»Proof that Zion is a Matrix within Matrix«

...on technical difficulties, edited to deleted this post.

...on technical difficulties, edited to deleted this post.

Whoever called me a bum, I forgive you.
Do you have any proof whatsoever that Neo is a human?
(hint: Read Descartes "Discourse on Method and the Meditations" before answering)

If you watch the films, it is more and more obvious that Neo is a program.
If you missed it, then you didn't catch any of the clues.
If you don't believe it, then you have learnt nothing from the films.
You may as well go and see an action movie.
You are in the same position as the people of Zion - the Matrix has you, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Neo represents Christ, dying to save the world, in which case he is a saviour.
Or rather, the programs would have us believe he is Christ. In fact, he is a representation of Christ which fools the people of Zion into thinking peace has been achieved.
The programs studied Man's behaviour, his hopes. his dreams, his religions, and fashioned a world which was an 'escape' from the Matrix - Zion.
They had a clear understanding of the archetypal need within mankind to win battles against tangible foes, to be lead into victory by a charismatic leader, and to receive salvation from a saviour.
Tangible foes (Satan=Smith)
To be lead into victory by a charismatic leader (The Father figure, God=Morpheus)
To receive salvation from a saviour (Jesus=Neo)

what you just posted is rather closed minded and in many ways inaccurate.. and while u ask for proof, u presented none yourself.

yes there are INTERPRETATIONS that allow us to make comparisons for example with Neo as a Christ figure.. but in saying that is the ONLY answer and if you think anything otherwise then you didn't understand anything is rather ignorant. i mean, just as an illustration by limiting your comparison of Neo with Christ you totally ignored the blatantly apparent (and intentional) Buddhist parallels with Siddhartha and Neo as the Bodhisattva.

that of course doesn't mean that i would say that you should just stick to watching action movies just because you didn't point that out.. it's ok to have an opinion, but we'd all benefit if everyone was respectful of others opinions too

Okay, maybe that was a little harsh about the action movies.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if you refuse to believe that Neo is a program, then on a technological level, your view of the Matrix will tend to see Neo as some kind of action Hero.
Granted?
I am not ignoring the other philosophical aspects of Neo, merely highlighting one.
For example, the yin yang of the Matrix world/Zion world is further evidence of the programs desire to reflect humanistic philosophies upon the control programs. In places, Neo parallels the devil. We must remember that these are iconic references, not necessarily literal re-representations.
In the Matrix world, there is positive action, influenced by passive action in the Zion world. (The avatars directed by the pod hosts)
In the Zion world, there is postive action controlling passive in the Matrix world (energy controlling thought)
They are representative of the two sides of the yin/yang - and also the looking glass/rabbit hole/Wizard of Oz references.

You require proof that Neo is a program?
I think you can reach the conclusion by reason.
Answer these questions:
Who first prophesied The One?
Is it a man-made prophesy, or a program-made one?
Who believed the prophesy?

My answers:
Who first prophesied The One?
The Oracle
Is it a man-made prophesy, or a program-made one?
A program
Who believed the prophesy?
Morpheus

Let us consider the implications:

It is impossible for a CPU to work faster than the speed of light. If it did, it would, in effect be a 'time machine', and travel back in time.
Talk with Einstein for proof, if you need it.
Therefore, The Oracle is a program, but not a psychic.
Therefore, she only knows what will happen to programs, that are unaware of what will happen to them, she cannot actually predict the future.
It therefore appears that she knows the future.
(All this bearing in mind I am primarily interested in the possibility of the actual logical feasibility of the Matrix, with a side interest in its symbolism. As far as I know, all the technology is in place for this to happen in the very near future...and therefore it could have already happened...)
The Oracle foretold The One.
Follow this to its conclusion, and it is clear that Neo MUST be a program.
Morpheus' belief in The One, and the fact that he finds The One, liberates him etc. is fuelled by what he has been told by The Oracle...a program.

(Maybe I'm wrong: let me know what you think!)

i don't think Einstein stated that if you can travel faster than the speed of light, you could travel back in time..

if i'm not mistaken, under the theory of relativity, if you breach the speed of light.. you still travel forwards in time.. BUT you travel forwards at a DIFFERENT rate to everyone else.. i believe an example would be that an astronaut blasts off into space, assuming that we have the technology to travel faster than the speed of light... at the time he blasts off, his wife gives birth to a baby... i can't quite remember the exact figures off the top of my head.. but say he circles around space faster than the light speed for what he considers to be only a short time.. say 6 months.. he could come back to earth and discover that he is the same age as his son..

so Einstein only theorised that time is a relative factor and not a constant.. i'm not sure if this is what you were referring to, so if you were talking about something else then let me know...

ok, onto the Oracle.. i see what you're trying to say.. and i'm gonna summarise what i picked out of your post, so correct me if i misunderstood..

- we all know the Oracle can apparently predict future events

- this can be attributed to only 1 of 2 categories of explanation.. the 1st is the hocus pocus, psychic ability explanation.. and i'm fairly sure most people find this wholly UNSATISFACTORY and most likely NOT to be what the brothers intended... the 2nd category is the scientific/technical/logical explanation.. and this is the type of explanation you are trying to explain correct?

- ok, so your theory is.. the Oracle is a program.. she appears to be able to see into the future, but you believe that her ability stems ONLY from her ability to read programs right? because she can only read programs, she is able to forecast some events in the future based on simulation of a program's "behaviour", but is unable to see the futures of humans.

- since the Oracle has an unusually accurate record of predicting Neo's future.. you are concluding that she must be able to read him because he is a program and not human.

did i get that right?

IF i did.. then i have a question for you..

if the oracle can forecast certain events in Neo's future only because Neo is a program... then how come she predicts events regarding Morpheus, Trinity, Niobe, Ghost.. EVERY human that we see her meet.. she knows something about their future..

so if we go by your theory.. EVERYONE is a program! at least the main characters!

i still believe that the best explanation on offer is the one that suggests that she is a program who is adept at judging human character as a result of her being created to observe human behaviour... she therefore uses this knowledge in conjunction with millions of complex calculations and probabilities to project future events within the matrix to an uncanny degree of accuracy. this argument is not water-tight, i know.. i have a post where i questions certain things about it.. but from where i'm standing, it's the best theory we got right now.

Mmm, yes.
The Oracle (second edition) did seem to be almost surprised that Neo had turned up when he did...she said something about 'I wasn't expecting you' so soon or something, so maybe she is fallible.

BTW Einstein's theory does show that if you travel faster that light you'll travel back in time.

Consider light traveling from one planet (planet A) to another (planet B).
Suppose (A) Monday's light takes two days to reach (B) - It will arrive at (B) on Wednesday.
If you travelled faster than the light travelling from (A) to (B), you'll arrive there before the light does eg: on 'Tuesday'.
(think about this, and you'll see that there are an infinate amount of Tuesdays)
So, if you have reached (B) before Wednesday, you have arrived at (B) before you left (A)
The faster you go, the slower time will become.
(incidentaly, this is the reason astronauts watches ALWAYS come back to earth with the incorrect time on them - analogue or digital)
At the speed of light, time stands still - if you travelled at exactly the speed of light, the light would be a frozen moment of time, travelling through space with you.
If you overtake the light, you overtake time, and therefore travel back in time.
Consider this: if we look into space far enough, we can see the big bang, because it's light hasn't reached us yet (this is not theoretical).
If we could travel fast enough, we would reach it, therefore travelling back in time.

"Time is what the clock says" - Einstein

ok thanks.. i guess i only knew the first part of the relativity!

I was sitting down re-watching The Matrix Reloaded yesterday, and found myself thinking maybe Zion is just another form of control. For people who start to believe that they are in the matrix, they are brought into the so called real world Zion. I though I was the first one to think this up, but little did I know I would join a forum board a little over twenty four hours later and find it has already been thought up. The more I think about it though, the more I stop believing it.

As for Einstein, if you haven't read the book, The Universe In A Nutshell by Stephen Hawkins, it is very good at explaining things about time if you don't understand it with all the jargon.

welcome to the forum tommy. Yes i believe that, any theory you have has been discussed here. Yes it is a slight control. but after Neo went to the source it broke that control.

Thanks, and I hope after about a week browsing this forum I can understand The Matrix movies about 100%. I would say I know more then the average person who has seen the movies, but the more major fans probably know a lot more then me, and I hope to learn from them.

well have fun.

On the pills: I was just extracting the possible hypothesis that both of the worlds are only computer constructs...& the different communication between the two are each handled differently. It's just pure conjecture & for fun, but what I was saying is that 'zion & the real world' could be a construct coded a certain way & the jacking in is merely a communication port to translate into the 'MATRIX' construct...which is the same type thing only w/a different type coding.

It would still have the red pill as a locator...but would not have to mean that it was for the real world, but could've just been another matrix-like construct where the pods are, etc. That's what I was saying.

Just 2 different matrix-like constructs that are filed, encoded differently but can communicate, translate data between each other thru certain protocols, etc. the neck-jackin-spots, etc. Also, I thought there were several symbols depicting a translation of data between different constructs in the way of 'sattelite,' & other code impressions shown.

More, on mwm: how about the 'balance' thing? It seems that there's also a balance between zion & machine world as well, same # of sentinels as zionites....plus on surface, could represent other things as well.

What's the inference made signifying the number of new zionites to be selected for a zion restart? What is the SIGNIFICANCE of that? Seems there must be one (the way this film seems to have been thought out & made)! It seems represent something to do with chromosomes? Or the symbolism thereof? It appears would be only 1/2 of total 46, so seems to imply another 1/2 of somelthing from somewhere else?
_______________________
All that's fun speculation, but my MAIN QUESTION FOR MwM is still:

CHOREOGRAPHED COINCIDENCE: inside matrix happenings choreographed with the 'real world' happenings, the ship being blown up & being seen as no accident. It doesn't make sense UNLESS all of it is in the machine's control, meaning all is a matrix construct of some sort. (Oh, by the way, that ship looked like the Sphinx sitting up there.)

Just tell me your thoughts on the last question (mainly)?
(I'm not decided on final conclusions nor trying to make it one way or the other; this is just an investigation of this one theory)