»The matrix just doesn't make sense...«

Hey...

I raised my points based on scientific reasoning, and I relaxed all my assumptions at the end, even the ones about energy conservation. In one of the later posts, I explicitly said “I’m willing to assume 100% efficiency.”

Unfortunately, the only person who seemed to truly understand my point was DividebyZero. Others partially agreed, but not enough to entirely reject the explanations provided by the movie.

The truth is that the movie, on more than one occasion, brings up the point that the machines are using humans as batteries/source of energy... this in itself is not impossible. BUT, since humans need energy to survive/grow/repair (this is not an assumption), the machines would always get less than what they put it. Again, let’s not forget all the energy the machines spend protecting, and keeping up their crops. UNLESS... the machines have access to a free source of energy that ONLY humans can use, let me explain:

Why do we (humans) farm? Why do we raise crops? Do we not get out less than what we put in? Well... no. Most of the energy going into the system comes from the sun. WE don’t supply the Sun. We don’t have to put in that much energy, compared to what comes out, thanks to the sun. We absorb energy through metabolism (all animals do)... it would be swell if we could get energy any other way, but we can’t, so we eat. Eating makes sense because the Sun produces an amazing amount of energy that we can’t directly use. WE depend, on other life forms to convert the Sun’s energy, into something we can consume. It’s not perfectly efficient, but it works.

Machines are not limited by “metabolism.” They can use just about anything to generate electricity (hydro, geothermal, nuclear).... so there is NO SOURCE of energy that humans can use and machines can’t... Hell, machines can even be built to “metabolize.” (This is not a theory, there are machines that are displayed in science museums that do this.)

And NO you can’t argue that machines would use metabolism themselves but humans are better at it. Humans themselves depend on bacteria and enzymes to get the job done. There’s no reason why machines wouldn’t do the same.

The idea of using humans would be similar to building a geothermal plant that uses more power than it produces. It’s really that simple.

So, the only logical conclusion is that either the machines have another motivation for using humans (but there’s not even the slightest hint about that in the movie).... or that the makers of the movie were hoping you wouldn’t notice... or maybe they didn’t know themselves.

Why would the W.Brothers use such a flawed idea? Well... it fooled you didn’t it?


If you’re interested, feel free to do any further reading on metabolism, thermodynamics, energy conservation, fusion, fission, geothermal.


As for this thread... it turns out that people really don't care if the matrix makes sense or if it doesn't... it's just a movie. I didn't think they made sense and i watched them....

cheers

Dweeb wrote:

And if, say, a machine (that happens to be extremely efficient at processing information) discovered that single way to prove the theory of energy conservation wrong, don't you think they might exploit it? This movie is obviously set sometime in the future...it's a possibility that there have been advances in understanding

OK, so let’s assume this is possible. In that case, the machines could simply turn themselves into perpetual motion machines... they would no longer need ANY source of energy. All the energy they expensed by moving about would be fully recovered under such a system... humans not required.
Of course, energy would still be required to build new machines if some break down... or just for the sake of making new machines... the new machines would have to get their energy from somewhere....

but if we can waive energy conservation then we can unlock the energy by converting the matter contained in a single human body to pure energy... that's a lot of energy. enough to set them for life.

Orbsplateau wrote:

The idea of using humans would be similar to building a geothermal plant that uses more power than it produces. It’s really that simple.

What is your proof behind this statement?


Starbuck

look I think you are taking the technical side a letle too literally. It's like complaining about the problems behind fire breathing dragons. It doesn't matter that a creature that breathes fire would be burning from the inside since it is a mythical creature. The matrix is a modern myth and these silly questions about technicalities are pointless.

The Japanese have come up with a way to make people into batteries, their research has shown that if all the food ingested by a person was converted into electricity it would be enough to power a 100W lightbulb. Unfortunately, the human body requires a significant portion of that power, so the average realistic output would be much less.

Quote:

It's like complaining about the problems behind fire breathing dragons. It doesn't matter that a creature that breathes fire would be burning from the inside since it is a mythical creature

Actually there is a logical explanation behind fire breathing Dragons. Their saliva is highly flamable and they have the ability to ignight it as it is spit from their mouths using thier teeth and upper jaw as a stone and flint.

Now even though this is an explaination for fire breathing dragons does that mean that they can exist. Its possible but probably not in the real world. They are the stuff of legend and sci fi and we enjoy them because they are a product of our imagination.

Is it practical that the machines found a way to turn a human into a battery? Its possible put probably will never happen in the real world. But again it is the stuff of sci fi and a product of our imagination. What if they could do that?

to hell with the science of it. You can never prove that they didnt do it just as I can never prove they did because it DOES NOT EXIST!

Orbsplateau wrote:

So, the only logical conclusion is that either the machines have another motivation for using humans (but there’s not even the slightest hint about that in the movie)....

You state it yourself there so elequantly. There is no hint that the machines use the humans for anything other than a battery. Therefore it is safe to assume that is the intent of the movie and using artistic license and the unlimited posibilties of Sci Fi they came up with a way to do it. You can never disprove a science that does not exist and it is pointless to try.

When you watch Star Trek do you not take warp drive and transporters for granted even though they dont exist and will probalbly never exist. In fact there is no science in this age to support transporter theory.


Just my thoughts.

Starbuck

Ummm... I don’t think there’s anything scientific about fire-breathing dragons. A dragon is a magical being. It’s fantasy, that’s all. It’s not meant to be logical or explained by science, or else there would be nothing magical or supernatural about it.

Anyway.... don’t let a hole in the story get confused with questions about the plausibility of technology. My question is “WHY are the machines using humans?” not “HOW are the machines using humans?”

I’m not saying that it’s possible or impossible for the human body to generate electricity... I doesn't matter.
I’m just saying that there seems to be better ways... even in the world of the Matrix. It’s not like the human body was ever designed to produce electricity... why is it so easy for some of you to accept that our bodies would be good at this? We’re barely efficient at doing things we’ve evolved to do.

The movie itself shows a number of ways to generate electricity. Zion seems to be using geothermal and it produces A LOT of power... enough for 250k people and all its ships, enough for its communication systems, air filtration system, weapons, defences, lighting, waste management, machine building, etc. There’s also mention of “fusion power” in there, so it implies that machines have access to nuclear power... so why would they continue to use humans to generate electricity, given all the trouble that goes along with it?

You’d think a mind “bound by perfection” would be annoyed with the idea of all the electricity that goes to waste because of humans. There’s electricity that’s wasted by machines in order to power the sentinels, in order to play-fight with Zion, in order to dig all those tunnels, in order to build&protect all those pods, in order power the matrix, in order to feed all the humans... Then there’s the electricity wasted directly by the humans of Zion (power used by Zion is ‘wasted’ from the machine’s perspective... this is power that could be diverted to the machine city instead). All this power is wasted because the machines have decided to harvest humans... why?

Because otherwise there would be no Matrix... the writers needed an excuse for machines to enslave humans and this is what they came up with... I was pretty sure, after Matrix one, that by the 3rd movie we’d know what the real reason is, but i was wrong.... plus i've now realized that the reasons given in the movies have been enough to convince most people.



It’s OK though. It’s not like this is the first movie ever made with major holes in it. A lot of movies don’t make much sense... it would have been better if the matrix wasn’t one of them. Still, it’s entertaining.

Good thoughts.

I have always considered Dragons Mythical or legendary much in the same way as Unicorns. I think there would be a logical explaination for them if they did exist.

I dont understand why you can not accect the fact that a science exists that we now nothing about. Do you think we have acually cracked every mystery in the universe and have no room left for advancement. What if there is a force in nature we have not discovered yet or a sceintific theory we know nothing about?

Cold fusion is thought to be impossible but we may discover a way to achieve it yet. Faster Than Light drives, transporters, invisibility, Lazer cannons, antigravity, force shields are all stuff we have no technology to accomplish in the present day but are achievements that we may realize in the future.

What if the machines found an efficient way to turn a human into a battery in the face of extinction by being cut off from the sun. Now we are talking about an alien race with an alien way of thinking coming up with a viable technology we have never dreamed of or had any use to realize.

Why is that so hard to grasp?


Starbuck

Whatever I'm about to say might have been said before. I'm not going to read all three pages of this topic.

Machines were endowed with the spirit of man, and that's why they keep on living. Everything living thing wants to keep on living. Hence the reason why we eat food, sleep, etc. The Machines are the same way. Whatever is part of us, is part of them.

Just go watch the Animatrix!

Quite simply the only reason that the machines are using humans instead of any other power source is because of the deal made in the 2R. Sure they may have or have had other power options but they made a deal and they are keeping to it.

Made a deal?

What deal?

that was an unconditional surrender by the humans to the machines.


Machine Quote:
------------
hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you - we demand it!
------------

upon which the machine promptly explodes killing everyone showing what will happen if the humans do not comply.


some deal - those are not the words and actions of one side of a deal. That is slavery dude!


Better take a closer look at SR2.

Starbuck