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»Neo's power in real world (revised version)«

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More Matrix theories, More Matrix explanations

 

scientheist

  

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Good to see the discussion back on track. These days I'm very busy but I'll reply on the weekends (I've got college from 9.00 am- 4.30 pm and have to work from 7.00 pm - 2.00 am !)

Ralph,

My opinion on philosophy is totally different. Philosophy is something which you should feel within and apply it in your life. What I do is I'll read a philosophy, try to get the key points out of it and then apply it to things like history, current affairs, surroundings, people I meet etc. ONLY then I feel that I've understood that philosophy. It is a personal journey. All the other philosophy which I come across in my life are just tools which aid me in that personal journey. This is what I meant by seeking answers in "inner world" (and this is not egoism in any sense). It does'nt really matter to me whether I read Baudrillard or Descartes. They are just tools and I dont consider those philosophies as a part of me unless I've applied them to things I know of.

Consider this possibility : What if every philosopher is deliberately lying to you so that you dont figure out the truth ? How do u know that the philosophy you read is not a deception ? How do u identify a genuine philosophy ? (Seems we're going off track again ! May be I'll start a seperate thread on philosophy later and we'll discuss all our opinions there.)

ralph_angelus wrote:

1)you take it a bit too far sometimes


hmm...yes. I dont really realize that I take it too far. But then, I'm "only human" and its a human trait ! When u invest too much of your time on an idea, you tend to get blind and your common sense gets stupid. This is why some religious fanatics are willing to give their lives for their beliefs. I hope that it has not happened to me !

ralph_angelus wrote:

you look at people who appreciate symbolic interpretations better as some kind of horrid creatures which crawled out from beneath your computer table.


No, thats not true. I do love to read some interesting "symbolic" thoeries here (esp the ones by bachsoffice and starbuck Wink)

Free your Mind !
Apocryphe

  

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I don't have the courage to read these 7 pages of debating... anyone could thell me the conclusion of the topic ? Where do Neo'spowers in reality come from ?
I have my own idea but I'd like to hear these from other people first.

Neo:"there is no spoon"
Merovingian:"there is no lipstick!"
scientheist

  

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Apocryphe wrote:

anyone could thell me the conclusion of the topic ? where do Neo'spowers in reality come from ?


I dont think I can explain the answer in a single line. Chk these posts, it covers most of what we discussed in this thread.

matrix-explained.com...


matrix-explained.com...

max82

Re: Neo's power in real world (revised version)  

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scientheist wrote:

Neo evaded his death again and his mind landed on Mobil Ave accidentally. Mobil-Ave is not in machine's control (an illegal link between the two worlds). So the source was not successful in killing Neo.


maybe the merovingian hacked the sentinels before they could harm neo in m2. he just WANTED the eyes of the one..?

mofo5131

  

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Apologies if this has been quoted previously!

Taken from:

wylfing.net...


Concerning the 6th Incarnation

About Neo Number 7 we have very little to say. He is a god, and not really part of the story. He represents what the 6th Neo becomes. All the suffering is with Number 6, and so that is where my focus is. But even among the non-godly six, the sixth and final mortal incarnation is quite different than all who came before him.

Perhaps the most important way that the 6th Neo is different from his predecessors is that he wields apparently supernatural powers in the real world. I also think that his abilities within the Matrix are far beyond what any previous incarnation possessed. Let's start with what the Architect says in Reloaded:

ARCHITECT - Your 5 predecessors were, by design, based on a similar predication: a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific, vis-a-vis love.

We have sufficient evidence here to say the 6th incarnation is different. But I want to explore the fact that the Architect says Neo's attachment is by design. In one email exchange with a reader, I suggested that Neo might be genetically engineered. A "programmed" human would make perfect sense to the machines, and it would also seem to give credence to the idea that Neo is continually reincarnated -- at the end of each incarnation's journey his genetic code is recorded, then it is reinserted at a later date. The machines design Neo to feel an attachment toward the rest of humanity through genetic engineering just like they design his ability to manipulate the Matrix.

I know the genetically-engineered aspect is uncomfortable for a lot of people. It's not the whole story of what I'm trying to say, either. I think it's parallel with Dune and the kwisatz haderach. In Dune, the Bene Gesserit order has been manipulating bloodlines for eons (i.e., genetic engineering through selective breeding) in order to bring about a superbeing. Their experiments actually work, but in a way that they did not intend. Muad-dib is much greater than they imagined, and not under their control at all. So it is with Neo. The machines manipulate genes in order to try and "catch" the energy of the unbalanced equation -- to provide a receptacle that can contain this energy and use it within the confines of a predefined script. Exactly how or when this "One" appears is unknown, but in aggregate statistics it's an certainty that he will appear. And when he does, he is led down a specific path. What the machines do not grasp (except for the Oracle) is that this kwisatz haderach is not under their control and is becoming much more than they imagined.

(As a sidenote, I don't think it is actually necessary to believe that Neo is reincarnated six times. It's possible for the story to work perfectly well with no connection whatsoever between Neo and the previous six instances of The One. I think it adds to the awe of it to have the reincarnation aspect, though. It requires a soul, something greater than what can be rationally summed.)

Now regarding Neo's special abilities: the functioning of the Matrix is the way to understanding these. It's quite a popular opinion that the abilities in the Matrix correlate exactly to strength of will. The idea is that Neo is just willing himself over these obstacles. I think that ignores the facts. Neo's powers in the Matrix manifest when he feels deep bonds with other human beings, most of all Trinity. As his relationship with Trinity grows, so does his power in the Matrix.

I don't think this is very surprising. The Matrix is, in William Gibson's language, a consensual hallucination. It should exhibit the qualities felt most strongly by its participants. (This is also why there is The One: to allow humans to exercise their will on the Matrix. More on this momentarily.) But even on a purely physical level it's still the case. The Matrix is powered by human bio-electricity. What is that? It's thoughts and feelings, impulses and urges of the body. Therefore, everything in the Matrix is the result of human emotion, or more accurately the ebb and flow of the aggregate emotion of the entire human race.

Neo is genetically designed to tap into this aggregate bio-electrical circuit, and he focuses and amplifies that energy. The extent of that amplification is tied to his personal emotional level. In his previous incarnations, Neo's generic feeling toward the rest of humanity afforded him a certain amount of power in the Matrix. But this time around, because of Trinity, the depth of his emotion is incredibly multiplied. As a result, so is his power in the Matrix. The same explanation works for everyone else, too. ER, not really everyone. We don't see special abilities in the Matrix from anyone except Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, Ghost, and Niobe. All five of them have strong emotions and deep connections to others. It is possible to suppose that all five of these people were genetically designed as well. I won't go either way on that except to say one thing: If the first interpretation that I gave regarding the relationship between the Ages and the Incarnations is true, then there is very little engineering that needs to be done.

It's not a very big leap from powers in the Matrix to Neo's powers in the real world. All the human bio-electricity flows from the pod fields to the Source, and then it is redistributed back to the Matrix along well-defined channels. The humans plugged into the Matrix then have experiences, from which they have emotions, and their emotional energy flows back to the Source. What I haven't mentioned is the machines. They are parasites on this energy loop between the humans and the Source. We should also notice that Neo's apparently "supernatural" abilities in the real world are strictly limited to affecting machines. He doesn't fly or do kung fu in the real world. The reason for this limitation is that he is merely tapping into the energy loop and...modifying it. Just like in the Matrix, where he modifies the energy loop to defy gravity, etc.

In the real world, however, his interface to the loop is much less well defined. There's no specific plug to filter the energy stream. He's got to tap into it directly, and that puts him in immediate contact with the Source, and that leads straight to Mobil Ave (at least until he is mentally and spiritually prepared for such direct contact). Now I suppose there isn't an explicit mechanism by which Neo should be able to tap into an energy loop in the real world, but it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to genetically design someone to be sensitive to electrical currents. I prefer to think that his real-world abilities were never part of the design.

There are of course much broader mythological meanings through all of this. The best evidence of that is Link and Zee. I think these were the two most emotionally charged characters in the trilogy, and between them accomplish some amazing things that strain the limits of possibility. And it happens in the real world. That's where the real energy and the real message is.

I'd like to return once more to the idea that all the machines are running off of human emotion. It isn't power that the machines need from humans, it's feelings, belief, and hope. The electrical power angle is just the metaphor. One reader wrote me to ask "What makes the machines go on day after day? Why do they continue? What reason do they have to exist?" Aside from ringing all the symbolic bells in the entire story, it spotlighted the exact nature of the machines' power source. The machines go on because the humans go on. The will to live and to grow and to feel and to experience is what they do not have and cannot invent. The power they get from human beings is the power to hope.

And finally this goes to the deepest core theme of the trilogy. At the end of the Reloaded essay when I speculated far and wide about what might come, I said this:

Humanity achieved "simple" godhood by creating beings in its own image. It will achieve "complex" godhood by reuniting with its estranged children. At the same time, so will machines.

Neo's -- humanity's -- path is toward reunion with The Source, with God. At the same time, the machines' path is toward reunion with another God, the human beings who created them. They are each other's path to the divine. As the Oracle said, the only way forward is together.

Apocryphe

  

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Scientheist,

I read the links and I have some questions. You said :

Quote:

Every program is created in the source and every program unites with the source when it has lived up to its purpose.


But we see that Sati was created by other programs (Rama and Kamala) and she's not the first one, Rama said that his wife was creating other programs too. The Oracle creates cookies saying that even them need love. It looks to me that not all the programs are coming directly from the source.
The source create programs, wich create other programs, etc. Hence the fractal code, representing their hierarchy in fact. Btw, that's how neural networks work and the machines world is definitly a neural network.

The One is created directly in the source, but it does not mean that every program was created in the source.

Quote:

All the programs (including machine souls) in the real world are connected and act for the welfare of their kind.


Would it not be more logical to assume that squiddies are only remote-controlled bodies ? I mean, we keep seeing machines's social organistaion as similar to ours. Don't forget that machines, unlike us, can build their own bodies, so why would they risk their lives if they can simply control at distance the mechanical body ?.
Notice that squiddies are permanently connected to the source (since Neo reached the source through them), wich is kind of proving that they're remotly controlled.

Quote:

Source is just like an Ocean, its where the programs are born and die. It does'nt do all the commanding stuff.


Not directly, but the Source create programs so that they think that they have free will while, in fact, they'll do their job without (most often) realizing that they're doing exactly what the system awaits from them. I guess that even the Oracle is doing what the Source wants, but without realizing it. As the Merovingian said, choice is an illusion and that works for machines too.

Quote:

Neo landing up in Mobil Ave:

Oracle : You should be dead, but apparently you weren't ready for that, either.

Neo was'nt able to handle the terrible power of the source. Its too much for him. So his mind seperated from his body and landed up in Mobil Ave accidentally. (No changes in this part)


What about this : Neo connected to the source through the sentinels ("that's what you felt when you touched these sentinels") and he collapsed when he destroyed these sentinels (since he cut the link, just like when you unplug someone brutally). It should have killed him, and thus sending the program "One" back to the source but the "One" could not leave because of the love Neo felt for Trinity (Rama (talking about love) : "Then perhaps the reason you're here is not so different from the reason I'm here").

Quote:

Sentinel going through Neo :

Like I said earlier, I need to watch every frames to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. But at this point, the mind-split theory is logical. Neo "absorbed" sentinel's program and force pushed the machine out of the ship.


Notice that the mechanical body of the sentinel is still there, motionless. The orange-code is obviously a representation of the data running through the machine, or else how would you explain that Smith still has glasses and all while he's in Bane ? So the orange code is not 100% conforming to the reality, it is just a software representation of the world.

From that, we can deduce that the Sentinel tried to hurt Neo the same way that he was hurting them.

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