»Humans/Computers«

First of all, this is just a random collection of thoughts. It may or may not have any shred of truth to it at all, but I've seen M3 once and the other 2 parts of the trilogy and I am very thoroughly in love with every bit, every piece, every tiny little detail of this movie and all the thoughts that go into it. I have spent an immeasureable amount of time analyzing scenes, comparing them to my personal experiences and my interpretations of those experiences, and perhaps a little less time than I would like to comparing the movies to other people's experience. I recently discovered that others have opinions and interprettations of the movies (and their own personal experiences) that I value VERY much. Others, not so much. All about choice...Like I've always believed to be one of the coolest phrases: "It's all in how you look at it."

Now on to the reason I'm here, typing at this particular point in time. The purpose of this post is to try to share a bit of thought that I had regarding the comparrison of humans to computers. I've heard somewhere (not sure where, just one of those random stats/figures that stuck in my head) that the average human uses roughly 10% of their brain. Most of the time, in my opinion, they aren't even using 100% of that little 10%

If this is true...how is it possible for someone in the "real world" to jack in to the matrix and use their brains as a hard drive? Understandably, it takes time to fill up one's memory banks (brain). People go through training for years to learn specific things (for example, how to pilot a helicopter), but in the movie, this entire training can be done almost instantaniously. In a matter of weeks, (at the rate Neo was learning) one could store every bit of human knowledge ever ammassed on their own brain and have immediate access to it whenever they needed it?

This doesn't seem possible, but perhaps there are circumstances I am unaware of. I'm always very open minded, willing to listen to anyone's opinion, but there is the matter of the transfer of information. I like to think of it this way:

A computer can download, say, a Matrix Revolutions movie Trailer (or any kind of information). The place where this information is being transferred to is a hard drive. Between the source of the information (say Warner Bros. website), and the place that it's going to (the computer's hard drive) is a connection. Say it's a 56k dial up connection. To download a big ol' movie trailer like that would take up quite a bit of time. But, if you were to upgrade your connection to the source, say, upgrade to broadband for faster data transfer, it would take far less time.

In the movie, this is exactly what happens every time someone plugs into the matrix...That big huge needle lookin' cable that they JAM into the skull of someone jacking in is a lot like your cable company comin' over and JAMMING a bigger, thicker plug right into your computer. But, if the average person only uses 10% of their brain, it can't be ONLY because they can't amass the knowledge fast enought to fill it up.

Human beings take in knowledge, and sometimes they forget things. With age, this happens often. You try and you try to remember something. You know it's there. You KNOW it's there! But for the life of you, you just can't seem to remember it exactly! Perhaps the same is true with the Matrix trilogy? Say Trinity were on top of a semi hauling motorcycles and she wanted to hotwire one. So she calls up her operator, asks for a program on how to hotwire the bike, hotwires the bike and goes on her merry way. Imagine then, like 5 years later, that she wanted to hot wire a bike again. Would the information still be there? Would she still be able to remember the information, even if it was there, taking into account that in 5 years, with a gigantic spike goin into the back of her head to transfer MASSIVE amounts of data, she could have learned literally BILLIONS of things in that time? Would she still remember the trick to hot wiring a bike?

I think that if there were to be some sort of technological advance that would allow a faster transfer of data, it might be unreliable over long periods of time. Might have to upgrade a few more things before being able to handle such a huge transfer (and storage) of data...

Just a random couple of thoughts, like I said earlier. Lemme know what you guys think. Definately lookin for the input. In the meantime, I'm gonna go see what other topics I can cover. (would you believe I never even thought to check a forum for this kind of stuff? now that I have, I had to call in sick to work just to spend 8 hours on this forum...amazing...I'm already hooked )

Dweeb

yeah what you're saying makes a whole lot of sense. The main reason it makes sens is because you're not trying to assume things. You're just saying it how you see it and what it meant to you.

i'd like to throw out some random thoughts too. The human brain is made up of chemicals, tissues and such. machines hard drives are made up of chemicals copper and metals and such. But as we all know all chemicals and molecules are made up of the same atoms that make up the earth and the universe. If a machine had AI, if AI is possible for us to create....what would make a machine any different from a human? The only difference would be the chemical compounds that make up there structure and physical bodies.

The human body responds to the brain that sends electrical signals to it. A computer responds by electrical signals sent to it....what is so different? If a machine had AI (which i think isn't really possible) then it wouldn't be much different from a human being the only difference would be it's physical structure. The undenying fact would be that it can control the molecules that create it's body, and would be able to send electrical signals to it...exactly what we do with our bodies.

All of the human body parts are connected to the brain by veigns and nerves. It's how we move our hands and feet and such if that connection is cut we are powerless to move them. All of the machines and the Matrix is connected to the Source, making the source the big brain... but just cuz it's not made up of tissues and proteins just like our brain doesn't mean it's not a brain. The only thing that makes it a brain is it's function, and it's function is not all too different from our brain...our source of power and control to our bodies.

I'm not assuming anything about the movie with this post i'm just throwing out random thoughts.

Intelligence is intelligence...it's the only thing that makes us human. Without intelligence we are exactly what a dog or a computer would be. If a machine had intelligence just like ours...it would be human. That's the only thing that makes a being human is it's intelligence if the intelligence of anything has the same capacity as yours it's human.

If you saw a human body but it only reacted to a user putting input into it, and by programs being inserted into it...what would make it any difference from a computer, only it's structure. Just because we chose the molecular compounds that we use in machines... copper wires, chips, silicon we call it a machine. but what if we can make a machine with proteins, tissue the same molecules that human is made of but still made it the same shape and structure of a PC...then sent electrial signals to it and made it do exactly the same things a computer made up of silicon, and metals, and copper and fiber do...would we still call it a machine? Of course we would. But what if we gave it intelligence...as scary as it sounds....a PC on top of your desk that had the same material as a brain, if you cut it it bled, it would able to talk, converse with you, think about thinks, just like smith and the oracle, and the architect do....would it still be a machine, with human intelligence, or a human brain with a PC structure?

Think about when Neo and Smith are in the Matrix. What makes them different...nothing. They are exactly the same...because they are both intelligence. When Neo and Smith are fighting in the last battle...don't think human vs machine...think intelligence vs intelligence. Neo can fly, Smith can fly, Neo has super strength, Smith has super strenght. Neo has clothes, Smith has clothes. Neo has eyes all that good stuff, so does Smith, they both bleed. What is apparent to Neo is electrical signals interpreted by his brain, and what is apparent to Smith is electrical signals interpreted by his brain. Just because Smith's brain isn't made up of protein tissues doesn't mean it's not a brain..because it's function is exactly the same as that of a brain. A name is just a name to title a function, it doesn't matter what that which is named is made of, as long as it has the same function and purpose.

A chair made of wood, a chair made of metal, a chair made of cotton....the fact is that it's a chair, what do you do with it, you sit in it. If your hand was made of metal...would it mean that it's not a hand anymore? You see people with mechanical legs....but they can still move them and walk on them...the purpose is still the same, so you will still call it a leg, even it it's a *metal* leg, it's still a leg. A *metal* human, it's still a human, even if it's body and brain ar made of metals instead of proteins...wouldn't it still be a human because it's purpose is the same..they're over all purpose is the same isn't it?

Black man, white man, azian man....different apperances....different textures of hair...different structures of eyes, lips, and nose...but they all do the same thing they all have the same function...wouldn't you still call all of them human? They see they hear, they touch, the perceive, the think, the rest, they feel pain...wouldn't they all be the same because they all have the same functions?

This is what we must think about a machine with AI... it's function is the same as a human..it can think, smell, touch, see, fear....why won't we call it human?

Hehe...this forum's about the matrix movie. Here we are discussing the meaning of life.

Quote:

Intelligence is intelligence...it's the only thing that makes us human. Without intelligence we are exactly what a dog or a computer would be. If a machine had intelligence just like ours...it would be human. That's the only thing that makes a being human is it's intelligence if the intelligence of anything has the same capacity as yours it's human.

That is your opinion. I'm not knocking it, I'm not agreeing with it, and I'm not disagreeing with it. I would like to point out though, that other people have opinions about exactly what makes a human...human. Some people believe in souls, some people believe that it's your heart that makes you human, others believe it's all in your consciousness and still others believe that life is simply your experiences....whatever you believe your definition of life to be, so shall it be. Simple as that.

This is just a post of open-mindedness.

i believe that humans have a soul too, spirit, heart all of that. But remember this is a sci-fi movie....AI is impossible, a machine cannot have free will. Here's a movie that says that AI is possible, in that the humans have already played God. So the thought of machines being just like humans isn't out of the window for me.

Nothing is impossible, just highly improbable.

It's only impossible until it's done.

Truth is only truth until it's proven false, why do you think they call them "theories?"

Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't ever happen.

Gotta be open minded =]

The machines played God in the movie too....they created Neo, i only accept things as they are as the concepts in the movie.

i was never defining life... i was just saying what makes the humans intelligence in the movie so different for Machine intelligence.... you gotta be open minded don't you?

Who created what? Did the machines CREATE Neo? No...Neo was created the same way every other human was created...He is, after all, still, only human. They may have artificially insemminated whoever his mother was or whatever, but I don't think that they created him...I may be wrong, who knows...I just think that Neo is special because of his willingness to be open minded to new possibilities, new choices. Also, having enough character to understand the choices and make the right ones, even if only aware of them at a near unconscious level.

That's my take

Neo wasn't created. But he was designed like a machine. I'm telling you the only difference between humans and machines in the movie is their structure. That's what the Wachowski's are trying to say. Remember when the machines wanted to be treated fairly and equally?

the Brain can store memory, it can access it, it can process information. This is exactly what a computer does. So Machines have found a way to use humans in that same way. How do you think Smith downlaoded himself into Bane?

i can answer every one of these questions and theories:

It's the future.. anything's possible






... I really kill the neuron party, don't I?

I would post my opinion tonite, but I'm too lazy/tired... but tomorrow after work I will return

First of all the basics. What is the source.

The source is the machine mainframe. This is what the oricle tells neo. A mainframe is a central processing Unit (CPU). This CPU is the consious of the machines. The machine consious is different to that of a humans consious. It is universal. It runs through everything connected to the machines. The machines think as a whole, not as individuals. The arcitect and the Oricle are programs created by the souce to run as part of the system.

When people are plugged into the matrix, their brains exchange nueral processes with that of the machine processes.

After experimenting on the human brain the machines learned how they could connect the human brain to their brain (mainframe) to use as power for the matrix. (this was in 2nd renaissance)

Therefore the thoughts and processes in the human brain can interchangable with that of the machines. (how else can humans live inside a digital world without exchanging neural (analog) processes with that digital system?)

Neo when hooked up to the matrix is part of that digital world. His real world consious is changed into digital consiousness.

Neos life is the result of an anomaly caused by choice inside the matrix. "the anomaly is systemic - creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations." - Arcitect.

Because of an anomaly inside the matrix, Neo has change things which no one else can.

Him being "the one" is just the system controlling Neo, who threatens the system, with the "prophecy"

This leads me nicely to my next point. What is the matrix? The matrix is a digital world made with code. The Matrix isn't a program though. Its always changing on how its inhabitants change it. It runs from the machine mainframe. The matrix code is powered by the processes of the machine mainframe (source). This source runs under everything of the machine world. It is the fundimental part of machine awareness.

Ok thats the basics out of the way!

"The power of the one leads back to the source" - Oricle.

When meeting with the arcitect, Neo chooses to break from the control of the machines. He is now out of the system of control of the machines. This leaves the machines in a bit of a pickle because as the arciect sais - "that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself". Neo is no unchecked. Out of the wrelm of a prophecy.

Neos power is now allowed to grow.

When entering back into the matrix after his encounter with the arcitect, Neo is focused on one thing. Saving Trinity. He has never focused this hard ever before on bending the rules of the matrix to fly faster than he ever has. He needs to get to trinity in time. Because of this extreme focus, Neo reaches the source. Neo has focused so hard that he has reached the source (which processes the matrix code obviously because the matrix runs from the machine mainframe).

Neo has now reached his true potential. He has discovered that he he can not only change the matrix, but can also change the processes which run this code (the source). This is how Neo reaches Trinity in time.

Neos Mental processes are now running through the machine processes because both have met. Neo touches the consious of the machines. This means that his processes will now be running through the machine processes. Part of Neo is now inside the source. A mental process of Neo runs through the source. Part of his awareness is incapsulated in the machine consious.

This is where the wachowski brothers lead to the tru potential of the matrix idea.

When Neo stops the sentinals, and sees the golden code. He is mearly interacting with his other part of his awareness. All he has to do is think about stopping them and they stop, because the part of him running through the source can "hack" and change parts of it.

Neo has now, to an extent become psyic. He has a 6th sence. He has a split awareness. This is the true potential of having an idea of machine and human consious connected to each other.


As for Neo arriving at Mobile Ave, the part of him running through the machines was sent there. Neo should of died when stopping the sentinals but he wasn't ready. The machines allow him to live. They send the part of his awareness which runs through the source to Mobile ave. This is now Neos aware state. As aposed to his unconsious state in the real world.

When the trainman sais "so thats what they wanted" He is referring to How the machines actually need Neo to destroy smith. Thats why they saved him when he "should of been dead".

This is my complete theory on the Matrix. I have spent a long time analyising the movies and feel that this is the clearest explination for many of the things that happen in the movies. The Wachowski brothers are geniuses and have given me a very interesting insight to what reality is and the true potential of the human mind through awsome story line ( not to forget the awsome fight scenes and strong religious symbolism portrayed throughout the various mediums)

I would really like to hear what you guys think of this theory cause it took me a long time to compile!

This is kinda a different idea to the forum post but it ties in with humans and machines being connected.. Ive poseted it on a couple of forums

Quote:

As for Neo arriving at Mobile Ave, the part of him running through the machines was sent there. Neo should of died when stopping the sentinals but he wasn't ready. The machines allow him to live. They send the part of his awareness which runs through the source to Mobile ave. This is now Neos aware state. As aposed to his unconsious state in the real world. When the trainman sais "so thats what they wanted" He is referring to How the machines actually need Neo to destroy smith. Thats why they saved him when he "should of been dead".

When Neo arrives at Mobile Ave., I thought the reasoning behind it was more of an informational overload kinda thing...like he surprised even himself. The oracle says, "we can't see past the choices we don't understand." I don't think Neo knew that he was capable of destroying the machines like that in the real world, so he went to the train station....either that or he could be considered an exile for not obeying the rules of the real world and destroying sentinels like that...not sure exactly...

When the train man says, "so that's what they wanted," I thought that he was talking about what Trinity, Morpheus, and Seraph wanted, as they had just gotten done chasing the trainman, but didn't catch him...

Ask the W. brothers tho, I'm sure they'd know

Random thoughts from my head now. This is not really related to the Matrix so please skip this post now if your not intrested. I don't want to waste anyones time with my mind ramblings

If all of you truly belive that human life is intelligence and it could be made from any raw materials desired why couldn't we be another races machines?

A machine created to for labor and service (kinda like 2R on the animatrix) however because we were given the ablity to reproduce ourselves internally we began to grow out of control not to mention the fact that we could adapt to anything that was thrown at us.... basically we could eventually survive anything. So instead of complete destruction the race that created us either A stranded us here on earth or b they were an earth based race. But thier technology was biological and overtime it just degraded into vitual nothingness then we would have basically no record of what they did or how they did it.

Let me know what you think.

Xhadow wrote:

If all of you truly belive that human life is intelligence and it could be made from any raw materials desired why couldn't we be another races machines?

We are...
its not what we were designed for but its what we have become.

i agree with almost all of what i understand of your post and am impressed by it. you are the only person that i have come across in here that makes a serious comparison of the matrix movie and our 'real' world.

this sounds like a weird question and feel free to question my sanity but what would you do if your analogy was an accurate reflection of the world we live in? then again, what could we do? you have an analytical eye but i think you should meditate or something. do what it takes to make all 6 of your senses as sensitive as posible and i guarentee you WILL be astonished by what you see in the world around you and in the behavioural patterns of those around you. visit the 'rabbit hole' forum if you have time, id be interested to know what you think.
PEACE.

Dweeb wrote:

I've heard somewhere (not sure where, just one of those random stats/figures that stuck in my head) that the average human uses roughly 10% of their brain... ...Lemme know what you guys think. Dweeb

Yeah, I wish I knew the origin of the quote and what they have to support it. It's been around for years, so maybe it's based on old research dating back to say the 50's - for example how many kids in the 50's understood computers

I've also wondered about the context of it. And how they measured it.

What if 10% was a measure of our ability to recall facts, this would mean of all the things we learn or experience, we only recall 10% of it - Trinity's hotwiring skill gets lost in the other 90%.

I forget a few things, but nine tenths? c'mon that can't be right.

And does that 10% include all the automotive functions like breathing, reflexes and vomitting. And what about general body operation, them legs don't walk themselves.

Who comes up with this stuff. And while I'm at it - Goldfish only have 30 second memories? No way, how do you test it? teach it a card trick

If anyone has any ideas, I'd appreciate any background before writing off my noggin' as 90% Numb.

On the subject of data speed, the biggest draw back is our bodies, another random (sourceless) fact is that we experience hundreds of dreams every night and that each dream lasts a fraction of a second. Hmm, I'm not convinced.

It's true that you can think sentences faster than you can say them, but even thinking sentences you're slowing your mind to accomodate language. Pure thought is dead fast.

I'll be getting one of those Direct Interface ports as soon as they're on the market (unless it's a microsoft product, then I might wait a few years until it's debugged)

ive always wondered that myself. they have all sorts of stats on all sorts of things and no one asks how they know. sayng that. those who believe in the creator will know that man was created in his image and after his likeness. i assume that means that when the creator chooses to MANifest his spirit in to a physical vehicle it will appear complimentary to our image. also, it was He that created and mastered all that we see and exist within so to be created in His likeness must be quite something.

i have heard of people walking through walls, bending spoons, levitating, doing telepathy, telekinisis and all sorts of mind boggling stuff. the chances are very slim that anyone in this forum can do anything more than accidental telepathy evey once in a while but imagine if you had all of the gifts listed above. i bet your brain would still have room for more. then again, its the mind thats infinite. your mind tells your brain what to do like your brain tells your body what to do. i guess its just a case of 'mind over matter'. even so, i think to say we use 10% is a bit too definite a statistic to take seriously, especially when we are talking about the single most complex organ we know of. sorry to go on

Regardless of the actual figure (it could be 10%, could be 2%, could be 98%), I doubt it's validity, myself. With the primitive understanding we have of our own minds...how can we expect to guage it? Nobody knows what "powers" the mind. Nobody knows where the mind is located (hell, could even be outside our bodies, like the minds displayed in the matrix). The point is, for as little as we know about the mind, as little is undiscovered of the mind, how can we accurately guage such a thing? Perhaps we are guaging only a small portion of the mind...the small portion that we are currently capable of comprehending. Leaves even more possibility...and inevitability

Dweeb wrote:

Regardless of the actual figure (it could be 10%, could be 2%, could be 98%), I doubt it's validity, myself. With the primitive understanding we have of our own minds...how can we expect to guage it? Nobody knows what "powers" the mind. Nobody knows where the mind is located (hell, could even be outside our bodies, like the minds displayed in the matrix). The point is, for as little as we know about the mind, as little is undiscovered of the mind, how can we accurately guage such a thing? Perhaps we are guaging only a small portion of the mind...the small portion that we are currently capable of comprehending. Leaves even more possibility...and inevitability

i believe the mind is potentialy infinite. you cant guage it. i am a firm believer that the only one capable of guaging it is the one that created it and that its him that determines its limit (on an individual basis).

when you ask 'where the mind' is i immediately get some mystic picture of the far corners of the universe. but then i thought, space/time are rules of this universe. there are no real rules for the mind other than that which are programmed in to them as it is infact infinite so a quest to find the mind may be something the individual would have to look in themself for (meditation). from my understanding, i think this is what the trilogy is about (among other things of course).