a seat in his exam chair. The next thing you know someone takes a six inch steel spike and shoves it into the base of your skull. Now, can anyone tell me what the result of this would be? My point is, the very act of "plugging in" seems to point to the fact that a MWAM exists. It doesn't seem very viable to me for a human head to withstand repeated jabs by a six(i'm guessing here, does anyone have the exact dimensions of the brain plug??) inch spike.

Well, it also seems highly improbable that machines have crafted a world within computers. A world which stores enough data that it is free flowing.

It IS a movie. I think you are reading too much into the spike thing. It would be really boring if they were plugging a headphone jack into their head or wearing goggles over the eyes. The giant plug makes the viewer realize how big a deal this is, and how "deep" the matrix is implanted. It just gives a sense of scope and drama to the viewer. Nothing more, in my opinion.

Quote:

The plugs on the body are kinda fishy too. What's their purpose? Waste disposal? Energy extraction? Regardless, in order for these mechanisms to function there'd have to be a serious modification of the human body. The brain plug, for example, would need a socket, correct? I suppose this all supports the theory that Neo isn't exactly "just a man". But all the other "humans" would need these modfications as well. Shed some light here people! Am I just being too critical of the Brothers?

Yes, I think you are being overly critical. The plugs and stuff could all be done bio-mechanical, but it wouldn't lend itself to the "disparity" between machines and men. The metal and the man.

So, they have the garish looking metal plugs along their body. It is an unsettling and invasive thought... so, it works in the movie sense. We have to assume that technology has advanced to a point that mechanics can work within the human body. If you watch matrix I, you can see the infants with the plugs already in their body.

The things along the spine are along the central nervous system, and one could assume that they could extract energy, but also input certain data. Obviously it isn't critial to functioning inside the matrix, as they do not need them to "jack" in. The holes on his arms are probably for sustenance, sort of like a drip in the hospital.

Quote:

Also, something I was thinking about while watching M1. When Neo is pulled from the matrix he falls into some sort of tank or sewer or whatever and is hoisted from it by the Neb and it's crew. Can anyone explain how the Neb got this close to the fetus fields without being detected by the machines??

We don't really know where Neo was located. It was probably at their central power station, and as such would be similar to a nuclear power plant. The machines aren't worried about an assault, so they probably do not have sentries around it. Obviously the machine that watches over the "coppertops" didn't see an awakened human as a threat... it just flushed him.

Quote:

Also, when neo is getting his shock therapy from Dozer Neo asks what's going on and Morpheus tells him that his "muscles have atrophied, we're rebuilding them". How have his muscles atrophied? No different than his eyes, Neo would have never used his muscles before either. Am I the only one confused by this scene??

You answered your own question. His muscles have atrophied because he has never used them before. They are equivalent to being in a cast all his life. So, the shocks would be to tear the muscle fiber and help it start building them fresh. The real issue would be trying to teach Neo how to walk and talk...

Quote:

So, through all this thought and discussion I have to share a fear of mine about the trilogy. There's an awful lot of mention of dreams and whatnot thoughout it all. I've been trying to understand(as we all have) where this plot could possibly lead, and I keep coming back to my own little theory about it all. Hence the fear...maybe the Brothers are just shitting us all along!? Maybe this all leads to some poor sap waking up from a dream or something like that? I know I know, it sure makes all of this seem like a sad waste of time, but really. There are too many contradictions and loopholes and what not. I really hate the thought of it, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone else considered this as a possibility??

It is a possiblity, but the brothers have stated that they would NOT under any circumstances take an easy way out. The actors have also said that the brothers would never "trick" the audience. I think the answer is there, we just can't see it yet.

Kind of like part one... they told us the answers in the beginning of the movie... they told us how it was going to happen... but watching it happen was still a suprise, because we weren't sure if we believed.

The brothers have also said they will not use a Matrix-within-a-Matrix concept. They said it would be cheating the audience.

Sir Reef.

Looking forward to your replies!

>Prying open my third eye<[/quote]

whomhead wrote:

My point is, the very act of "plugging in" seems to point to the fact that a MWAM exists. It doesn't seem very viable to me for a human head to withstand repeated jabs by a six(i'm guessing here, does anyone have the exact dimensions of the brain plug??) inch spike.

ok. i'm just a kid. but here i go.
the matrix trilogy is science fiction. pretty much all science fiction (including the really good stuff) makes leaps in science and technology in order to have a story set in the future. yeah, i'm a jerk for stating the obvious. my real point is that in order to buy the "real world is really the real world" point of view, it's not that far of leap to imagine that a human body, engineered to accept the "spike" could indeed handle the spike. in order to believe that i have accept that somehow machines have figured out a way to do that. maybe you think the odds of that happening are less than the odds of the machines making layers of virtual worlds. thats cool. some of us disagree. i actually find the plug thing easier to believe that some magical ability we all posses inside of us called the "Force." but hey, it's science-fiction.

Quote:

But all the other "humans" would need these modfications as well. Shed some light here people! Am I just being too critical of the Brothers?

didn't the other humans freed from the matrix have plugs too? i'm confused by your confusion

Quote:

Also, when neo is getting his shock therapy from Dozer Neo asks what's going on and Morpheus tells him that his "muscles have atrophied, we're rebuilding them". How have his muscles atrophied? No different than his eyes, Neo would have never used his muscles before either. Am I the only one confused by this scene??

sorry, i'm not trying to be testy, but i'm again confused by your confusion. maybe you could elaborate. you ask how could his muscles have atrophied. here's the definition of atrophy: decrease in size or wasting away of a body part or tissue. his muscles have wasted away due to their lack of use. just like his eyes. the "rebuilding" Dozer must be talking about is a treatment to excersize them and cause them to grow and repair themselves. all of that makes sense to me.

Quote:

There are too many contradictions and loopholes and what not.

i hope you aren't referring to the "contradictions" you mentioned. honestly they don't seem valid.

whomhead wrote:

I LOVE THE RED SOX AND I HOPE THEY WIN GAME 7!!!!

i totally agree with you there. GO SOX!!!

ok. so i didn't refesh the post in time to see Sir Reef's eloquent reply. now i'm just a redundant fool.

except for the whole redsox thing tho
sorry

Didn't expect you guys to take the "kids" thing so seriously. I mean really, I'd find it pretty hard to believe a bunch of children were having discussions of this magnitude. Anyways...

Quote:

i actually find the plug thing easier to believe that some magical ability we all posses inside of us called the "Force." but hey, it's science-fiction.

I guess you and I are standing on opposite sides of the fence here. Myself, I find it harder to believe that our bodies could be modified to accept such mechanisms than to be able to achieve "magical abilities". Who says these abilities are magic?

Quote:

didn't the other humans freed from the matrix have plugs too? i'm confused by your confusion

they sure did. but part of the explanation of Neos power stems from the idea that he's part/all machine. What I meant with the "just a man" comment was it's much easier to accept a being that's part machine to have these modifications. "Normal humans" on the other hand, well, I've already gone over that.

Yeah, I understand the definition of atrophy. In the context that it's used in that conversation it sure sounds to me like they have atrophied, like they had been used but have been in a rest state for some time. Hence the usage of "rebuilding". How can they rebuild something that was never built?

Good luck to your Sox. I'm not a baseball man(Go Colts!), honestly I'd like to see the cubbies take it. I think they've put their time in!

Quote:

Well, it also seems highly improbable that machines have crafted a world within computers. A world which stores enough data that it is free flowing.

How improbable is this? If we look at the progression technology has taken it seems entirely possible to me. I mean, go back ten years and tell a guy he'll have a 2Ghz processor in his personal computer. Obviously we haven't made the leap to AI yet, but it's only a matter of time. Our defense contractors will see to it!

Quote:

I think you are reading too much into the spike thing.

You're all probably right about this. It's just hard to NOT read into everything with a movie like this. When was the last time a movie inspired so much thought and inspiration??

Quote:

The real issue would be trying to teach Neo how to walk and talk...

Wouldn't his mind already understand how to perform these functions??

>Prying open my third eye<

whomhead wrote:

Wouldn't his mind already understand how to perform these functions??

Not really sure if his mind would or would not really know how to do this.

See, as we grow older, our synapses form bridges and get set to allow us to do things we take for granted. But, NEO and anyone else being unplugged, would be like a baby. They wouldn't innately KNOW how to do these things.

Neo has never actually sent a signal to his legs. He sent a signal to his digital self-image to move. All the signals would stay resident in the head.

Thus, while Neo would innately understand the "concept" of walking and talking... he had never done these things. The synapses would never have formed. The first time he sent an impulse to his arm when he left the matrix would be the first time he ever sent an impulse.

Weird, eh?

But, again, I think it takes that "leap of faith" thing. You have to assume that he knows how to do it, even though he has never done it. I think it helps the narrative store to take the leap of faith rather than spending half an hour on the "Rocky" training sequence.

Sir Reef.

whomhead wrote:

explain the MWAM theory. In order for "people" in the "real world" to enter the matrix they must plug in, correct? ... It doesn't seem very viable to me for a human head to withstand repeated jabs by a six ... inch spike.

Now if THAT is your concern, then the "Humans blackened the sky for hundreds of years" idea would be even a better proof.

whomhead wrote:

When Neo is pulled from the matrix he falls into some sort of tank or sewer or whatever and is hoisted from it by the Neb and it's crew. Can anyone explain how the Neb got this close to the fetus fields without being detected by the machines??

It wasn't the Neb, it was a spiderlike cocoon machine.

Quote:

Obviously the machine that watches over the "coppertops" didn't see an awakened human as a threat... it just flushed him

I think that the Red Pill not only contained some software to find Neo's carrier signal, but also it was a (software)drug.
Remember, Neo freaks out, on their computers it shows Neo's heart stopping. The drug(voodoo zombie style) made Neo think he was dying/dead for a moment, and the machines thought he was dead. So that is why they flushed him. To go down into the sewer where the dead are dissolved into food for the living. The whole soylent "green" thing. Of course, his body functions restarted when the effects wore off. I'm sure it took the Zionites a while to get the timing down.

Ogami Itto wrote:

and the machines thought he was dead. So that is why they flushed him.

Which brings us back at

First read this quote from the Architect-

Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.


How is this proof that Zion isn't real?

let's break it down line by line-

"As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level."

The "choice" is to believe the matrix is real or not. Those that choose not to believe are just like Neo before Morpheus contacted him. People that sense something is wrong with the world.

"While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself."

Neo is the systemic anomaly. He is a result of the programming that gives the choice to accept the matrix or not. He is a representation of that disbelief, therefore it stands to reason that if he is empowered with the knowledge that the matrix is not real, he has the ability to rewrite it. The only way to control this, to keep it "in check" is to allow him to embrace this power, but confuse him by sending him to a different matrix where the choice is not offered. No one in Zion believes that Zion may be a matrix. They have not been given a choice to accept the program or not. It is more believable than the actual matrix, because, as explained earlier by the architect, humans have a predisposition to accept misery and unhappiness as real. We always doubt the great things as too good to be true- the reason the first matrix (the perfect version) was a faliure.

"Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster."

If those that choose not to accept the matrix (people that have been freed from the matrix) are a threat if left unchecked, how are they being "checked"? By allowing them to choose to leave the matrix and enter the "real world" they are not being kept in check. The only way they can be kept in check is by giving them a choice to leave the matrix and go somewhere else. This empowers there feeling of choice, ergo their feeling of freedom. Choice is freedom. But as we know from the merovingian, "choice is an illusion created by those with power". So the choice is to be a slave or to be free. But who is to say that the machines are really setting you free. It's just an illusion. The "Real World" is so harsh, so tough, so full of misery that we readily accept it as real.

Therefore the only way to control those who don't believe in the matrix is to trick them into transferring into a second matrix where the "fundamental flaw" is not present. Everyone who transfers into the second matrix utterly believes it to be real, therefore the choice problem is no longer present and the humans can be kept "in check".

Unless I am so wrong in my interpretation of the architects words, this is proof that Zion is a second matrix.

And for anyone that says "well if that's true, then the Zion matrix is more effective than the actual matrix, why not simply replace it with the zion matrix". The answer to that is simple. The problem is choice. Humans need to feel they a choice. By always having two matrices, the machines ensure that choice is always being given to all humans. the zion matrix is for those that have made their choice. they just don't realise that there choice is an illusion.

Any questions?

The choice offered at a subconscious level is how anyone offered the pills who chooses to stay in the matrix wakes up the next day not even remembering being offered a choice. If anything, it was all a dream.

Another flaw for the MWM is why create a system to control a 1% anomaly? Presumably it would be to be able to continue to use them as batteries... except that they are all going to be killed once the One reaches the source anyway. It would be a huge waste if that were the case, and negates the whole reason of going through the trouble of creating a second "reality"

The choice created by the mother, as mentioned by the architect, is the sub-concious choice to ACCEPT the programming of the matrix or not. Those that do not accpt the programming are people like morpheus and trinity, people that felt that something was wrong with the world, even though they never would have known why they felt that way.

The red pill/blue pill choice is a different matter.

Sentinel101 wrote:

The choice created by the mother, as mentioned by the architect, is the sub-concious choice to ACCEPT the programming of the matrix or not.

Again, I gotta disagree. You and I interpret what he says differently. I dont think he elaborates clearly enough to indicate that your interpretation is correct.

Is Zion a matrix within a matrix. There is some hints that it is. Most have been discussed, like Zion being destroyed 5 times, Neo stopping the sentinals, etc. However, there are also some other things. At the beginning of M2, the scene is of code. The code takes shape. If you look carefully, the shape appears to be Zion. It is more apparent when Link looks down on Zion and says, "It's good to be home." That scene is similar to the opening scene; however at a different angle.

Also, through out the movie, especially with the Oracle, Neo is confronted with a choice that he has already made. That is, no matter what he does, his choice has already been determined. When Neo is with the Architect, his choice is to enter the right or left door. However, either door would lead to a Matrix. You can go to the right and re-enter the Matrix, which will kill humanity and Zion, which has been destroyed 5 times. Or you can enter the left, choose people and re-build Zion (which would mean the then existing Zion is either in another Matrix or is destroyed). Further, if Neo enters the other door, how is it that he can choose people and rebuild Zion from entering a door in the Matrix, or specifically the construct where the Matrix is held. It appears, no matter what Neo does, he is in a Matrix.

However, this departs from Matrix within a Matrix, Neo may have had a another choice that he did not consider. Through suggestion and control, he is lead to beleive that he had only two choices. Take the red or blue pill. Take the left or right door. However, he nevers considers alternative - his flaw. Another choice, not apparent, is to do nothing. As Merovingian said, "Cause and effect." The cause and effect chain is broken by the absence of cause. Just something to think about, maybe irrelevant.

Dante1.0 wrote:

If you look carefully, the shape appears to be Zion.

I don't know how this proves anything, but it sounds good. Have added it.

Isn't what we're seeing as code at the beginning just the inner workings of the time clock??

And just before that, what are they showing us there? Looks to me like pictures of galaxies in code. Anyone??

>Prying open my third eye<

Everything written here could, in one way or another, point to one thing - rather than a MwM scenario, its actually just one BIG matrix. The choice p[eople have is whether to exist in the ZIon part of the Matrix (children of Zion), the Matrix part of the Matrix (unfreed) or between the two (those in the "real world" but plugging back and forth.

Perhaps there is some way for the machines to predetermine that a certain percentage of people will accept the Zion program, and the rest will accept the Matrix part. Those that leave the matrix part exist between the two programs, but still part of the same construct. So yes, I guess it is kind of a matrix within matrix theory, but in fact, its three different choices in one program...

Make sense?

People take for granted the type of reality that we face, is the same one that must be the "real world" in the Maxtrix movie. Well maybe in their reality Humans have superpowers and the Matrix is just there to keep them from finding out about that. Also it keeps them from killing the machines in the "real world", by conditioning them to think they have no superpowers at all. Kind of like in star wars, we think the force is something that is totally fake in our world, but in the star wars world using the force is not unusual(because that is their reality). I mean, heck, they might not really be on earth(as we know it) at all. It might be some distant planet and the machines created the planet in the matrix and called it earth. If none of this is true, then zion must be a matrix of some sort for neo to stop them as he did. Just a thought.

Go Marlins.