»What did the Oracle steal?«

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The Oracle's appearance had already changed by the time Neo and crew stole The Keymaker from The Merovingian. It all happened because the Rama-Kandra sold The Oracle's code (or shell) to The Merovingian., and because she made the decision to help guide Neo.

Oscar, she lost her shell after telling Neo to take the keymaker, but before the keymaker was stolen, right? Maybe it was enough that she told Neo to do this, for Merv to get angry.

or do you think that Merv had another reason to want Neo to fail?

OR. . .all the lines that refer to guiding Neo could be read in another way. It's possible that the Oracle needed Sati to help guide Neo. Perhaps the choice she's referring to is to save Sati so that she can help Neo in the Train Station. After his talk with Sati and Rama in the Train Station, he goes into meditation and comes out having made his decision to go to 01. This would explain why Sati is so important to the human world and machine world. In this case, it's up in the air what the Oracle stole that angered Merv (although it could still be the keymaker).

Merv could also be talking about Seraph.

Merovingian: What in the hell? *laughs* I don't believe this.

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Merovingian: *to the DJ* Hey. Hey! *to Seraph* The prodigal child returns. L'ange sans ailes (Trans: The angel without wings). Are you here for the bounty, Seraph? . . . Merovingian: *laughs* Quelle bonne surprise, n'est pas? (Trans: What a fine surprise, isn't it?) Who could've guessed we'd all be seeing each other so soon after our last meeting? A fate too kind. And since you, my little Judas, have brought them here, I can only surmise that the fortune teller has found herself another shell? Disappointing, but not unexpected. I do hope, however, she has the good manners to learn her lesson, and to remember that there is no action without consequence. And if you take something from me you will pay the price.

This means Seraph was with Merv before he started to protect The Oracle.

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INT. Oracle's kitchen (Matrix). The Oracle is sitting in the shadows by a table. Her face is concealed by darkness, as is the rest of the house, save for the starlight coming in from the windows. She appears to have just set a fresh cigarette in the ashtray on the table with her frail hand. Seraph enters the kitchen without a sound. ORACLE: Thank you for coming so quickly. SERAPH. You have no need to thank me. I am forever indebted to you. ORACLE: It is now I that needs your help.

Why is Seraph indebted with The Oracle?
Is it because she saved him from being deleted?
Or did she save him from The Merovingian?

So, what I'm saying is that when Merv said that The Oracle had to pay a price for taking something from him, he could also mean Seraph, not only The Keymaker.

We've been mentioning this stuff in other threads. It makes sense to say that Seraph used to work for the merovingian and now works for the oracle. It also seems fair to suggest that he is probably indebted to the oracle cause she got him away from the merovingian (that's more questionable- but it makes sense)

We've also been suggesting that seraph, in religious symbolism terms, represents the angel who guards the tree of life.

I think there are three key lines in determining what it was the Oracle stole from the Merovingian that caused him to go after her termination codes:

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ORACLE: The Merovingian warned me that if I made a certain choice, it would cost me. He is, among other things, a man of his word. NIOBE: What was the choice? ORACLE: The same one that you yourself will have to make: The choice to help Neo or not.

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Merovingian: . . .I can only surmise that the fortune teller has found herself another shell? Disappointing, but not unexpected. I do hope, however, she has the good manners to learn her lesson, and to remember that there is no action without consequence. And if you take something from me you will pay the price.

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Trinity: What happened? Oracle: I made a choice, and that choice cost me more than I wanted it to. Morpheus: What choice? Oracle: To help you to guide Neo.

Twice, she says that she lost her old shell due to her choice to help Neo. And Merv says that she lost her shell because she stole something from him. So the logic follows that the Oracle lost her shell because she stole something to help Neo. Which would have to be the Keymaker. Because he fits the criteria. Seraph isn't there to guide Neo. And Sati isn't stolen, it's openly planned that she is to stay with the Oracle after Merv smuggles her. So, in this line of thought, it would have to be the keymaker. BUT in the video game, the Oracle loses her shell before the keymaker get's stolen. For which I have provided a couple of pretty weak explanations.

However, I'm starting to lean toward another line of thought. The choice to help guide Neo is to allow her shell to be terminated in order to save Sati to help guide Neo. In this line of thought, the choice she refers to, and the choice that Merv refers to are reffering to different events. The choice that the Oracle refers to is to save Sati. The choice that Merv refers to would be a past wrong, possibly, as oscargabrielp says, her stealing away Seraph. This line of thought makes more sense of the timeline. It's not as neat as the "keymaker" theory but the "keymaker" theory has that big flaw (which can be argued around, but it takes a stretch). Anyway, this theory helps to explain the importance of Sati (I think Sati is integral in guiding Neo in his decision to go to 01) and I think it helps to amplify the sacrifice that the Oracle to help Neo. I don't like this theory so much because it takes a lot of guessing and assuming to get there, but it doesn't have any big holes (I don't think so, at least). Anybody see any?

The Keymaker is mine and I see no reason why I should give him up. No reason at all -Merv - I like the Keymaker the best because it's more logical and theory is less messy compair to the other options.

I don't believe Seraph was ever exile as he always had his purpose of protecting what matters most and that is the machine god and machine's interest.

Everyone knows the Oracle. I consulted with her before I met with the Frenchman. She promised she would look after Sati after we said goodbye. -Rama-kandra -Sati was an arrangement between Merv and the oracle and was never stolen

Yes, I agree with your previous post on Sati, but I would like to add that it was actually the whole Indian family (Rama-Kandra, Kamala, and Sati) that influenced his decision to go to the Machine City. They made Neo realize that machines can also be good, and be similar in humans in many ways. He discovered that they also had feelings, and good ones.

That influenced a lot in his decision, because he realized that they were so similar, that his peace bargain might actually work.

Although the arrangement was made for Sati to stay with the Oracle. However, only Merv can smuggle a program from the machine world to the matrix. In return for smuggling sati back inside, Rama sold the codes, so Merv can delete the oracle. The attempted assination failed, and hence the new shell. The machine dispatched Seraph to protect the oracle, because she is a key in the control system to guide the one to the source. The Merv is after the oracle because he was pissed at her for stealing the Keymakers.

But the timing is all wrong. Like oscar said, the Oracle loses her shell before the keymaker gets stolen. My explanation to that was that Merv was pissed that the Oracle had told Neo to steal the keymaker, but how would he know what the Oracle told him before Neo got there. That's the stretch I'm talking about, that and that it sems like an overreaction until the keymaker actually gets stolen.

Also, the Oracle calls Seraph to protect her even before she tells Neo to get the keymaker. so if it's stealing the keymaker that pisses off Merv, than the Oracle shouldn't have been in danger yet.

I still could go either way on the theories, but I'm trying to point out flaws in the keymaker theory.

And, yes, I agree that Sati was never stolen. My argument was that, she was the subject of the choice the Oracle made that made her lose her shell. However, the object she stole could have been anything else.

Gloria Foster, the old oracle was still in Reloaded, and the keymaker was stolen in reloaded.

We didn't see the new oracle (shell) until revolution M3.

So are you guys telling me , that the oracle lost her shell before or during Reloaded movie. If she lost her shell, why is the appearance still the same? Gloria Foster played the oracle in Reloaded

Timeline:

Reloaded movie
Original oracle was there (original shell)
1. Keymaker was stolen

On to Revolution:
2. We see new oracle ( new shell)

I don't understand why you say the timing is screwy. It makes perfect sense. Please explain..

First off, one of the main reasons The Oracle changed her appearance was because the original Oracle, Gloria Foster died before she filmed her scenes for Revolutions.

Second, there is a time space between her last appearance in Reloaded (before Burly Brawl) and the Keymaker being stolen away from The Merovingian.

I highly recommend that you play "Enter The Matrix", or at least watch the cutscenes, since a lot is explained there. I like to think that it's the "Deleted Scenes" from "The Matrix Reloaded".

Oscar, Yes, I've been there and done that with ETM game. So tell me why the Keymaker is not logical again? If not Keymaker , then who?

In Enter The Matrix (I believe it is when you play as Ghost) the oracle claims that she is changed because she made a descision to help a little girl. Hence the reason she changed who she is was to save Sati.

Someone mentioned that the wachowski brothers were thinking of editing some of the footage from ETM into the Matrix Reloaded movie as part of a double-DVD of both M2 and M3. Probably just rumour, but it would help to make the movies more comprehensible.

Fatpie42 wrote:

In Enter The Matrix (I believe it is when you play as Ghost) the oracle claims that she is changed because she made a descision to help a little girl. Hence the reason she changed who she is was to save Sati. Someone mentioned that the wachowski brothers were thinking of editing some of the footage from ETM into the Matrix Reloaded movie as part of a double-DVD of both M2 and M3. Probably just rumour, but it would help to make the movies more comprehensible.

no she doesnt...get your facts right mate...

she says that the reason she is changed is because 2 programmes she trusted(rahma kandra and his wife)sold the termination codes to the merovingian...THEY did it for sati...not the oracle...

Yes, but she also says that she knew that the two programs were going to sell her out (Rama and Kamala), but she allows it anyway. That was the choice, to let it happen because Sati is important (to help guide Neo).