»The symbolism of the Oracle/Trainman«

Are you being dim on purpose? You seem to intentionally miss the point every time I answer you.

Discussion of religion makes sense when talking about the matrix - yes

My religion is irrelevant to discussion of the matrix since (for all I know) the wachowski brothers may not believe in my religion. Looking for a religion that isn't referred to in the matrix would be like looking for a fitness club in a brewery. Completely mad!

So can we discuss gnosticism now? Any questions about that? Or must I keep talking to a brick wall for the next few days?

Fatpie42 wrote:

Are you being dim on purpose? You seem to intentionally miss the point every time I answer you. Discussion of religion makes sense when talking about the matrix - yes My religion is irrelevant to discussion of the matrix since (for all I know) the wachowski brothers may not believe in my religion. Looking for a religion that isn't referred to in the matrix would be like looking for a fitness club in a brewery. Completely mad! So can we discuss gnosticism now? Any questions about that? Or must I keep talking to a brick wall for the next few days?

you are a character

I have repeatedly posted in response to the "discussion" and you, scmia, have repeatedly ignored me. I can only assume this is because you would rather have an argument then an actual discussion. Let me know if you change your mind! =)

Bright Blessings!

~Serenity~

Sedai. How about we get back into the discussion again and see if scmia wants to join in or not? If scmia says something dogmatic and irrelevant we can always ignore it.

Am i right in thinking that you think a traditional view of christianity, as opposed to a gnostic one, cannot fit in with the matrix movies?

Serenity Sedai wrote:

I have repeatedly posted in response to the "discussion" and you, scmia, have repeatedly ignored me. I can only assume this is because you would rather have an argument then an actual discussion. Let me know if you change your mind! =) Bright Blessings! ~Serenity~

What are you talking about they were speaking to me so I responded.

To begin with no one knows for sure which religion is the right one even if there is a RIGHT one, and you cannot say for sure that you are of the blessed and we are of the damned. You say you believe it to be so, there are plenty of others who believe the opposite. The Matrix series of movies does not fit into any one religion. Your guess is as good as anyones as to what each character or event in the movies means or doesn't mean. Only the Wachowski brothers know for sure.

Second. If sex is impure then every single person on this planet is an impure person with impure thoughts. If sex is so impure then why didn't God make us able to reproduce a different way.

Third. Gnostic is a form of Christianity, as is Protestant, Methodist, Catholic, Russian Orthodox etc. Agnostic is a fence sitter, we sit back and dont play favorites. Basically its the non committal religion, you believe what you like and hope it turns out alright.

Fourth. You cannot win a religious argument because you are not divine, you are Human and by definition you do not know the whole turth. So no matter what you say thats all it is talk, its not real evidence of anything.

Fifth. The Bible was written by man, not by God. Even if it was him indirectly things may get lost in translation. Certain scriptures weren't even written while under the influence of the spirit they were just put in because the Catholic church thought it was a good idea to have them there. Two thousand years of mortal corruption has plagued the Catholic church and its leaders. Hypocrisy ran rampant, findings were hidden, rules broken, people killed, all in the name of their faith, and that was BEFORE the other churches broke away. The Bible can no longer be looked to as a source of truth, taken metaphorically it is quite useful, but on a real hard evidential scale it is questionable.

Sixth. Every human being is born with the innate ability to tell good from evil. Whether we want to admit it or not, religion doesnt teach us how to be good, we already know how to be good, religion just teaches us the way everyone else is being good. As proof of this there was a tribe discovered a while back, say 100 years or more, in the South American Rainforest, they had no contact with the outside world in 700 years, they had no religion, and no class structure, they had rudimentary law though. And under their laws it was illegal to commit murder, it was illegal to steal, and it was illegal to rape.

Seventh and Last. Ok I realize this forum is for discussions about the matrix, so I apologize for the previous six rantings on religion in general. In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, Neo is the Christ, Morpheus is either John the Baptist or the angel who told Jesus that he was infact the son of god, Smith is most certainly the incarnation of Satan, maybe not Satan himself, maybe the Antichrist, The Oracle is a little harder to place, I would think that she would be the mother of creation, maybe a tie to mother earth, or more likely Mary Christ's mother. The architect is most definetly God, he may not be the God image we wanted but he is most definetly the representation of God, remember God used to be quite vengeful and violent. The Meravingion and Persephone could be two things, persephone under certain texts is deemed a muse, one of those fanciful creatures that arent quite human and arent quite angel but they give you a lot of great ideas. And the french man himself is definetly closely tied to satan. since he was the first to come to the new matrix world, and was given lordship over it, but this corrupted him and he fell from the good graces of the architect. Or they could be infact linked to adam and eve as the first to be. Trinity is Mary magdeline, Seraph can be placed directly from his name, he is a warrior angel, i cant remember the little girls name but she represents a new beginning, the creation of a new covenant where God is forgiving and friendly. oh and that trainman can be directly linked to the angel of death, who sheperds people from this world into the next (coincidentally if you rearrange Mobil, you get Limbo).

Ok im done, man im long winded

I had grown frustrated with this thread and stopped posting. But I do like your thoughts Tanoth. =) I almost went off on a rant too no worries! haha

and scmia, I never saw your response to my post but all you had to do was scroll to see that I had answered your questions (besides the private message I sent to you ALSO detailing answers to questions you asked) and you continued to ask questions, that I had already answered, of Fatpie42, hence my comment.


Anyways! Tanoth, have you checked out some of the other threads discussing gnosticism and the Matrix? It is very interesting stuff.

Well, there is no doubt that the Matrix trilogy includes Christian elements, I do believe the trilogy is largely inspired by Hinduism, which in itself is syncretist, just like the Matrix trilogy.

Reloaded and Revolutions have some clear parallels to the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. I even read in an interview, that Bernard White, the guy who played Rama Kandra, said the Wachowski Bros. were heavily influenced by the Bhagavad-Gita a Hindu text. At the end, when Neo and Smith fight, the song is right out of the Upanishads, again another Hindu text which glorifies Vishnu, the preserver god. I believe that Smith is both antichrist and Shiva. While Neo is Christ-like as an incarnation of Vishnu.

The Oracle would be Kali, who is the goddess of birth and death, or change. Change is made a big deal in the Matrix trilogy because the Matrix represents heaven, where things don't change, while on earth things do change. The Oracle causes things to change. At the end, when Neo sacrifices himself, he resets the Matrix. It is no coincidence that the Architect starts walking in the park in the Matrix. He is now connected with everyone spiritually and he can walk among them. Before the Matrix was reset with Neo's death, the age was of Kali Yuga, where ignorance and sin run rampant.

The Merovingian has Christian connections obviously, but he also represents Ravana from the Ramayana.

Neo as the 6th incarnation, represents the 6th incarnation of Vishnu, Parashurama, a reluctant warrior who fights the rulers of India (the machines are similar since they rule the humans). When Neo tells Rama Kandra that he knows him, he doesn't just mean he's seen him from the restaurant. He's saying that they are one and the same. Duality plays a big role throughout the trilogy. Smith and Neo are also one and the same. Just like Vishnu and Shiva are one and the same, but their purposes are different: Vishnu's is to preserve while Shiva's is to destroy. Neo's is to preserve, while Smith's is to destroy.


Basically, when Neo sacrifices himself, he's surrendering his Self to be returned back to where it came from, Brahman, which is the Hindu concept of God, from which all living things emanate. it is a supersoul. Know thyself is often repeated throughout the trilogy, in a Hindu context it means know your Atman, your spirit and abandon the illusory perception of the world and return to Godhead.

How can smith possibly be Shiva? He's nihilistic and evil! He is even attempting to prevent people escaping the matrix. Sounds more like Maya than Shiva.

Please explain where I am going wrong?