»So many things needed to be thought more properly !«

My opinion is that the specila effetcs and the action was great, but the story is far from perfect. At the end of Matrix Reloaded, I expected a very complex and interesting plot for Revolutions, that could possibly extend to a 4th or 5th episode. Instead, the end has been precipitated by a peace that doesn't make sense. Why would a war that lasted so long come to such an abrupt end just because Neo destroys Smith ? The machines don't have feelings or moral and could very well have made a false promise to Neo and exterminated the humans afterwards. Anyway the victory was certain for them. If they could end this war so easily, why has nobody else tried negotiating before ?

Other things that needed to be thought a bit more properly :

1) Even after seeing Animatrix, we still don't know who built the Matrix, when and why. The architect ? Who is he ? He pretends not to be human, but the Matrix was created after the war between the humans and the machines had started in Animatrix. If Smith could infect the machines, it means that they are also conected to the Matrix.
The fact that Neo get supernatural power in the real world (Zion) and that the Matrix is left to a mysterious human looking creature spoils the realism of the whole story, IMHO.

2) The Matrix world seems so small. Zion and the Machine City seem so near. What happens to the rest of the world ? Is there still nature ? Is everything controlled by the machines ? We never see any ocean. Machines probably can't live in the water if they get shortcircuited by human electric guns. Does that mean that fish and sealife still exist ?

3) If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ? There are no fields for cereals or vegetables inside Zion. I haven't seen any animal or source of water either. If humans can't go outside Zion safely or the Nature has been destroyed, they should have all died of hunger.

4) Machines supposedly get their energy from the humans in the red capsules, as we have seen in Animatrix. But why would they want to kill people in Zion if they can just capture them to use their energy. Then, as a human life is limited, what will happen to the machines once their human prisoners have all died ? They should try to keep humans under control but free to reproduce in Zion rather than exterminate them, which would amount to suicide.

5) There is not enough iron or metal in general on earth for Machines covering the entire globe - especially if they built such huge "metal cities".

Maciamo wrote:

If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ?

They eat algae which lives on human feces. I suppose

Maciamo wrote:

2) The Matrix world seems so small. Zion and the Machine City seem so near. What happens to the rest of the world ? Is there still nature ?

Zion would need to be close to 01. the bodies of the freed minds drop down into the sewer system and then retrieved via hovercraft (M1). if that's always the case, then an overly long trip increases the hazards involved with collecting refugees.

also, there are babies that are rescued from the Fields (comic). Zion would have to be especially close for that.

My opinion is that the specila effetcs and the action was great, but the story is far from perfect. At the end of Matrix Reloaded, I expected a very complex and interesting plot for Revolutions, that could possibly extend to a 4th or 5th episode. Instead, the end has been precipitated by a peace that doesn't make sense. Why would a war that lasted so long come to such an abrupt end just because Neo destroys Smith ? The machines don't have feelings or moral and could very well have made a false promise to Neo and exterminated the humans afterwards. Anyway the victory was certain for them. If they could end this war so easily, why has nobody else tried negotiating before ? - The reason the war was ended was because the machines needed Neo to kill Smith. And also, why would you think that machines don't have morals or feelings? Look at Sati, or Smith or the Oracle, or the Deus Ex Machina. Of course the machines have feelings and morals!

Other things that needed to be thought a bit more properly :

1) Even after seeing Animatrix, we still don't know who built the Matrix, when and why. The architect ? Who is he ? He pretends not to be human, but the Matrix was created after the war between the humans and the machines had started in Animatrix. If Smith could infect the machines, it means that they are also conected to the Matrix.
The fact that Neo get supernatural power in the real world (Zion) and that the Matrix is left to a mysterious human looking creature spoils the realism of the whole story, IMHO. - The machines made the Matrix, they probably just wrote the Architect program to do so. Smith could spread in others ways to the Machine World, since the machines I don't think are attached through to The Matrix, well Smith could just go through a programmer exit to the Source or something. The "mysterious human looking creature" is the Machine God, the Deus Ex Machina. And Neo has powers in both worlds, it doesn't take away realism, it just makes the movie deeper.

2) The Matrix world seems so small. Zion and the Machine City seem so near. What happens to the rest of the world ? Is there still nature ? Is everything controlled by the machines ? We never see any ocean. Machines probably can't live in the water if they get shortcircuited by human electric guns. Does that mean that fish and sealife still exist ? -The Machine City and Zion are obviously VERY far from Zion, if just from the distance between the surface and near the core. And if you watch the Animatrix, it is pretty obvious that everything is pretty much dead. Just look at the "Nuke the Earth" seen.

3) If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ? There are no fields for cereals or vegetables inside Zion. I haven't seen any animal or source of water either. If humans can't go outside Zion safely or the Nature has been destroyed, they should have all died of hunger. -Didn't you watch the first Matrix? Watch the "mess hall" seen again.

4) Machines supposedly get their energy from the humans in the red capsules, as we have seen in Animatrix. But why would they want to kill people in Zion if they can just capture them to use their energy. Then, as a human life is limited, what will happen to the machines once their human prisoners have all died ? They should try to keep humans under control but free to reproduce in Zion rather than exterminate them, which would amount to suicide. - What are you talking about? Just imagine how hard it would be to try to get all those humans plugged back into the Matrix. A lot of them don't even have plugs! And a lot of them would probably not accecpt the program (like they must have rejected the program the first time). The machines grow billions of humans in the fields, what do you mean killing people in Zion would amount to suicide.

5) There is not enough iron or metal in general on earth for Machines covering the entire globe - especially if they built such huge "metal cities". - You don't know if they dug deeper for the metal, or built artifical metal.



Think before you post.

knnknn wrote:

Maciamo wrote: If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ? They eat algae which lives on human feces. I suppose

for an insight into the food issue, see my post in the "Some paradoxes" forum titled "Food in Zion"

Maciamo wrote:

My opinion is that the specila effetcs and the action was great, but the story is far from perfect. At the end of Matrix Reloaded, I expected a very complex and interesting plot for Revolutions, that could possibly extend to a 4th or 5th episode. Instead, the end has been precipitated by a peace that doesn't make sense. Why would a war that lasted so long come to such an abrupt end just because Neo destroys Smith ? The machines don't have feelings or moral and could very well have made a false promise to Neo and exterminated the humans afterwards. Anyway the victory was certain for them. If they could end this war so easily, why has nobody else tried negotiating before ? Other things that needed to be thought a bit more properly : 1) Even after seeing Animatrix, we still don't know who built the Matrix, when and why. The architect ? Who is he ? He pretends not to be human, but the Matrix was created after the war between the humans and the machines had started in Animatrix. If Smith could infect the machines, it means that they are also conected to the Matrix. The fact that Neo get supernatural power in the real world (Zion) and that the Matrix is left to a mysterious human looking creature spoils the realism of the whole story, IMHO. 2) The Matrix world seems so small. Zion and the Machine City seem so near. What happens to the rest of the world ? Is there still nature ? Is everything controlled by the machines ? We never see any ocean. Machines probably can't live in the water if they get shortcircuited by human electric guns. Does that mean that fish and sealife still exist ? 3) If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ? There are no fields for cereals or vegetables inside Zion. I haven't seen any animal or source of water either. If humans can't go outside Zion safely or the Nature has been destroyed, they should have all died of hunger. 4) Machines supposedly get their energy from the humans in the red capsules, as we have seen in Animatrix. But why would they want to kill people in Zion if they can just capture them to use their energy. Then, as a human life is limited, what will happen to the machines once their human prisoners have all died ? They should try to keep humans under control but free to reproduce in Zion rather than exterminate them, which would amount to suicide. 5) There is not enough iron or metal in general on earth for Machines covering the entire globe - especially if they built such huge "metal cities".

1) The architect built the matrix to house the humans. Machines connected to the matrix, madness. If his powers took away from the realism while nothing else did, you shouldn't of watched this movie to begin with.

2) Sealife may live where no light penetrates because the algea can't perform photosynthesis to survive and fish eat algea, so they too would die out.

3) They make their mush, in one of the comics it talks about how they grow bread and make dangerous journeys to the surface to get it, something like that.

4) Human life isn't limited, they grow people. Did you watch the movies?

5) Who said it was metal, itcould atleast be artificially made metal.

There are many problems with the criticisms. Especially point one.

The matrix was built by machines. In the animatrix we watch the matrix being put together by machines so there is no doubt about that.

The achitect is a program, not a human, and he does not 'build' the matrix (machinery). He designs the matrix program.

Neo turns out to have a telepathic link to his power in the matrix. If seems that unlike the normal humans who require the ships to broadcast their minds into the matrix, Neo can do without the extra machinery to do this. He does not have a physical telepathic power to move objects, instead he affects the sentinels by affecting their programs from the inside - from the source.

Point two is interesting but since the real world is a desert it seems that most water is missing from the real world. (Remember there is water in a desert, just not much of it). It seems that the real world contains no animals. Why humans survived when animals did not is a good point to raise.

Point three is perfectly fair. There is no way they could produce food without nature. There is also the point that they could produce no oxygen either. How people in the real world are supposed to eat and breathe is nicely ignored in the movies.

There's tons of metal on the globe. I think i'd need some convincing before I'd accept point four.

There are animals, and plants, that survived. I posted something somewhere about "making" oxygen from taking apart compounds into elements, visa-vis, oxygen

There are no animals or plants in the real world in any of the movies or the animatrix (except for the monkey - and it ain't exactly an average monekey is it? -probably another robot.) The wachowskis actually said themselves that there are no animals in the real world in the matrix stories.

What makes you think that any animals survived? I didn't see any plants, but I'll let myself be corrected on that one. I certainly didn't see any animals and I very much doubt that there were any.

It's in the comic books.

Which one....?

My mistake, no animals, but plants there are. In the one where the bald guy goes to the surface to grow wheat to make bread.

also in enter the matrix

the operator says to ghost and niobe

"just so im clear on this..when i cart your bodies back to zion would you prefer cremation or the GARDENS"

this would imply artificial lighting to allow plants to grow under ground

as for there being no animals

i think technically there probably is

deep oceans and also some deep cave dwelling animals have never utilised sunlight at all either in the food that they eat(green plants or animals that need green plants)or directly for warmth etc

Could be a rock garden

there are both animals AND plants still surviving on earth. this is demonstrated in "The Miller's Tale" comic, where the humans go to salvage the grain from the seed depository deep in the countryside 'where no matrix-born human had ever been'.

here you see that the surface does have areas away from the machines that are teaming with life. it is summed up by the statement that:

Quote:

"yet at the edges of these wrecked vastnesses, life somehow persisted. the ducks, frogs, slugs and fungi had inherited the earth"

this is not to be taken literally, in the sense that it is not an exhaustive list, but rather an indication that it is the simpler organic life forms which have been able to survive. it is shown that there are 'meadows of wet weeds' and old streets which have now become forests.

Maciamo wrote:

My opinion is that the specila effetcs and the action was great, but the story is far from perfect. At the end of Matrix Reloaded, I expected a very complex and interesting plot for Revolutions, that could possibly extend to a 4th or 5th episode. Instead, the end has been precipitated by a peace that doesn't make sense. Why would a war that lasted so long come to such an abrupt end just because Neo destroys Smith ? The machines don't have feelings or moral and could very well have made a false promise to Neo and exterminated the humans afterwards. Anyway the victory was certain for them. If they could end this war so easily, why has nobody else tried negotiating before ?

If you feel this way, it's more than obvious that you didn't understand the movies AT ALL.

For starters, peace wasn't achieved just because Neo killed Smith. Smith became a threat to The Matrix and to the Real World. Neo becomes aware of this through his final meeting with The Oracle. Neo's meeting with the indian family in Mobil Ave. was what triggered Neo's decision to go bargain with the machines. He saw that Humans and Machines weren't so different after all. Machines were evolving and developing human emotions like love. Although Rama Kandra describes love as just a word and that what mattered was the connection the word implied, this was enough to make Neo think. That's why when he was finally out of The Matrix he went to think about what had to be done. He spent a lot of time making the connection between what Rama Kandra and The Oracle said to him. And the war didn't end that easily. First, someone had to be willing to make a sacrifice, and even if that were the case, that someone must have had something the machines wanted to be able to negotiate. If the machines didn't need anything, why would they make a deal? So, since this is the first time the machines need something, this is the first time a truce could be made.

Maciamo wrote:

Other things that needed to be thought a bit more properly : 1) Even after seeing Animatrix, we still don't know who built the Matrix, when and why. The architect ? Who is he ? He pretends not to be human, but the Matrix was created after the war between the humans and the machines had started in Animatrix. If Smith could infect the machines, it means that they are also conected to the Matrix. The fact that Neo get supernatural power in the real world (Zion) and that the Matrix is left to a mysterious human looking creature spoils the realism of the whole story, IMHO.

Like I said before, no understanding of the movies, whatsoever. The Matrix was abviously created by machines. Machines have A.I., so they have the ability to think for themselves. Perhaps a little robot like B166ER (or whatever, it's just an example) helped program the first Matrix. The Architect is just the avatar of the robot outside connected to The Matrix. It's not that Smith could infect the machines, but by destroying The Matrix, he would really fuck them. And who knows, he might infect them after all?

Maciamo wrote:

2) The Matrix world seems so small. Zion and the Machine City seem so near. What happens to the rest of the world ? Is there still nature ? Is everything controlled by the machines ? We never see any ocean. Machines probably can't live in the water if they get shortcircuited by human electric guns. Does that mean that fish and sealife still exist ?

Of course there's no nature, the whole sky was fucking scorched by humans. If there was a place with sunlight, don't you think it would be a hell of a lot easier to move towards that place instead of enslaving humans?
Who gives a shit about the fish anyway?

Maciamo wrote:

3) If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ? There are no fields for cereals or vegetables inside Zion. I haven't seen any animal or source of water either. If humans can't go outside Zion safely or the Nature has been destroyed, they should have all died of hunger.

Again, with the little or no understanding of the movies. They make their own food. It's a white goo that probably tastes like crap, but Dozer claimed in The Matrix that it had synthetized vitamins, proteins and minerals. And just because you don't see crops it doesn't mean there aren't any. I'm sure they can come up with a way to grow vegetables inside Zion using artificial sunlight or whatever.

Maciamo wrote:

4) Machines supposedly get their energy from the humans in the red capsules, as we have seen in Animatrix. But why would they want to kill people in Zion if they can just capture them to use their energy. Then, as a human life is limited, what will happen to the machines once their human prisoners have all died ? They should try to keep humans under control but free to reproduce in Zion rather than exterminate them, which would amount to suicide.

It's way much easier to blow the hell out of Zion than to capture its inhabitants alive and plug them in. I'm getting aggravated, because you obviously don't understand a fucking thing about the movies. Did you even watch the movies? Machines have "endless fields, where human beings are no longer born, they are grown"

Maciamo wrote:

5) There is not enough iron or metal in general on earth for Machines covering the entire globe - especially if they built such huge "metal cities".

There is just one "Machine City", which is 01, the place where Neo and Trinity go in Revolutions. And who the hell said machines covered the entire globe?

No offense, but I think you're the one who needs to think things more properly.