»Some answers to questions on the main page...«

Why did the machines invent the matrix simulation at all? All they need to do is to cut a few nerves in the brain to make the bodies helpless.

From the Animatrix, I recall the story where the machines tried to use humans for energy but they continued to die. Even in a comatose state, the human body would not live as long as if it were active, at least brain activity.


How could Zion be destroyed and repopulated already 5 times? What happened with all the debris? An important question dealing about whether Zion is real or just another rebootable simulation.

When Zion was previously destroyed, it would most likely just be the people of Zion and not the actual city. I'm sure there was architectural damage but the few who were left alive to re-populate would have cleaned up and recycled everything during the 100 years. It is strange that the people of Zion don't have stories or remember the history of the destruction. That makes me believe that the Architect lied about Neo's true purpose.

Blade Parker wrote:

When Zion was previously destroyed, it would most likely just be the people of Zion and not the actual city. I'm sure there was architectural damage but the few who were left alive to re-populate would have cleaned up and recycled everything during the 100 years. It is strange that the people of Zion don't have stories or remember the history of the destruction. That makes me believe that the Architect lied about Neo's true purpose.

not true...listen to the Architect's speech again. in particular, his description of what is about to happen to Zion.

heh.

Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed - its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

This statement is very open to possibilities. I take it that the people of Zion are about to be destroyed. I think the Architect is using a metaphor when speaking of it's existence eradicated. If Everyone in Zion is dead and nobody knows or remembers it, it IS destroyed. On the other hand, I believe that the Architect is lying about almost everything he says. If Neo believes that there were other one's, he will believe that he is simply part of a planned event and become weaker.


Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Now if the above statement were true, Neo would have to die or disappear and never have contact with any of the individuals he selected from the Matrix. If he did have contact, which he should since he is choosing these people (what's to stop him... he is the one), they would all know about Zion and pass it down through the generations. Therefore I believe this to be a lie as well. Nobody in Zion knows about this.

The Architect does not lie. It is not efficient for a program, and especially not the Architect, to tell real lies.

Neo can rebuild Zion without telling the new Zionist too much. The new One has to be found on a new unique way. This is because of the "Know Thyself"-plate where the Oracle refers to.

Perhaps, the one thing machines can not destroy is the human ability to make a choice. Choice is unpredictable. Why didn't the machines destroy that ability as they noodled with the human body and psyche? Perhaps they recognized the best and worst in us.

Choice, if viewed as a capability worth harnessing( like horses) then would be considered powerful, and perhaps the one thing the machines could not manipulate or DARE not manipulate: an inate human quality and one that establishes the superiority of one individuals capacity for survival over another.

Mobil_Ave_Neo wrote:

The Architect does not lie. It is not efficient for a program, and especially not the Architect, to tell real lies.

Artificial Intelligence would not be so human if it were perfect. Simply put, if Ai were perfect it would not be Ai. The machines and programs all have options and choices because of this but most of them follow orders and the chain of command.

As I mentioned, Neo is a threat to the balance so lying would be the only way for the machines to weaken him. They already know they can't beat him in the Matrix so they have to take away his beliefs.

Your post seem resonable to me blade. If, at this point in time, programs can have children, (Sati) why is it so hard to believe that machines CANNOT lie?

Very Good Point.

Quote:

Oracle: What about the others? Architect: What others? Oracle: The ones that want out. Architect: Obviously, they will be freed. Oracle: I have your word? Architect: What do you think I am? Human?

Doesn't this proof enough for you?

Despite the fact that their AI has evolved into human traits, this doesn't take away the fact that they are still programs with bounded parameters.
It is in no way efficient for a machine or program to just lie; it's not within their parameters.

If the machines and programs would accept lying as a 'tool', why should Deus Ex Machina keep it's promise then? After the destruction of Neo and Smith, he could have just ordered the Sentinels to continue their slaughter.

Mobil, actually you make an important point. Lying is a wrong word for what architect is doing. I would call it misleading. Can a program be designed to mislead? Why not? There are many viruses out there to mislead you to do something you don’t want to do. Architect is creator of the whole thing that keeps humans in a pod and then allows for a system that leads them to believe that they have some job, family and a whole virtual life out there. If he can mislead to that extent why would it be difficult for him to mislead Neo when he meets him. Like a human he may not lie out of choice, but can mislead out of the very compulsion of parameters (variables of equation as Oracle puts it)

The conversation you quoted actually proves a point, that Oracle doesn’t take his word at face value. But her attitude toward him is not that of anger or contempt, but rather that of playful second-guessing.

The Matrix is not really a lie. It's a simulation offered to the human minds. It's their choice werther to accept it or not. Gladly for the Architect, most of the people do. He only has to deal with a hardcore group of refusers now.

Quote:

Merovingian: Oh yes, I'm sure you do, you have fought through hell to do so, yes? I'll tell you what I'll do. Put down the guns and I will promise you safe passage out of here. Seraph: All three of us. Merovingian: Oh yes, yes. Of course.

Now the Merovingian symbolizes Satan/Hades. Satan is the master of the lie. Seraph seems to trust him on his word though. That's because programs don't lie.

The Oracle leads more than she misleads. She always tells the truth. Even when she told Neo that he was not the One, she told the truth by later correcting herself by saying: "in your next life maybe".
She also doesn't lie when she says that Neo has to go to the Source in order to save Zion. If the One chooses the hard path, it is indeed possible to save Zion.
So she never lies or misleads. She just tells the partial truth. Neo has to find out the rest on his own ("Know Thyself" in her kitchen).

The Architect doesn't lie either. He only tells the partial truth by leaving out some details for Neo. Like the fact that Smith will be causing the system crash if Neo does not comply to the requested process.
Confront me with any line from the Architect and I will proof to you that he is not lying.

I also feel, ‘liar’ is not the right word to descibe architect. Say, a digital clock programmed to tell time is also programmed to adjust for daylight savings as we just experienced recently. But when one flies outside the country it shows a misleading time if the parameter for time zone adjustment is not programmed in it. It didn’t lie like a human would do, but still one could not take what the watch says at its face value either. That is my main point. Architect is a similar program. Very smart one. Programmed to build but not necessarily care for those who run the gizmos he builds. As a result he may provide a lot of accurate information from a certain viewpoint (like in his speech) but still can present misleading conclusions (about the door) based on the intent of the algorithm he is programmed for and the dimensions (caring) he is not programmed for and hence cannot be taken at face value. Both Oracle and Neo are wise to do that and that is why they pull off what they do.

I don’t believe that he is bad dude either, he is organized, smart in head but a bit handicapped at heart. As he loves his gizmo little too much and wants to keep it running by hook (virtual reality world for humans) or by crook (Policing by Smiths and Jones). But that is the way he is made, to not look beyond the variables of some equations.

Quote:

Quote: Oracle: What about the others? Architect: What others? Oracle: The ones that want out. Architect: Obviously, they will be freed. Oracle: I have your word? Architect: What do you think I am? Human? Doesn't this proof enough for you? Despite the fact that their AI has evolved into human traits, this doesn't take away the fact that they are still programs with bounded parameters.

Therefore, we are presuming here that the Oracle and the Architect are discussing the freeing of programs? There is still an ambiguity for me as to which race they are discussing: humans or programs.

I'd like to offer my opinion on this idea of the programs lying (or degree of lying).

Perhaps the entire thing rests on the presumption that only if you ask the right question can you get the answer you need.

As in M3 where Neo confronts the Oracle and asks her why she didn't tell him about what he was about to experience in his first meeting with her in M1:

Neo: Then why didn't you tell me about the Architect? Why didnt; you tell me about Zion, the Ones before me - why didn't you tell me the truth?

Or: Because it wasn't time for you to know.

Neo: Who decided it wasn't time?

Or: You know who. (she points at the Tenet Nosce sign above the door).

And Neo seemingly accepts this answer. Notice how succinct and un-selfconscious and direct his questions are in M3 with the Oracle since his journey, his experiences which led to his growth and knowledge.

My point can be summed up in the age old adage: when the student is ready then the teacher appears ( read: when the student asks the right question, the master can give the right answer)

Blade Parker wrote:

Simply put, if Ai were perfect it would not be Ai.

AI was created by Man, who, I think we can all agree, is not perfect.

So how could any creation by an imperfect being be perfect? Even the Architect, who arrogantly believes himself to be "bound by the parameters of perfection" could not create perfection; each time he tried, it failed miserably.

"The problem is choice." When programs are up for deletion, "they can either choose to hide [in the matrix], or return to the source." Everything begins with choice.

Thus, the path to perfection is inherently imperfect. It is another syzygy, yin and yang, and very Zen, not to mention perfectly Gnostic.

d1 wrote:

...My point can be summed up in the age old adage: when the student is ready then the teacher appears ( read: when the student asks the right question, the master can give the right answer)

Whoah. I never looked at it that way; but I certainly will from now on!

To elaborate on what Mobil wrote, it wouldn't be hard at all to mislead or not tell the Zionites( I like that word better) everything about what happened. Look at Morpheus in M1 "When the Matrix was first built there was a man born inside that had the ability to change what he wanted, to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. It was this man that freed the first of us and taught us the secret of the war; control the Matrix and you control the future. " By the word "us" Morpheus does not mean himself directly, but humans as a whole. The Oracle of course tells these guys that the next The One will herald.... all that stuff. Suffice to say it seems obvious to me atleast that is has been done before. I am sure someone else can take it from here.