»Some evidence against MwM«

( We see the Oracle taking care of Sati (the 'important' child) as Neo arrives. )

Neo: Where is this going? Where does it end ?
Oracle: I don't know.
Neo: You don't know or you won't tell me ?
Oracl: I told you before, no one can see beyond a choice they don't understand. And I mean no one.
Neo: What choice ?
Oracle: It doesn't matter. It's my choice. I have mine to make, same as you have yours.
Neo: Does that include what things to tell me and what not to tell me ?
Oracle: Of course not.
Neo: Then why didn't you tell me about the Architect ? Why didn't you tell me about Zion and the Ones before me ? Why didn't you tell me the truth ?
Oracle: Because it wasn't time for you to know.




Neo: Tell me how I separted my mind from my body without jacking in. Tell me how I stopped four sentinels by thinking it. Tell me just what the hell is happening to me.
Oracle: The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from.
Neo: Where ?
Oracle: The Source. That's what you felt when you touched those Sentinels. But you weren't ready for it.
Neo: The Architect told me that if I didn't return to the Source, Zion would be destroyed by midnight tonight.
Oracle: (rolls her eyes) Please. You and I may not be able to see beyond our own choices, but that man can't see past any choices.
Neo: Why not ?
Oracle: He doesn't understand them. He can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved then countered. That's his purpose. To balance an equation.
Neo: What's your purpose ?
Oracle: To unbalance it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I got this from some site, can't find the link just yet, but it sorta takes away an argument for MwM, cause it explains why Neo's powers can work in the real world , therefore Zion is not a MwM.

Wait.. how does that disprove the MwM threory? If anything it supports it.

Oracle: The power of the One extends beyond this world [the matrix]. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from.
Neo: Where ?
Oracle: The Source. That's what you felt when you touched those Sentinels.

That would mean Zion was the part of the Source. ie: part of the computer simulation.

1234567890 wrote:

Oracle: The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from. Neo: Where ? Oracle: The Source. That's what you felt when you touched those Sentinels. But you weren't ready for it.

I believe this is evidence agains MwM because of this. In Matrix 1, Smith, from INSIDE the Matrix commands a sentinal attack (SMITH: Continue as planned. Deploy the sentinals.)

This shows that the 01 control system (for the sentinals) and the Matrix must be connected (the same Wlan, so to speak).

When 01 sent the 'kill' command to the sentinals, Neo 'felt' this because his body in the Matrix could. He put up his hand and, as he did with the bullets, dirupted the incoming code, thus making the Sentinals perform a completely different task; self destruct.

That does nothing to explain how Neo stops the sentinels. The is no connection between his mind in the matrix and his body outside the matrix. Even if his mind inside the matrix is able to see what the sentinels are doing there is no reason what his physical being outside the matrix would suddenly feel that.

If there was some kind of physical connection being neo to the matrix like a wire still in his head then it would make sense.. but there isn't.


However I think that quote lends more support to the MwM theory then against it.

By saying the power of the one extents beyond this world back to where it came from (The Source) she is essentually saying that Zion is some part of the Source. Or that the sentinels are part of the Source and for that reason he was able to stop them. However if it is the latter and he is able to stop them because they are part of the Source that still doesn't explain how he manages to send signal thru to the source to stop them. And don't say "cause his mind is still in the matrix also" cause that's no explaination at all. He is outside the matrix and wants to stop them.. somehow he would have to be able to tell hisself inside the matrix to stop them.

Unless of course we are going to assuming he has some rare unhuman ability to connect his mind inside the matrix also. Which is kinda cheesy and superhero-ish.

If Neo's powers extend beyond the Matrix and goes back all the way it came from. This means his powers reach to the source where he as well as the matrix where created. Some sort of main machine that controls all different programs inside the matrix and also gives orders to the sentinels. Neo is able to have control over this main machine and has the abillity to stop the sentinels.

But this still doesn't tell us if Zion is the real world or not. Zion could be the real world but it could also be another matrix. The main machine could control the sentinels in both worlds. It makes no difference.

Well if what she says it just so people understand "Neo is able to do funky shit all over the machines system rather then just in the system called "The Matrix" then that still doesn't answer dick all about how he managed to do anything to them outside the matrix.

I can see if he was plugged into the matrix and the sentinels came to attack them he could stop them then.. but unplugged from the matrix? "OHH THIS MIND IS HALF IN AND HALF OUT OF THE MATRIX!" Well how do those halves interact with eachout so they can stop the sentinels? Its magic! I hope thats not the explaination :/

You can never understand what the Oracle tells you. If I were Neo I would have shot her in her oven. She oraclebabbles the whole day. You can interpret her either way.

However, I think that this dialog is most probably a fake.

1234567890 wrote:

I got this from some site, can't find the link just yet,

I agree with the people who said that M:Rev doesn't give a conclusive answer to that elusive question: Is Zion real, or part of the simulation? Not enough information has been provided [purposely, I'm sure!] so we can debate till the cows come home...

...unless someone observed something that I (and others) didn't.

One very important line that helps the MiM theory, at the end when everyone is happy and Morpheus is hugging Niobe, he says "Is This Real?" Already he is disbelieving the miracle he based his life on.

I'm still totally for the MiM theory even after seeing M3. The intro scene with red fire fractals that zoom out into the green matrix tells me they are the same system with different code. How else can all the fire-code Neo sees be explained? That he is just so much in touch with machines now that he sees their "aura" even tho his optical inputs are thrashed beyond usage?

And what about that sentinel he absorbed before they got to 01? It didn't crash the ship like I had imagined, they kept flying for a ways and did the whole lose them in the electrical clouds scene. How would some sort of intuitive or command-control abilities over machines allow him to completely absorb a squiddie without it smashing into the Logos or Trinity?

one thing I believe is this discussion is the intended effect they wanted, to have everyone make up their own mind Why.

burnt,

I was leaning towards MiM since M:Rel (actually, the possibility first occurred to me after the M1). We still can't know for sure... but the points you brought up are a step closer to proving it.

Soujiro wrote:

The is no connection between his mind in the matrix and his body outside the matrix

Do you know what the machines put in the human bodies when they create them? Maybe they put in some WAN component into them to make stuff easier to believe in the Matrix so everybody accepts it. Let's say they have to move someone on the powerplant-fields then it would be a good idea to still have them plugged in while moving them. Don't say stuff you can't back up with proof.

another thought I had, what was up with the Sun when Trinity and Neo saw it above the clouds? It all happened so fast, but I seem to remember she looked up and saw the Sun all fragmented and weird looking. I don't think it was cracked windshield glass, or her eyes tearing up, the clouds underneath were fine I think.

What if the machines darkened the sky in "the desert of the real" because they couldn't get the sun right? It's often cloudy or raining in the Matrix, with some exceptions, and I don't remember a shot with the sun in it before. What if Sati's newfound purpose is to work on making the Sun believable for the simulation?

and one side note, I like the "Tastee Wheat" billboard in the beginning

I recall that dialogue from The Matrix: Revolutions. Yes, it is the exact dialogue from Neo's first visit to the Oracle in The Matrix: Revolutions.

yeah... the tastee wheat billboard was one of the little "easter eggs" i noticed... i was concentrating so hard on finding the little eggs that i hardly paid attention to the plot...

oracle smokes Double Destiny cigs
trainman's train # is LOOP
monica belushi's nipples were the only thing keeping that drest from popping open
etc. etc.

(i cant wait to see the behind the scenes footage of the merovingian scene )
also... the best line in the movie... "so... whats it gonna be mirv?"

burnt wrote:

What if the machines darkened the sky in "the desert of the real" because they couldn't get the sun right?

Or because simulating only a small part of the world requires less capacity (RAM, horse power).
Simulation of Zion+01 is easy. Simulation of the whole earth including universe etc is complicated.

MantaRay wrote:

1234567890 wrote: Oracle: The power of the One extends beyond this world. It reaches from here all the way back to where it came from. Neo: Where ? Oracle: The Source. That's what you felt when you touched those Sentinels. But you weren't ready for it. I believe this is evidence agains MwM because of this. In Matrix 1, Smith, from INSIDE the Matrix commands a sentinal attack (SMITH: Continue as planned. Deploy the sentinals.) This shows that the 01 control system (for the sentinals) and the Matrix must be connected (the same Wlan, so to speak). When 01 sent the 'kill' command to the sentinals, Neo 'felt' this because his body in the Matrix could. He put up his hand and, as he did with the bullets, dirupted the incoming code, thus making the Sentinals perform a completely different task; self destruct.

That's What I have been saying a long time.

The very fact that if neo and smith are connect even if neo is outside, show that neo has part of his "software" resident in the matrix, and in a complete intuitive form, he controls sentinels software...

I'm glad someone agrees with me!
Look at this:

NEO's RSI IN MATRIX -> connected by the Matrix phone lines to -> 01 MAINFRAME -> connected by wireless LAN to -> SQUIDDIES -> who is touched by Neo -> NEO

This is how Neo gets his power, he is connected to his body by the levels of control.

Here's a completely different idea, though. Mabey the candy the oracle gave Neo is like a conductor, and Neo can recieve the data because of what the sweet is doing.

Also, I believe that the glowing in the Zion City is HUMAN ENERGY. Look at the powerplant, you can see a strong bring light where every human is. So I think Neo is seeing Human Energy when he sees the strange code. Or mabey not even that, mabey just energy in general.

The reason Neo can feel it then is because of what I said with the candy. Here's my revised thingy:

NEO's RSI IN MATRIX -> connected by the Matrix phone lines to -> 01 MAINFRAME -> connected by wireless LAN, channeled by the candy to -> NEO

What do you think?

The bottom line is that it can't be proved one way or the other from the information given in the movie. Anyone who truly understands the films knows that there is no correct interpretation. It's whatever anyone thinks it is.

Joris wrote:

If Neo's powers extend beyond the Matrix and goes back all the way it came from. This means his powers reach to the source where he as well as the matrix where created. Some sort of main machine that controls all different programs inside the matrix and also gives orders to the sentinels. Neo is able to have control over this main machine and has the abillity to stop the sentinels. But this still doesn't tell us if Zion is the real world or not. Zion could be the real world but it could also be another matrix. The main machine could control the sentinels in both worlds. It makes no difference.

Zion is part of the M so deal with it. That is the way iti stands until someone on this board proves it otherwise. I do not care what you think nor about any little piss ant comment you will make in passing it will not change the fact that Zion is within the M. Deal with it and move on lest you want a piece of the intellectual pie from my shoe up ur a$$.

AnaisKarim wrote:

The bottom line is that it can't be proved one way or the other from the information given in the movie. Anyone who truly understands the films knows that there is no correct interpretation. It's whatever anyone thinks it is.

You sort of contradicted yourself there. Your interpretation of the movie is that "It's whatever anyone thinks it is". That's not necessarily the right interpretation, it's just one interpretation.

There are 2 different levels of understanding here. One is to just understand the story and plot. The second is to understand the themes of the movie, one of which perhaps is that reality is primarily based one one's interpretation of it.

Soujiro wrote:

By saying the power of the one extents beyond this world back to where it came from (The Source) she is essentually saying that Zion is some part of the Source. Or that the sentinels are part of the Source and for that reason he was able to stop them. However if it is the latter and he is able to stop them because they are part of the Source that still doesn't explain how he manages to send signal thru to the source to stop them.

if this is true then when Neo is blinded, how come he can only see the gold code (the machines)? he can't see Trinity or even the insides of the ship he's standing in.

if it were MwM, he should be able to see all of it, don't you think?

MantaRay wrote:

In Matrix 1, Smith, from INSIDE the Matrix commands a sentinal attack (SMITH: Continue as planned. Deploy the sentinals.) This shows that the 01 control system (for the sentinals) and the Matrix must be connected (the same Wlan, so to speak).

It shows that it's possible to send infomation from the matrix to RW. That's all. It has no bearing on how Neo stopped the sentinels.

Grendelvs wrote:

come he can only see the gold code (the machines)? he can't see Trinity or even the insides of the ship he's standing in. if it were MwM, he should be able to see all of it, don't you think?

The gold stuff isn't code. At least, not like the matrix code. There are no characters.

evr wrote:

Don't say stuff you can't back up with proof.

You mean, like this?

evr wrote:

Maybe they put in some WAN component into them to make stuff easier to believe in the Matrix so everybody accepts it.