[Matrix Reloaded]
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Matrix-within-Matrix: Is Zion just another Matrix?

 

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**********DONT READ THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE A BRAIN*************

Why do fans expect the Brothers to explain every detail of the Matrix films? There is such a thing called creative expression. If all movies required a detailed explanation by this logic "clockwork orange", 2001, Close Encounters and a score of other artistic sci fi films would never have been made.

************WHY I'm Gonna Answer Dumb Questions*****************
Because I love the Matrix films (all three) and have watched them numerous times I will give my opinion of why and what some of the questions the Matrix trilogy raises and does & doesn't answer.

*******************Answering DUMB Questions?*******************

First if you remember at the end of the first film many people were baffled by how such a great film could end so strangely ala superman/pay phone. What did this have to do with the film I just saw and what could it have to do with any potential sequel(s)? How does he know he can fly and when did he learn it. But wait.... remember the famous jump test in the middle of the film. Remember what Morpheus said before he jumped "Free Your Mind". Neo failed to do this and that is why he failed. Many viewers fail to do this in the Reloaded and Revolutions and that is why they don’t understand. But wait a minute what does the phone booth have to do with Reloaded and all the talk the architect says about Neo being an anomaly. Well Webster says an anomaly is: something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified. That is exactly what Neo is to the Matrix. At the end of the first film at the phone booth the Matrix writes, "the anomaly has been identified". Meaning they know who the new anomaly is now because he made contact with them. Why new? Earlier in the first film Morpheus tells Neo that there was another person who freed the current generation of people in Zion and he could do anything in the Matrix. This person Morpheus is talking about was the last "anomaly" aka "the one". This person lived long before Morpheus's time so that’s why he is talked about as legend and Zion awaits his successor Neo. The point is the confusing points of reloaded is explained in the first film.

***********************THE BIG QUESTION*********************
Now how does Neo stop the sentinels while he appears to be in the "real world"? To understand you must first understand a few things. In order to go in and out of the Matrix you must be jacked in. The jack goes into the brain, which creates "VR" virtual reality aka the Matrix. This is the only way the Matrix can exist it cant be physically touched. The Matrix was created to keep people mislead while "The Machine City" uses them as power. The Machine City which took over after "AI" (artificial intelligence) ruled the world controls the sentinels (the protection for the Machine City) and the Matrix (the power). Neo believes he has unjacked from the matrix but he has not. Part of Neo's "Residual Self image" (R.E.S explained in the first movie) is still in the Matrix and Part of the Matrix program is still jacked in his brain. That’s why inside the Matrix he is in a state of limbo ala train station until someone more knowledgeable than him "The Merovingian" who knows backdoor codes allows him a way out. How does he control the Sentinels? The Sentinels must obey the "Machine City" which gets its power from the Matrix and Neo controls the Matrix when he is jacked in. Remember Neo believes he has unjacked from the Matrix but he has not his "Residual Self image" still resides inside the program in the train station so the sentinels must obey "the anomaly: something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified".

*****************Answering More DUMB Questions***********
Oh yeah and the question about how can Zion have been destroyed so many times this movie takes place very far in the future (the real world) the Matrix is made to look like the year 1999 just before the machines took over. Also explain in the first film duhh
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Why do fans expect the Brothers to explain every detail of the Matrix films? There is such a thing called creative expression. If all movies required a detailed explanation by this logic "clockwork orange", 2001, Close Encounters and a score of other artistic sci fi films would never have been made.


The audience isn't expecting the Wachowski brothers to explain every detail of the Matrix films. But the audience has every right to expect an explanation to the important questions of the movie. For example, in the first movie, the audience asks, "Why does the Matrix exist?" We're given the answer that it's a form of control that enables the machines to use humans as batteries. Now this is an attempt at a plausible explanation. It of course instantly begs the question, "But why not use a more efficient form of energy, or why not use a more docile life form?" However, those are questions that it's fair for the audience to ponder on the forums.

However, in the second movie, we're given the cliff-hanger and potentially ground-shaking new plot twist --- Neo can control machines in the real world with his mind. So of course the audience asks, "How can Neo control machines with his mind?" The only answer we're given is some vague tripe about him being The One. In other words, he can do it because he can do it. This isn't just some minor detail left unanswered, either. It's an essential plot element of the third movie. Without this ability, Neo could not have made it alive to the machine city.

The problem is that the diehard fanbois are willing to unquestioningly believe whatever the Wachowki brothers put in front of them on the silver screen.

You talk about freeing your mind. Well then, why not try critically analyzing what's in front of you, instead of unquestioningly accepting it? How can you believe you have "freed your mind" if you're accepting the movies on blind faith? Sounds like you're the one who needs to be freed....

Your explanation for "The Big Question" is unsupportable. To summarize the logic you presented....
1. Neo controls the Matrix when he is jacked in.
2. Neo's residual self-image remains in the Matrix when he is not jacked in.
3. Part of the Matrix remains in Neo's brain when he is not jacked in.
4. The sentinels must obey the machine city.
5. The machine city must obey whomever controls the Matrix.
6. Because of (2) and (3), Neo is connected to the Matrix even when he is not jacked in.
7. Because of (1) and (6), Neo controls the Matrix even when he is not jacked in.
8. Because of (4) and (5), the sentinels must obey whomever controls the Matrix.
9. Because of (7) and (8 ), the sentinels must obey Neo even when he is not jacked in.

But the problems arise in the assumptions you make.
1. Neo doesn't control the Matrix, in the sense of managing its input/output. We are never given reason to believe that he can control the power that the Matrix produces and feeds to the machine city. The only control Neo exerts over the Matrix is that he can bend/break its rules. We see on more than one occasion, too, that there are some rules in the Matrix that he is incapable of bending/breaking. For example, he cannot bend/break the rules so as to free himself from the train station; he is imprisoned there until Trinity rescues him.
2. We never see evidence that anyone's self-image remains in the Matrix while they're not jacked in. We're never given reason to believe that Mr Anderson keeps walking around the Matrix, doing his day-to-day routine. The implication we are given in the first movie is that your residual self-image is what you bring back in with you when you jack in. It's your memory of your physical traits when you were jacked into the Matrix as a battery and unaware of the outside world.
3. There's no reason to believe that the Matrix program is in Neo's head.
4. (No issue with this one --- we see at the end of the third movie that the sentinels are controlled by the machines.)
5. It does not make sense to say that the machines must obey the Matrix. That's like saying that your automobile must obey the fuel pump. True, your automobile would be crippled without the fuel pump, but that doesn't mean the fuel pump can dictate where you plan on driving your car.

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another example of a closed minded idiot who thinks the world revolves around his opinions

go away to a site where idiocy and ignorance are tolerated in equal measure please

i thank you in advance of your fucking off

goodbye

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amen

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The Anomaly wrote -

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go away to a site where idiocy and ignorance are tolerated in equal measure please


Anomaly, now you know better than that...

Much has been tolerated and shall be tolerated ad-infinitum, or ad-nauseum(!) on this site - long may the tolerence reign... Thumbup

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, no matter what.

....Remember - Perception is in the eye/mind of the beholder....
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First if you remember at the end of the first film many people were baffled by how such a great film could end so strangely ala superman/pay phone. What did this have to do with the film I just saw and what could it have to do with any potential sequel(s)?

I don't agree that there was much confusion at all concerning the end of the first movie, especially after coming back from the dead, stopping bullets, flying into an agent and destroying it, and let us not forget the less than suttle suggestions throughout the film that the matrix was NOT REAL and was simply an interpretation of an illusion of reality. A true acceptance of this yielding infinite possibilites.
NEO:
"I know you're out there...I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us, you're afraid of change...I don't know the future...I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end, I came here to tell you how this is going to begin. Now, I'm going to hang up this phone, and I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you...a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries...."

It doesn't get much more black and white than that. The deeper meaning may have been that he was not speaking to the machines but all viewers indirectly, hinting that while reality as we know it may seem "real" it is no different than the matrix. Which led us directly into the sequels where the powers he has start to appear outside the matrix. Of course that is according to theory only. But interesting, no?

Quote:

Many viewers fail to do this in the Reloaded and Revolutions and that is why they don’t understand. But wait a minute what does the phone booth have to do with Reloaded and all the talk the architect says about Neo being an anomaly. Well Webster says an anomaly is: something different, abnormal, peculiar, or not easily classified. That is exactly what Neo is to the Matrix.


Well thats only partly true. Neo is an anomoly to EVERYONE. In the matrix, and outside, to the machines to the programs to the humans.

Quote:

This person Morpheus is talking about was the last "anomaly" aka "the one". This person lived long before Morpheus's time so that’s why he is talked about as legend and Zion awaits his successor Neo. The point is the confusing points of reloaded is explained in the first film.


Well hold on just a second. This is one misconception that people may have bought into or I am wrong. The only characters in the films who even mentioned these "others" were:
The Oracle(Told Morpheus)
The Architect.
The Merovingean
These somewhat "godlike" people seem to manipulate the matrix in their own ways. This can be expanded on but ....
Taking a closer look at these characters. The Oracle is the only character who could have told Morpheus this. I am led to believe that Morpheus never came into contact with the Architect or the Merovingean(before the second film). The Oracle as we find out does not so much about the future, as she is able to skillfully manipulate the people in the matrix through suggestive rhetoric and dime store- fortune cookie tidbits of obvious prophecy. A powerful tool that can manipulate the masses if she just provides an illusion of choice. She was apparently punished for something that she did. Making her own choice to help Neo and company, and losing her body or shell or whatever. As this seems to be a write in given the death of the actress who portrayed the first version of the Oracle, Ill ignore this. Now who was it that punished her? The Architect, Merovingean?

The Architect, while seeming to be a man of power or possibly the leader of the machines or something. Is there any reason to believe that he would not be the same type of manipulator that the Oracle is?
Taken at face value, was it not a little confusing that while he knew this to be "the one" , and NEO believing this to be the end of the road and the enemy he frees people from, they had nothing but an enlightening conversation similar to talks with the oracle. Sending right back to the Oracle with the contradictary information. here is how the Oracle and the architect describe eachother:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.
Neo: The Oracle.
Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probablility of disaster.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Neo: The Architect told me that if I didn't return to the Source, Zion would be destroyed by midnight tonight.
Oracle: *rolls eyes* Please... You and I may not be able to see beyond our own choices, but that man can't see past any choices.
Neo: Why not?
Oracle: He doesn't understand them - he can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved and countered. That's his purpose: to balance an equation.
Neo: What's your purpose?
Oracle: To unbalance it.
----------------------------------------------


This tells me that they were integral in the making or the maintainance of balance inside the matrix, and that they worked together. The meeting with the Architect was in no way an opportunity for enlightenment, it was a setup. Another attempt to push NEO to the acceptance of his own demise. There was no choice for NEO to make. He was NOT going to let Trinity die. And he would have to tackle whichever problem came first. The Oracle and the New this the whole time.

The Merovingean was slightly out of place. Kind of the prince of darkness/slash mobster. His crew were all monsters(wherewolves, vampires etc) As mentioned by the Oracle, he was there from the earliest times. He is very powerfull indeed to do what he wants and never come across an agent who came to delete him. And he also knew very well the whereabouts and doings of Neo and company, just like the other 2

Now these are programs. And they do not live outside the matrix?
maybe maybe not. Who is to say that they are not the Visual self image of themselves. The creators of the matrix, who built it for a purpose other than the ones discribed. And how, does one sneak a program from a program to the real world?

One answer is that the matrix is all inclusive.
That the "real world were zion was was just another layer of the matrix.
I think there is a simpler explaination that plays into a theory I am building on from the knowledge I have gained from people I have encountered on this site.
There is no real world.
There is no singular reality.
The matrix is an interactive simulation whos interface is the brain.
Reality is no different than that.
What you see hear smell touch taste is the info you recieve in exactly the same way as you do in the matrix.
I read recently that
In human beings the 80 percent of the nerves connect to eachother, not to the input from the eyes and ears. Everything we see and understand about our existence is only accepted after we process the information against our memory. Which technically really doesnt even exist. Whos to say what you remember isnt made up. Not unheard of. That your brain filled in the pieces around what you could understand. Thus creating a reality. We all live in our own worlds. Your perception cannot be shared totally with others, just what we have agreed we are able to express to eachother. Using tools that were given to us all our life about the rules of life and what is possible. and what is not.
Maybe thats what the Wachowskis were trying to say is that there is so much that is hidden from us. And that if we could just believe and understand that what we want is attainable we can do anything. We could change the world.
But this could go all night cause it could mean something totally different. But I think I am better off pondering than knowing.

Sorry so long

The meaning of life is to find the meaning of life.

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