»Escaping the system«

Oh thanks Starbuck. I didn't understand what Apoc was trying to say. Very good timeline Azar. That is what I believe as well. Where the problem comes is that whether we all think that Smith's anomolous behavior occurred in every version. That is where the opinions start to diverge.

Hey, I've got an Animatrix question. Are any of the agents that appear in the Animatrix Short Stories or in "Enter the Matrix" identified? If the Agents that are chasing the Kid are Brown and Jones, then we can settle the debate on why (or if) they were deleted.

Hmm....they are not given names in the films itself. Maybe the credits. Someone who owns Animatrix will have to confirm. Also, I just recalled, weren't there more than 3 agents following the Kid?

I doubt it would be in the credits, they don't talk in that episode, do they?

Dont think so.

So, the world may never know....terrible.

I don't see why there would only be three Agents in the Matrix... I'd say that there are many (although what is an Agent? if you mean simply the authority program that dresses like one...), they only travel in three's because that is more acceptable to their captors; there are probably different kinds of Agents all over the place (eg: other countries?). Yes, it would be very succesful for, say, fifty Agents to chase a single rebel, the risk of alerting the population grows larger; anyhow, it is better if the police/FBI/whatever are involved in the cases, because it helps the humans think that they are in control of things rather than a mysterious unknown force...
I know that you weren't talking about my point right now, but in discussion here, wasn't it?

Good point. Maybe there's a certain number of agents for one country. But then again, some say that the Matrix is one big mega-city.

Considering the amount of ships the humans possess, I'm pretty sure it would take more than three Agents to hande the situation (along with the regular exile control), though they are very capable. The mega-city point is always a good one too, and I haven't really made up my mind on that one yet...

I am pretty sure the Megacity does not exist alone. it wouldn't make sense - cities as we know them cannot really exist in isolation, cities are "supported" by agriculture and industry from elsewhere and trade with other cities. Thats how it is at the end of the 21st century anyway and thats what the matrix verision 6 is based upon.

Perhaps you are saying that the Megacity is the only city where those pugged into the matirx think they live and that those elsewhere are only "programs"? This doesnt really make sense either becasue what if someone from the city makes the choice to move to the countryside?

Besides - the animatrix series shows cities which are outside of Megacity - e.g. Japan.

This Mega City discussion probably deserves its own thread, it's an interesting idea.

There would not necessarily be any need for real interaction with other cities. Simulated interaction would probably suffice. The only problem would be people who would want to leave the city. The machines would have to actively dissuade people from wanting to travel by messing with their minds somehow. This is actually illustrated in the movie "Dark City" if you want to see how this might be done.

My other problem is that the Merovingian's Chatteau is outside of the city in the Mountains. And I cant remember the exact number, but Link says to Neo that it is 400 miles North of the city (Right?). So there has to be some stuff outside of the Mega City.

They also try and dissuade Jim Carey from leaving town in the Trueman Show - and he rejected his matrix!

I was just about to say that about The Truman Show. I loved that movie.

Anyway, the city was 500 miles due south from the mountains.

I agree that it would make no sense completely to have a mega city. Factors like conditions in countries outside the US, other types of governments, other languages and cultures are all part of the human experience. That this would all not be in the Matrix seems weird.

But then there is evidence for it being a mega city. I myself saw signs of `The City' everywhere when I watched the original Matrix recently. But maybe the directors didn't want to give the city a name so it could be any city the audience wanted.

Then again people say that there are lines in the movies like `in the highway, in the mountains' which means there is only 1 highway and 1 set of mountains and 1 city. But this could also mean that it is the 1 highway IN THAT CITY. Dont know....

When Neo goes to see Seraph, I first thought it was in some Oriental city but it turned out to be in the Chinatown part of the city. But then I realized, in Beyond, they are definitely in another city. Also in the comic Goliath, the guy lives in London. But then can we really trust the comic writers and anime writers?

Thoguhts? Anyone wanna start a new post? Bachsoffice?

How do you know Neo was in ChinaTown and not an oriental city? (I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't know...)

Someone showed it to me on the transcript.

Sorry for my late reply...

Starbuck wrote:

The first question is are there more than three agents? I dont think there are.

Well, I think there might be more than three agents. The purpose of the agents is to ensure stabillity throughout the matrix. In "Beyond", we saw people accidentally discovering a glitch in the matrix. The agents had to handle them. That is, the agents must constantly monitor any abnormal activity of 6 billion people living inside the matrix. So I dont think just three agents will suffice. But for the sake of discussion, we'll assume that there are only three agents.

Starbuck wrote:

So did agent brown and jones get deleted. I would say yes.

Ok, thats my opinion too...

Starbuck wrote:

It freaked out Jones and Brown and they ran. Because of this they were deleted and replaced.*

Ok, this means that the agents are deleted and REPLACED with a better agent program. This also implies that the program can be totally replaced with a new program rather injecting an "upgrade code". We dont know for sure whether we can inject upgrade code, but what we agree upon is that the agents are REPLACED.

Starbuck wrote:

When the matrix is "reloaded" it isnt rebooted. it simply experiences an inplace upgrade. so none of the elements of the matrix itself are changed including the agents. In fact the agents arent even part of the matrix. they are independant programs that can move in and out of any software still hardwired to the system. It would make no sense to just delete them and nothing else

What abt this quote :

Neo: And why would a program be deleted?

The Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it - happens all the time

According to your theory (*), the programs can be deleted and REPLACED. As we know, the programs are getting better and better and are constantly evolving. Presumably, the agents must be the lowest in the hierarchy of programs. (ie) The system just needs an agent, it does not need a specific Smith or Brown. (But there are important programs which the system would'nt want to get rid of, like Oracle and Architect etc.)

The agent programs can be REPLACED with a better program. So why would the machines want to keep a 600 year old obsolete program ? (600 - rough assumption of the age of the stable matrix). The "upgrade" agents fought better than M1-Smith. (Smith was'nt so strong in M1). So the upgrade agents are much better than Smith,Brown and Jones. Do u think the machines would keep an ageing program for no reason when it can simply REPLACE it with a better program ?

Starbuck wrote:

the agents are aware of the Zion system of control but have no interaction with it because - THAT IS NOT THEIR PURPOSE!

Do u remember the scene when Smith, Brown and Jones ordered a sentinel attack on Neb ? How do u explain that ? If the agents are really aware of Zion being a control and they simply being "scare crows", would they have ordered the attack ?

Agent Smith: Never send a human to do a machine's job.
Agent Brown: If indeed the insider has failed, they'll sever the connection as soon as possible, unless...
Agent Jones: They're dead, in either case...
Agent Smith: We have no choice but to continue as planned. Deploy the sentinels. Immediately.

We implies that all the three planned it together (not just Smith) Now why would they (plural) order a strike when they have realized that Zion is just a control ?

Starbuck wrote:

So he can be free of his purpose which he is beginning to resent and hate.

How do u explain this one :

Agent Smith: Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell. If there is such a thing. I feel.. saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it, it's repulsive. I must get out of here*. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand?** I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You are going to tell me or you are going to die.

He said he wanted to get out of the matrix ? He never said that he wanted to die, he only said that he wanted to get out. How do u explain * and ** ?

Starbuck wrote:

I dont think he as thought that far ahead. All he knows is that he wants to live and he doenst want to be bound by his purpose in the matrix.

This is exactly what I meant for "we are here because we are not free". The agents are DELETED when they have served their purpose. If agents are not aware of the nature of Zion, then he cannot be aware of previous matrices. That is, he did not exist in previous matrices.

Starbuck wrote:

Smith does not have the revelation that the purpose for all life is to end until M3.

Smith learned that from Neo, presumably at the end of M1 when he got destroyed. So I'd say that he knew that "purpose" and started acting on that from the begining of M2.

Starbuck wrote:

In M2 it is simply to destroy Neo.

Not necessarily. Smith was on a rampage and he was cloning everyone he saw. So I'd say that Smith has started acting on his new "purpose"

Starbuck wrote:

When he realizes his true purpose to join with Neo

Is it the balancing theory ? ( x + (-x) = 0 ) ? (I've different theory for Smith's deletion...)

Apocryphe wrote:

His only hope of escaping is to destroy 01 and the matrix and zion

If Smith destroys Zion, then that will lead to the destruction of matrix. If matrix is destroyed then he'll be destroyed too. Thats contradictory to "I must get out of here". So my conclusion is that he was not aware of the fact that Zion is a part of the control. He thought that the war between Zion and machines is real (we thought the same when we watched M1 for the first time, did'nt we ?)

Smith said that he wanted to get out of the Matrix, and he said that by destroying Zion, this could be acheived, but Smith is the law, he knows what happens when a program isn't required anymore. Perhaps suicidal isn't the right word for it, but I think that the other two Agents are simply there to fulfill their purpose, wereas Smith is desperate and angry, so while a normal Agents deletion could be called fate, I consider Smiths to be suicide.
By the way, why would he assume that destroying Zion would set him free? he assumes that there would be no more human rebels, but Agents also seem to enforce the rebel programs too (the exiles), so Smith would have to stay...