»The main point is to make you ask what you _know_«

The main point of the movie is to have the viewer question what we "know". This is demonstrated in the characters of the movie by showing that Neo assumes he is Thomas Anderson, but he isn't really. He is the One, but he thinks he is not. The prophecy seems true, only to be revealed as part of the Architect's plan, etc.

There are assumptions that we make that are dealt with overtly: just as we are starting to suspect that the Oracle is a program, Neo has the revelation: How can I trust you? She knows that it is pointless to answer, but does indicate that it is a good question. But to enlarge the question, how can you trust anyone? Everyone trusted Cypher, but the viewer get's a bad vibe even before-hand with his jealousy of Trinity and Neo, and his turning off the screens when Neo scares the bejeezus out of him. Then what of Morpheus? Is he what he seems? In legend, the master of dreams. Is Morpheus and alter ego of the Oracle (never seen in the same place at the same time -- though that's true of many people), or the architect (if so, or something like it, then the question becomes, who are the alter-egos, and who are the primary egos?) The machines have many discreet personalities with different scopes of vision, but do they all play to the tune of the Architect or possibly someone else?

All of this is to get back to the question of what is the main assumption that we, the audience, are supposed to question. One of the most basic assumptions is that the machines have an adversarial role with humans because we are competing for control. What are some possible outcomes of bringing this assumption under scrutiny?

Should the movie be considered and discussed in literal terms, or figuratively? Discussing biblical/religious matters literally doesn't make sense, but people do it all the time. It is the underlying story that is really worth debating. Fundamental literalists miss the most fun in dissecting the stories.

My thought as to the most logical direction all of this points to is that there is really no external adversary nor ally for man. We have met the enemy, and it is us. We created the "prison for our minds" (whether that be a literal matrix of interconnected neural simulations or the civilized world we see outside our window) as a necessary step of growth into the next phase of evolution. All of the feelings that we have about "right" and "wrong" are just the necessary, but seemingly arbitrary, rules of engagement to get us to the next level. I have to qualify the word "arbitrary" above. I mean disconnected from "ultimate truth", not completely random. The necessity of the rules that we encounter results from our makeup, not from something outside of us. Of course, there is truly nothing that is completely "outside" of us, since we are all related to the whole, and transcendence is just a recognition of this truism on a larger scale. But it doesn't take long to notice the fractal nature of the realization as we find that we are still caught in an illusion of higher self, and we start a new game.

I haven't had the chance to Enter the Matrix, but the Animatrix revealed much about what I've come to believe is one way of looking at Matrix. We have come to the end of the Second Renaissance with a reboot about to take place.

Neo said it himself:

Neo: I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

He is going to be the messenger. But, I'm wondering if Seraph will play a key role in guiding his mind and body back together from the coma he's been left in. There's going to be an obvious battle between the Machines to prevent his re-integration during a potential Act I. Once re-integrated in Act II, the survivors from Zion and Neo battle to prevent a reboot of the Seventh Matrix. Victorious in Act III, Neo has to choose the fate of humanity and show them the way to the Third Renaissance - Man and Machine as a whole combined creation.

d-bearhug-nc wrote:

I haven't had the chance to Enter the Matrix, but the Animatrix revealed much about what I've come to believe is one way of looking at Matrix. We have come to the end of the Second Renaissance with a reboot about to take place.

The problem with "2nd Renaissance" is that it's totally biased. The poor poor machines just wanted love and peace and the bad bad humans started the war and destroyed earth. It points to the conclusion that the Zion archives are recorded by the machines themselves.

Thus handle it with care!

Is the second rennaisance biased? The humans were acting and reacting as they always have when faced with a problem they were largely ignorant of:violently. Having made the machines, and set a poor example for them to follow, they weren't exactly peacemongers when the shizzle went to fizzle. Ripping a man out of his mecha...while his arms and legs were still securely fastened inside? Experimenting with humans like they were things? My only problem with the 2nd Rennaisance is that it reminded me of our current global situations and ignorance.

I don't think the point of the movie is to question what we "know", although it certainly is an aspect of it. We already know that we can never really be certain of what we "know", but the question is, is there anything we can do about it. Does choice exist? Or is everthing predetermined? Everyone in the movie is pretty confused about this. Morpheus says to the Merovingian that "Everything begins with Choice." But then in the elevator he says that "What happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way." Throughout the movie, Neo is confronted with many choices, only to find that those choices were an illusion and that he was also a part of the system. Even the machines/AI/programs have conflicting views on this topic. The Merovingian believes that everything is cause and effect, and therefore choice does not exist. But the Oracle specificly tells us that programs can choose between deletion and exile into the Matrix. Even the Merovingian himself seems to be an exiled program, which means that he must have "chosen" to not be deleted. Agent Smith also "chose" to stay in the Matrix and now has his own agenda. But finally, we cannot be sure if any of these "choices" are real, since they may be a part of a larger scheme, controlled by a higher being. So the question that Neo must figure out is, what is real freedom? How does one make a real choice? (And I guess how would you know if you did)

The person above me is right . The main point of the movie is " Are our choices real " . Think about your own life . Do things in our lives happen because of the choices we made , or are they predetermined by God . Do we really chose to be good or bad or do we have no control over that , since God controls us all . Think of the many cliches we hear : " it wasn't his time to die " , " if it's meant to happen it will " ..... Why do we pray to God when we need something ? God already knows whether we are gonna get it or not , so why do we think that God will change his mind and make thing the way we want them ?
As far as the Second Renaissance ...... compare it to AI : Artificial Inteligence . See how the little boy is treated .

There is a different between God knowing the path we will take and God controling the path we will take.

Imagine reading a good book, lets say Lord of the Rings. The first time you read it through, its all new to you, you're experiencing the events with the characters. You know just as much as they do for all intents and purposes.

Now imagine you've read The Lord of the Rings say, 50 times, like I have =) You read it again, you know whats going to happen. You know Boromir is going to die. Now what happens if Pippin looked at you and said "You knew this was going to happen! You're controling our lives!". Is that true? Because you know the end are you really controlling whats happening?

Does God knowing the choices we will make mean he's controlling them? I certainly don't think so.

Why do we pray to God? Well, imagine if the thought was "I know the end of the story, the Ring gets destroyed. So why should we even take that journey?". There needs to be a means of something happening. Yeah, something might happen in your life *because* of prayer. God knows this. Does that mean he's changed his mind? No. You praying made that happen.

Yeah, God is a fairly hard thing to come to understand. Sorry if I've been too vauge and/or offtopic

Then how do you explain the mother who prays for her child in the hospital , the people in Israel praying for peace , the father who parays for his son who has been lost in action .... we don't get what we want because of our prayers . Our prayers aren't always answered . God chooses rather to award you with what you have wished for , no mather how much you pray or how good you are . Bad things happen to good people , religious people .
This conversation is kind of dumb , because there is no answer to it . All we're going to do is go in circles . Do we have a real choice in life , or is everything predetermined ...... we don't know .

Quote:

God chooses rather to award you with what you have wished for , no mather how much you pray or how good you are

That doesn't make any sense...perhaps I'm just not understanding you, perhaps you forgot a couple words to mistyped something...

Bad things happen to all people, yeah. When, might I ask, does God ever promise the life of a Christian is suddenly all bunny rabits, rainbows, little puffy clouds and flowers? Its not. God does say its harder, a la the comparison between being hooked up in the Matrix and not. Being not hooked up is harder, but its real. You're not trapped. Sin doesn't control you anymore. Sure, Christians still sin, people still go back into the Matrix. But Christians arn't slaves to it anymore. Sure, life outside the Matrix is harder, life being a Christian is harder. Being a Christian is really going against the grain in society. Being the bad guy, not the good guy, is the cool thing. Deconsideration of material possessions. Not continually swearing. Not having premarital sex in todays utterly sex-crazed world. There are so many instances where today Christian values are just "weird", so yeah, its harder.

Does everything we pray for get answered? Yes. But sometimes its a No. We have to accept that. If we could just always pray and have it delivered like some sorta pizza store, well, that would just be plain stupid. "I want a car to drop from the sky". BAM! "I want my house to be lined with $1000 bills." BAM! "I hate Johny, he should die!" BAM! Prayer is not auto fire, there's an intelligent, more intelligent than you could ever imagine, "being" out there answering our prayers. Yeah, sometimes its a No. It sucks, but to be rather honest I'm grateful for that. There's been tons of times I've prayed and looked back on it and said "man, if God would have said Yes that would have been really bad".

Is death this horrible thing? As far as to my knowledge, every person born of this earth has died. We, for some reason, just haven't gotten used to it yet. Is it so bad that there is trajety in this world? That there is a loss of innocence, genocide, murder, adultery, slavery, fear, paranoia, war, disobedience, lying, cheating, vulger and other grotesteries? Yeah, it sucks, but what would the Lord of the Rings be without Sauron? What would the Matrix be without the Matrix? This world is a book. Its being written and we're all characters in it. Yeah, crappy things happen. Boromir dies, Gandalf falls, Neo dies, Trinity dies, the Neb is blown up, and to us, these things suck. But when our time comes, and we finish the 'book' and look at everything from the big picture God sees it as, its going to be the most amazing story ever written.

Oh, God. This isn't a forum for discussing Chicken Soup for the Weak Minded Masses is it?
God is The All. The All is Mind. God doesn't make decisions or even pass judgement. Prayers only work when you believe they will to the point that your will is worked upon the surface of reality. That's why 'most' hospital prayers fail. Lack of belief.
We need a few free minds.

First of all, I'd like you to step down from attempting to insult me. That, my friend, is a sign of weakness.

When you say God is All, and All is the Mind, where do you come up with that? What makes you believe that the all is the mind? Personally, I think a thought like this is very sad. Additionally I do not believe creatures which obviously have morals and values could be, as you are suggesting, useless. If all is the mind, then when we die, thats it. Game over. You would quite literally not even know you ever existed because you don't have a mind to process that information. The world would go black and you simply wouldn't exist, even to yourself. Therefore there is no reason to develop morals and values since they are obviously, in the grand scheme of things which you are defining, unecessary. What are the consequences of not having morals? None. Because if all is the mind, then when you die all is lost and you are served no consequence.

When you say such statements as "God doesn't make decisions or even pass judgement", could you perhaps reference something or even perhaps explain why? That's equivilant to me saying "All Americans have purple poka-dot skin." Theres no foundation to it and I've offered no reasons. I'm somewhat presuming you've never written a paper or an essay, but perhaps this opportunity will help you to learn how to voice ones opinion using constructive arguments. Good stuff to know when you make it through the later years of high school and post secondary.

Your example of prayer certainly doesn't offer any explaination for events which take place on grander scales. A friend of mine had serious heart problems (extra fluid around the heart, causing it to seriously struggle to beat). The doctors tried doing operations, but whenever they cleared it out, his body would just produce more and more. It was a losing battle. A lot people prayed for him in our church, and the next morning the doctors did a check and all the fluid was gone. No trace of it. Done. He was out of the hospital that afternoon and it hasn't come back.

Other examples, praying for a job, for family units to be restored, heck, praying to be able to pay the next months rent. About 8 months ago I was unemployed, had no savings, and was in an absolutely horrible economic area. No one was hiring. Today I own my own company in web design and recently I've even started teaching it at a local university. Upon hindsight I know why I was put through that test, I know the reasons and, like the Merovingian asks, I know the why. Knowing the why is power because it leads to wisdom.

No, what becomes out of prayer cannot be explained because we somehow "willed" it so much that it became true. When I was young I prayed and willed so much that I could fly. Guess what? I ain't.

Would your friend have survived if it weren't for the prayers ? For every one example you give me where the prayers have worked I can give you a 100 where it didn't . I see this everyday in the hospital . When it is your time to die , there is no amount of prayers that will save you . God has made that decision and there is nothing you can do about it . Did your friend's family and friends pray more than the woman who prayed for her little child before he died ? It just wasn't your friend's time to die yet . I don't think any prayer saved him .
I'm sorry , I don' t mean to be disrespectful , I am glad to hear that your friend is dong well .

Thank you for your considerate post.

Yes, it can seem like sometimes all is futile. This goes back to one of my earlier posts here, where it is discussed that prayer is sometimes the catalyst.

So, are all prayers answered? Yes. Does that mean that all prayers are answered with a "Yes"? Nope. Sometimes our prayers are answered with a No. We pray for things, and God may say "Yes, I'll have that happen", or he might say "No, I won't have that happen". Once again, when I was young I constantly prayed I could fly. Would this have been a good thing for God to grant? Probably not. I also prayed for X-Ray vision so I could see through womens clothing. Not a good thing. God always answers, but sometimes its just a No.

Yes, when its your time to die, its your time to die. You know what? The bible actually gives and example to those people whom want prayer to work for death though. There was a King who prayed to God he wouldn't die, since he knew his time was coming. God said it was his time and he should die, although the King pleaded to God that he wouldn't die and have more years to live. God agreed, but warned the King it wasn't a good thing. The King then, in those extended years, had a son. A horrible, murderous son who, from what I recall, actually turns around and kills his father. The son becomes king and becomes a horrible ruler over his people.

So, does it mean that because people pray that people arn't going to die? Not at all. How cheap would that be? "God, I don't want to die". BAM! Its a mircowave oven view of God. Its an instant pourage view of God. Its a 1 hour photo view of God. Its not going to happen.

And sometimes its not someones time to die, so when we pray for them to live, they shall. Although if we didn't pray for them, they might not have lived.

But obviously there are cases when God answers prayer with a Yes. My getting a job under completely unrealistic, and by all rights impossible, circumstances. My friend having his heart cleared up. You hear about stories all over. Heck, when I was young my computer was in the shop...for a long time. I was getting really anxious to use it. That afternoon I prayed that my computer would be returned to me. Guess what? In walked my step father with the computer. Dya know whats neat? God is outside of time, so he knew that I was going to pray for the computer that afternoon, so in the morning he got the tech guy to work extra hard on it, and that afternoon he got my step father to remember to pick it up.

Understanding God is much harder than understanding the Matrix. The Matrix is something we could eventually wrap our heads around. God is not. There are soooo many things which God doesn't even reveal in the Bible about himself. Heaven and hell are barely described, because that's something for us to discover later.

I heard a great analogy the other day. Life, this life, is a title page of a book. That's it. Right now, our lives, we're writing the title page. When we die, our life begins. Then we will start living, thats when we'll start filling out the pages and chapters. Then we'll start that journey into things we never even dreamed of.

People are constantly looking for excuses not to believe in God. Why? Usually because it'd mess up their lives too much. People like taking the easy road. People like having flagrant sex. People like living without having to take responsibility. But there are a few who break through that, who escape the Matrix. Like Morpheus said, "There are some who are so dependant on the Matrix, they would fight for its survival". The people that look for excuses not to believe in God because he doesn't answer every prayer with a yes are some of those people who would fight for the Matrix. Look around you. Look at your own eye. Look at your own self. Look at the wonderful beauty in its complexity. Look even at the complexity of the eye. Look at the complexity of sex. Look at the complexity of trees, birds, the entire structure of nature and its balance. Look at the complexity of Earth, the changing of seasons, birth and rebirth.

Through all the years man has been digging, there hasn't once been an instance where we stumbled upon a computer which evolved. All the minerals are there, theoretically (I say theoretically because I don't share the same ideas on the timeline of earth) they've had millions of years to evolve in the ground. So where's the computer chip? Why haven't one of those evolved out of the ground?

Could it ever happen?

The compter was created by an intelligent being. It works so perfectly together, to monitor to the video card, the video card from the motherboard which supplies the data processed by the CPU which came over the FSB from the hard drive which might have gotten there from the Ethernet card connected to the internet connected to millions of other computers. Now look at yourselves and your complexity. Guess what? You're much more complex than a computer, believe it or not. So what makes you think you could evolve when a computer could not?

The heart is very special, and a person's body responds to their thinking more than most doctors are willing to admit.
Also, I wasn't attempting to insult you so much as amuse those who do not cling to beliefs started by a church that has murdered more people in the name of god than any before it, and possibly any after it.
If you would claim allegiance to Christianity, please study its root which flow with great wisdom.
The All is Mind. I did not say THE mind or your mind or my mind. I wrote Mind. According to many sources, Jesus himself has proclaimed that God is the All. And the Nature of the All is Mind(pure and magnificent, nameless and still existant).
Here are some exerpts much older than King James(a man with his own agenda, mind you) or any of the others who have perverted wisdom with their blasphemy:

GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THOMAS

WHERE ARE YOU FROM?

Logia 50. Jesus said: If they say to you: "From where have you originated?", say to them: "We have come from the Light, where the Light originated through itself. It [stood] and it revealed itself in their image". If they say to you: "(Who) are you?, say: "We are His sons and we are the elect of the Living Father". If they ask you; "What is the sign of your Father in you?, say to them : "It is a movement and a rest".

"We have come from the Light and put on a coat of skins and we shall return to the Light." Says The Book of the Dead out of Egypt. Also The Kabalion says that everything is a vibration - or a movement and a rest.

Where did this Logia come from but the ancient Hermetic teachings out of Egypt. A Study of The Kybalion' would be a good adjunct to New Christian studies, for it contains the foundation principles on which much of New Christianity has been based.

Do remember though that the term 'occult' in 'The Kabalion' is its ancient meaning of 'hidden' not our present day definition, which like so many of the semantics of the past that have been degraded..

"The Apocryphon of John "Where the light being of light is the Father, he who is 'pure light' and is surrounded by the 'pure water of light'."

The Father reveals his image to "the reflection in the water" the image after which the Creator god and his powers then create Adam ... after the "image of God".

We are in fact composed of light packets as energy.

The Manichaean Psalm Book
{also a vibration} shall go to the fragrance, the image of the living man shall go to the living land from which it came. The Light shall return to its place. The darkness shall fall and not rise again."

Logia 51. His disciples said to him : when will the repose of the dead come about and when will the new world come? He said to them: What you expect has come, but you know it not.

There is no repose, there is only eternal life and you are in it right now. So make the most of your opportunities here and now. ( the word Know here is to recognize or to understand)

Logia 52. His disciples said to Him : Twenty four prophets spoke in Israel and they all spoke about Thee. He said to them: You have dismissed the Living One who is before you and you have spoken about the dead.

Again as in Logia 50, there are those who always want to know, "Where did you get this, or read this, or who from. Thinking that the days of revelation are over instead of its continuity through all times.

Theology refers to the Ezra-Apocalypse
"Where five men are said to have been given the task of copying out the holy traditions. So in forty days were written ninety-four books. And it came to pass when the forty-days were fulfilled, that the Most High spoke unto me, saying: "The twenty-four books that thou hast written publish, that the worthy and unworthy may read therein. But the seventy last thou shalt keep, to deliver them to the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the stream of knowledge."

The twenty-four books are those which were read in the synagogue and which were accessible to all. In the Talmud and the Midrash, twenty-four is the normal total of the books of the Old Testament.

There are many who have accepted intuitively from the Universal Mind. And there are those who will continue to do so - but the truths always remains the same, no matter what context, which is how you can recognize their validity.

24, by the way, equals Neo plus 23 chosen ones to rebuild Zion(paradise).

strife wrote:

Understanding God is much harder than understanding the Matrix.

Hey, one should make god-explained.com with all the arguments and counter-arguments.

strife wrote:

There are soooo many things which God doesn't even reveal in the Bible about himself.

The bible? Why the bible?

Hey, since this is a site about thoughts and counter-thoughts please allow me to drop in some interesting points. You shouldn't consider any of my points below as my personal view. Just as contributions to the discussion.

strife wrote:

First of all, I'd like you to step down from attempting to insult me. That, my friend, is a sign of weakness.

Is it? Who said that? Maybe it's a sign of being right? Politicians behave political correctly without insulting anybody. Would you consider politicians as praiseworthy? Jesus insulted other Jews. Was he weak?

strife wrote:

I do not believe creatures which obviously have morals and values could be, as you are suggesting, useless.

Morals are only useful if they serve a higher purpose. Thus morals themselves could be very useless or even harmful if they served the wrong purpose or if there isn't any purpose. Besides: Weren't so called purposes the reason for slaughtering other humans with other morals?

strife wrote:

If all is the mind, then when we die, thats it. Game over.

ONLY if the mind is part of the body. But can you be sure of it? Maybe when we die our mind functions even better without the chain of our brain?

strife wrote:

When you say such statements as "God doesn't make decisions or even pass judgement", could you perhaps reference something or even perhaps explain why? That's equivilant to me saying "All Americans have purple poka-dot skin."

That's true. And it's equivalent to "God does make decisions and passes judgement" because you cannot prove either.

It's like arguing "God lives in the skies" vs. "God lives beneath the oceans".

Also there seems to be another thing in your statement: God? Why not Gods? Or 123 Gods? Or 17 godesses and 6 gods?

strife wrote:

I'm somewhat presuming you've never written a paper or an essay, but perhaps this opportunity will help you to learn how to voice ones opinion using constructive arguments.

Full ACK. I think there is no better way to learn about different opinions than by a internet forum or as a teacher.

strife wrote:

Your example of prayer certainly doesn't offer any explaination for events which take place on grander scales.

The point is: It doesn't have to because you cannot prove it either. What would have happened if nobody prayed?

You know the joke: "I hate you. I put a spell on you: Your house should burn. Oh no, maybe that's too vicious. Your house should not burn"...and so it came: The house didn't burn. What a power curses have!!

strife wrote:

A friend of mine had serious heart problems

There you have it.
a) How many times others with heart problems prayed and nothing happened?
b) How many times bad things happened to praying people? "God has his mysterious ways" may be just an excuse.
c) And how many times something like this came true where nobody prayed?

strife wrote:

About 8 months ago I was unemployed, had no savings

Possible explanations:
1) If you didn't pray, you would have a better job now.
2) If you didn't pray, the same result would have happened.
3) By praying you threw all your efforts and responsibility onto god, BUT ALSO all your counter-efforts. Thus by lessening your counter-efforts you got a better work

strife wrote:

When I was young I prayed and willed so much that I could fly. Guess what? I ain't.

Yes, but why not? You state that as an side joke. "Well obviously I still cannot fly, haha". But in reality your statement shows merely that only unprovable things (within the parameters of the material universe) can come true by prayers.

And another thing: If a prayer worked indeed: Couldn't it have been the DEVIL? This would be the greatest joke of all: All the Christians praying to the Devil thinking it's GOD.

Hahaha , that was some funny shiznet knnknn .

Strife , you can't compare computer evolution to human evolution .
1) Computers have no DNA and therefore have no chance for mutations . 2) A computer is an inorganic compound , and by definition cannot evolve . 3) Evolution takes thousands of years to occur . Computers were invented about 50 years ago .

Since our beloved site admin. loves counter points so much , I will give one . It could be argued that computers are evolving , because they are getting more powerful and faster . As the new computers come into the market , the old ones become useless and are destroyed ....... suvival of the fitest hehe .
I hope you realize this is a competely moronic argument :O)

All this talk reminds me of 2001 : A space oddyssay ( spelling ? ) . Great movie .

Hmm, is DNA really a necessity for evolution?
Couldn't it be argued that by learning new job tasks and social activities, you are evolving? You can use technology on a daily basis that a 14th century man would have a difficult time even learning. My own father simply cannot learn certain computer functions.
Also, a volcanic island grows, and changes. Isn't that evolution?
Now, here is a point brought up in the Invisibles(a comic that was so inspirational to the Matrix, that the brothers kept the novels on set, and had the cast read them along with philosophy books) by Grant Morrison:

Plant matter is not very dense on a cellular level. But it is alive and grows and evolves. If you do not believe this, than you must investigate the way that plants and animals and microorganisms end up relying on each other for special functions, such as pollination.

Animals have a more dense cellular structure, and enjoy a more self-contained form(no roots) and greater mobility than that of plants. To us, the plants are basically standing still. Also, because of our mobility, we have a more adaptive brain capability.

Minerals have the densest (cellular?) structure. Now, certainly, humans have been the catalyst for the evolution of mineral intelligence, since WE are the ones refining the minerals into a silicon computer chip form. But, once in that form, the computers now (yes, they have evolved from room filling transistors into pin sized and smaller super computers) have massive computational abilities. Math can be done on a computer that really would not be possible by animal intelligence alone. And, they can "understand" abstractions of dimension that we cannot. We are in 4D.
Length, breadth, hight, and time. X,Y,Z and T. Computers now can compute 7, 8, 9 dimensions mathematically, which is impossible for our minds to visualize. And, since most computers are hooked up to networks and the World Wide Web, they can send information between each other in ways that make us 4D animals seem to be standing still.
This is not even accounting for Quantum computers(there are three known in the world, 2 in Japan, 1 in USA). Look up these types of computer sometime. Amazing. So, once AI has been acheived/manifested, whatever, we will have an intelligence that will laugh at our conceptions of time and space. We will be like the trees, rooted in time, unable to zip around the information landscape.
And, it is inevitable unless we blow the planet up in the next few years.
So, what is evolution?
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin evolution-, evolutio unrolling, from evolvere
Date: 1622
1 : one of a set of prescribed movements
2 a : a process of change in a certain direction : UNFOLDING b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : EMISSION c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d : something evolved
3 : the process of working out or developing
4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : PHYLOGENY b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations
5 : the extraction of a mathematical root
6 : a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena

Interesting, isn't it?

drnima wrote:

As the new computers come into the market , the old ones become useless and are destroyed ....... suvival of the fitest

Survival of the fastest.
Survival of the Gatest.

What do you mean by density ? molecular weight or cellular density which refers to the organels contained in a cell . You cannot compare cellular density of a living animal or plant with that of a mineral , simply because minerals are not composed of cell , only molecules .
You can however compare cellular density in eukaryotes and prokaryotes . Eukaryotes have higher cellular density ( mainly becasue of mitochondria ) than prokaryotes and this can explain the fact that we are much more evolved than bacteria .
Evolution , in the biological definition , can only occur in an organic compound . Therefore , a volcano or a computer cannot evolved . What you guys are confusing here is the bilogical definition of evolution , and the more general definition of evolution .
Also , a computer cannot solve a mathematical problem that cannot be solved by a human . We programmed the computers and told them how to solve these problems . If we did not know how to solve a problem , then the computer could not have been programmed to solve it . The difference is that it would take a longer time for a human to solve the same problem .

I am not confusing biological evolution with anything. I'm merely stating the belief that biological evolution is merely one extension of universal evolution. Don't you feel similarly?
And, yes, computers can solve equations beyond their initial programming, because they CAN be programmed to extrapolate, and dare I say...learn.
You are correct in the idea that eventually a human could solve an equation that would take a computer 10 seconds, but some of the equations a computer is capable of processing could take 100's of years with whole teams of people.
Also, we will never be able to manually zip information about the globe in such huge packets as can be done by these machines.
What will biology even mean when genetics are mastered, when nanotech is mastered, when man and machine are integrated, and intelligence/sentience is achieved by computers?
Also, WE ARE EVOLVING, through our machines, through our tools. The way we live, think, and dream is all completely centered around our tools. Do you agree?

1) Who says we are evolving? Maybe we are downvolving? We have been gods and all possible life forms existed billions of years ago. Now dinosaurs died and we have bodies that even cannot fly anymore....

2) Who says DNA is the holder of form + structure + behaviour? The DNA could be just the matrix for the needed chemicals, while all the functions are stored somewhere else....

Sorry Ogami but I don't agree . Our technology is evolving , not us . We are not structuraly changing .
Knnknn , you are right , we are not evolving , we are downvolving ( haha I like that word ) . On one hand we are finding new ways to treat diseases that have been fatal in the past , but on the other hand we are creating new diseases . We creat weapons that are more and more powerful . We are the architects of our own extinction .

We are changing. Statistics show that we are getting taller. Our children now have a 9 min attention span(the average span of tv show until a commercial break), as opposed to 1940's behavioral studies where it was closer to 2 1/2 hours. We are becoming more pretentious. Our popular music is getting "jiggier." Our brains are more used to seeing fantasy expressed photo-realistically. We produce different amounts of all of the major chemicals in the brain than we did even 5 years ago(on average). If we were not evolving, then our pollution would be killing us faster than it is(although cancer is WAY up). Look at radiation statistics for this country. If you brought someone from the past, Bill & Ted style, they would take one breath or have one drink of our water and keel over on the spot. Our brain chemicals do change as the way we process thoughts adapt to our tools. Can you even imagine what dreams were like before TV? Also, studies have shown that the more a person is on computers, the more their speech changes to the linguistic flow of typing. Short and abrupt. To say we are not evolving is to deny what it is to be an organism(an adaptive amalgam of differing cell structures or organs).

Sorry, gotta disagree with you Ogami. What you have identified is adaption. There is a significant difference between adaption and evolution. Evolution is based on mutation, and I think I heard it best fron the X-Men series at the beginning. Evolution works in leaps and bounds (that is to say if it works at all, which I personally believe is the biggest joke this millinium). How else, do you theorize, a fish could "gradually" learn to breathe air? Evolution is based on huge leaps.

Adaption, on the other hand, is something vastly different which scientists alike like pointing out exclaiming "Look! Look! Its evolution!", although their very definition of the event denies their claims. Adaption is everything you said. Shorter attention spans, getting used to crappy water. Actually its more like environmental conditioning then anything else.

Knnknn identified that we're "devolving", which is completely and utterly true. Look at the way child birth works. We're suddenly not getting any more wonderful genes, we're getting less. Could it work any other way? Do new genes just magically appear? Think about it: if you have a recessive gene and a dominant gene, that dominant gene is going to take over. What happens to the recessive gene as it keeps getting pushed lower and lower as dominant genes keep piling on top? Well, it pretty much gets kicked outta the pool.

Why does inbreeding make such horrible children? Because you're dealing with identical gene pools (or nearly), and thus and genetic deformations are exclaimated.

So in short, what you have identified is adaption or more accurately, environmental conditioning. That ain't evolution, baby.