»True or false? Deny our impulses = Deny what makes us human«

Ralph, I have cats and dogs as pets over the years, and at times I see that they also have ability to suppress their impulses. However, they only do it from fear of punishment, not because they know right from wrong.

Knowing right from wrong is what separates us from animals when it comes to dealing with impulses.

what the hell do cats and dogs have to do with neo? so who likes waffles?

are my posts annoying?

i hope so, cause that will brighten my day![/quote][/url][/i][/b]

so um where does frodo come into play?

im the king of legos

I totally agree with stinkz.

Morality, as I understand it, is the ability to distingiush right from wrong and is based on the fact that you are being aware of your actions and their consequences. Maybe also animals are aware of their actions but their scope is very narrow-minded -- they see only few consequences. Humans, on the other hand, understand their doings much more - you are able to see your existence in the context of society, state, humankind or nature.

This is what I understand as morality -- to see not only you and your profit, but also other people and your surrounding (nature, city). And it do not ends with consideration -- you have to act in accordance with all your knowledge and feelings (this is what your conscience is telling you to do).

I think that the morality is very well expressed in conscious choise, because then you have to consider the consequences and act.

Obviously, you can also act without consederation of anything and pick up randomly an option, or consider whatever you want but do not act. Both these cases have nothing to do with morality (if you agree with previous definition) and with choise either.

Thus morality and choise are the keys to the humanity (as was nicely depicted in The Matrix trilogy). Sexual impulses are just several from many to consider, but have a special role in maintaining humanity - that's why some people are somewhat overestimating them ... as you have seen in the movie, although the love between Trinity & Neo is expressed even in the rave dance/sex scene, their love isn't based on their sexual relation. And human existence of matrixers from the physical point of view isn't based on sex at all - humans are grown.

I can go on writing, but I'm just realizing heading somewhat off topic. So I'll assemble my thoughts a bit and post them then in a different thread.

Titek, so are you saying that we should deny our sexual impulses even in the case of two consenting adults?

I understand the point you are making that trinity/neo sexual act was only an expression of their love, and their love is deeper and has much more meaning than just sex.

However, Is it morally wrong to have sex between two consenting adults? If we can't resist or deny our sexual impulses, then we are animals?

Please don't take it personal, I'm only trying to raise some points for sake of discussion

Stinkz,
Who determines our moral values? Does society or norms determine or influence our moral values?

No, no, no m4jor_p41n. There is nothing morally wrong if there are, as you say, two consenting adults.

What I meant to say was that there is no morality, if you don't have the choise (if you are not aware of your doings - for example if you are under the drugs).

That's why you are not like an animal, when you are aware of your actions, even if you can't resist your sexual impulses.

It may sounds a bit contradictory in the case you are aware of your actions, can't resist your sexual impulses and don't want to have a sex (but you are unable to stop it) - but then there is no consent.

I think that if you are aware, you always act like human, because even if there is a point where you can't resist your impulses, you can make your choise before this critical moment happen simply because of your awareness: you can predict what may possibly happen and at that moment, you can make your choise which is then a moral act .

If you are not sure at this point, you may try to consult some Oracle that is actually at hand ...

Am I a bit clearer now?

haha.. That's ok, the Oracle will confuse me more with her mumbo jumbo talk. I think most of us pretty much share the same view on this topic, we just have different approaches in expressing it.

m4jor_p41n wrote:

Who determines our moral values? Does society or norms determine or influence our moral values?

Well, alot of things determine our moral values. we are born with an innate conscience, which makes us feel guilty after doing certain things. We also are disciplined by our parents and are guided by what they think is best for us. Also, we are guided by societal laws. These laws are influenced by ancient writings and such. But, whatever you believe about the origin of our moral standards, we all know that there is truth and there is falsehood reguarding them. We know that murder is wrong. We know that theft is wrong. We know that rape is wrong. These things are not subject to change... at least we hope they're not (this is one of the reasons I worry about those who claim the only constant is change). There is no denying that morals exist and are true; and that we should act according to them. I think most of us here would agree that our society is "better" than the Nazi regime. In what sense is it better? Better economically? Better technologically? No. Better morally.



I happen to think that sex between two consenting adults, though obviously not as bad as rape, is still wrong. Why? Because the act is entirely self-centered. Marriage is an institution which guarantees women the right to have a providing, caring husband who is fully committed to her in all types of love; not one who is merely looking to satisfy his immediate desires.

I have a question for you, m4jor. Why do we want to keep our children "innocent?"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean with the "Why do we want to keep our children innocent?" question.

Innocent as in do not commit crimes? or innocent as in trying to stay a virgin until marriage ? .. Please explain....

I mean, why do we want to keep our childrens eyes away from explicit sexual material?

Because their young mind is too immature and they will ask another hundred more questions As they enter teen years, then I think they should be exposed to sex education , so they don't end up being Johnny appleseed or naive and pregnant.

I don't see why most people see sex as such a taboo subject, that we must avoid discussing with our kids. However at the sametime, I 'm not going to buy little Johnny the latest issue of Playboy magazine either.

Anyhow, I do prefer to see my kids, save it for until they are married. I would do my best to convince them that if they are not financially ready or responsible for the offsprings, then they should refrain from it.

Is the reason you want to keep your children from sexually explicit material really the questions they will ask?

m4jor_p41n wrote:

Anyhow, I do prefer to see my kids, save it for until they are married. I would do my best to convince them that if they are not financially ready or responsible for the offsprings, then they should refrain from it.

Good to know. Does this mean you would prefer it to the point of reprimanding your children for getting involved in it earlier? And, if you don't mind me asking a question of a more personal nature, does this mean that you yourself will put it off until marriage?

We are getting too personal now aren't we? I think we are straying a little bit from the Impulse topic ---> moral values and now to parenting. No comment on the parenting issue..

As for me, I'm a responsible adult that will not deny my sexual impulse with another responsible and consenting adult, even out of marriage.

Well, I've gone as far as I can then. At least you have some things to think about....

Not necessarily, denying our own impulses does not mean that we are denying the very thing that makes us human.

Animals have impulses, which they do not deny, does that make them human? As a matter of thought, is there any creature on this planet that does not deny its own impulse or instincts and act as nature has intended it? I would think that humans are the only creatures on earth that can do such a thing. We can go against the programming of our primitive nature.

And so, I would say that if we deny that we have the ability to deny our own impulses, then we are denying that which makes us human.
(Mouse had it all backwards )

Good, so you agree.

looks like its 50/50 split interesting!

It is true.
But it is a positive thing, if you read Buddhist texts they say that of you manage to rid yourself of all impulses and wants then you will attain true happiness and Buddha status.
If you have no desires you can never be sad because you will never be disappointed or longing for something you cant or don’t have.

Who says that animals cant deny?It has never been proven nor disproven, they jus hav less consequences. I mean imagine if u were a chimp, what are the pros and cons of screwing another.
pros:1.Populate and keep the species alive 2. Make the species stronger by mixing genes. 3. Pleasure(u neva kno )
cons:ummm....ummmm....none! exactly but now we have morality and the jail factor so we would control.

Denying our impulses is not what prevents us from being animals because our impulses will be different from those of an animal. What we deny when we deny OUR impulses is HUMAN impulses. We have THESE impulses BECAUSE we are human. To deny them makes us, what, something less than human?

Here's where your idea seems to gain more depth since lots of philosophers talk about overcoming the 'base self' (Kant for one). Reason overcoming compulsion. The point here is that by overcoming our impulses we become something greater than the human - we become what Nietzsche would call the 'higher man'.

Are there ne books on this topic or websites?

I can't say I've ever had the impulse to rape.