»Is The Matrix Online canonical?«

And why, or why not?

What do you think?

The purpose of a question, p4th, is to find out what others think and in this case, reason. Do you have anything to add at this time? Or is your question dismissive, as in "of course it is and this is a silly question"?

Well.. you know what I believe about MxO, don't you?

On the other hand, I don't know what you do think. So, what do you think intell?

th3 p4th wrote:

Well.. you know what I believe about MxO, don't you?

No. No I don't. This is why I'm asking.

th3 p4th wrote:

On the other hand, I don't know what you do think. So, what do you think intell?

Dude, if I wanted to talk about what I think, you know I would not phrase the name of the thread as a question.

Later for that. Let others get a chance to respond, then we'll probably get into that. I hope that's O.K. with you.

Ok, no problem.

As I have stated before, I believe that the MxO is not canonical for one simple reason: the script is not the Ws script.

Even if they first read it and have to approve it (as they claimed that they would do) it's not the product of their imagination.

Perhaps it's brilliant, and it fits perfectly (but hey, really.. does it?), but this doesn't convince me.

Now, you might tell me:

Aliens is written & directed by different people and it has a different feeling thatn the original, but that doesn't make it non canonical[or not brilliant].

But the ideas and concepts of the Matrix Trilogy were being developed by the Brothers for a whole decade [1993 - 2003].... I can't see how a video game that was not designed, written and/or directed by the Ws can be the continuation of their ideas.

th3 p4th wrote:

Ok, no problem. As I have stated before, I believe that the MxO is not canonical for one simple reason: the script is not the Ws script. Even if they first read it and have to approve it (as they claimed that they would do) it's not the product of their imagination. Perhaps it's brilliant, and it fits perfectly (but hey, really.. does it?), but this doesn't convince me. Now, you might tell me: Aliens is written & directed by different people and it has a different feeling thatn the original, but that doesn't make it non canonical[or not brilliant]. But the ideas and concepts of the Matrix Trilogy were being developed by the Brothers for a whole decade [1993 - 2003].... I can't see how a video game that was not designed, written and/or directed by the Ws can be the continuation of their ideas.

Are the concepts of the Matrix Trilogy their ideas?

And the 10 year period you speak of - was that spent creating the ideas or the story that would serve as the vehicle to deliver the ideas? And how much of that time was spent doing things such as preparing how the films would present the story? And what takes longer to prepare a film or a video game? Clue: which one costs the most to produce?

Hm... Not the concepts themselves but the decision to talk about them/express them/visually represent them. Do the new script writers/that comic artist guy feel the same way?

EDIT

aargh you edited.

intell wrote:

And the 10 year period you speak of - was that spent creating the ideas or the story that would serve as the vehicle to deliver the ideas? And how much of that time was spent doing things such as preparing how the films would present the story?

I don't know. Do you? How so?

intell wrote:

And what takes longer to prepare a film or a video game? Clue: which one costs the most to produce?

Film.[*] But I don't remember them talking about any video game that would come after the films. They only talked about an anime they wanted to produce and a video game that its story would be a part of the sequels, that they wanted to write/direct.


[*] That's not always the case. Half Life 2 was being developed for 5-6 years. 2-3 years developing time is not something uncommon for videogames. And Duke Nukem Forever is being developed.. for.. FOREVER! LOL

en.wikipedia.org...

Quote:

Duke Nukem Forever (DNF) is a first-person shooter video game being developed by 3D Realms, and is the next game in the Duke Nukem series. It is notable for its protracted development schedule, which began in 1997.

Most people believe that they will never finish it.

th3 p4th wrote:

Hm... Not the concepts themselves but the decision to talk about them/express them/visually represent them. Do the new script writers/that comic artist guy feel the same way?

Do you think that having the answer to this question is important to what you say about canonicity? Do you think knowing the proportion of time each source put into actually writing (compiling) would be relevant.

And about what they mentioned in advance, some things such as the commentaries were an after thought. But does that in itself, bear on canonicity? I'm not arguing against, just asking how you arrive at the conclusion.

intell wrote:

th3 p4th wrote: Hm... Not the concepts themselves but the decision to talk about them/express them/visually represent them. Do the new script writers/that comic artist guy feel the same way? Do you think that having the answer to this question is important to what you say about canonicity?

Yep. Think about Alien and Aliens. Yes, the story could advance that way, but doesn't it feel like a completely different movie?

intell wrote:

And about what they mentioned in advance, some things such as the commentaries were an after thought. But does that in itself, bear on canonicity?

That's not a very good example. They had to put some commentaries. Even if they didn't suggest the critics Vs philosophers thing, Warner would eventually think of something. There is not a single boxset that comes without commentaries.

I feel that the movies were created because the Brothers wanted to express these concepts/ideas[it was their idea to make these films, not the producer's, as it usually happens in Hollywood] AND make a career as film makers, while MxO was created because Warner wanted to sell more Matrix franchise products.

Almost all of the blockbuster films get a videogame. And the succesfull Trilogies that feature a war between races/worlds/galaxies/species/whatever also get some sort of online (RPG) videogame. Think about Star Wars and LOTR.

Funny. You say the commentaries are not a good example, yet you show exactly how they do parallel the game. As I said, they are both after thoughts. And you say that they are givens that movies come with commentaries and movies that feature wars will be turned into a video game. So you make a response to your own statement about why you didn't see or hear them talking about doing either in advance (not necessarily saying that this is true, either). So, are the commentaries canonical?

th3 p4th wrote:

...while MxO was created because Warner wanted to sell more Matrix franchise products.

I felt like the franchising started to get out of control with Reloaded. All the PowerAde commercials and the "Matrix phone" (which looked terrible compared to the ones in M1, imo).

I felt like even "Enter the Matrix" was largely ruined by becoming a Matrix "product." They rushed it out, the storyline didn't feel finished to me (in that, wouldn't you assume that Ghost and Niobe should have separate storylines, not just the same storyline substituting each one in as the main character).

And now all the way into MXO land: the brothers don't seem to have much interest in the Matrix anymore and have moved on to other things.

intell wrote:

So, are the commentaries canonical?

Some critics and philosophers give us their opinions about the films. I can't see how they can be considered as canonical as long as they are not writers/directors/producers/cast/crew commentaries.

Can Evo's commentaries be considered canonical?

CaptPostMod wrote:

I felt like the franchising started to get out of control with Reloaded. All the PowerAde commercials and the "Matrix phone" (which looked terrible compared to the ones in M1, imo).

They needed lots of money to produce them and the commercials helped. That didn't happen with Revolutions too, cause they already had the required budget.

CaptPostMod wrote:

I felt like even "Enter the Matrix" was largely ruined by becoming a Matrix "product." They rushed it out, the storyline didn't feel finished to me (in that, wouldn't you assume that Ghost and Niobe should have separate storylines, not just the same storyline substituting each one in as the main character).

The problem is not with the writers but with the game developers. The game is buggy. And I mean really buggy. It feels really rushed. That happened because they wanted to release it the same day with Reloaded. Give some time to the developers next time, will you?

(However PoN sucks too.)

I can't see any problem with Ghost's/Niobe's storylines, a lot of games use a similar techique.

CaptPostMod wrote:

And now all the way into MXO land: the brothers don't seem to have much interest in the Matrix anymore and have moved on to other things.

th3 p4th wrote:

I can't see any problem with Ghost's/Niobe's storylines, a lot of games use a similar techique.

I just assumed it would be one of those games where the separate characters represented separate paths. Like in the first scene: As it is now, if you pick Ghost you go as Ghost and invade the post office to retrieve the drop and in the end Niobe shows up having worked her way in independently.

When I replayed that scene as Niobe, I assumed that you'd follow her separate path in (all different levels) to save Ghost, not to pick up the drop. And the cinematic would still play out as it did with you (as Niobe) reaching Ghost and saving the day.

But instead you play the same sequence you played as Ghost and the cinematic is reversed.

So if "Enter the Matrix" were taken as cannon, who actually picked up the drop and who saved the day, Ghost or Niobe?

I know there are games that do use separate stories (like Alone in the Dark). And I was really dissappointed by "Enter the Matrix" not doing that.

Not to mention all those glitches!

edit: I forgot to actually say that I think that might have been a rushed development thing too. The way the story was laid out, it looked like there were suppossed to be separate paths for Niobe and Ghost (like they'd been written), but the game developers got cheap and just combined things and flipped characters for the same scenarios.

Hm, maybe.

I remember I was so excited that a matrix game was released that I bought it for 60 euros (pretty expensive, uh?) and quickly finished it in about 5-6 hours. I found it buggy, uninteresting, and short.

When PoN was released I pirated the game, a choice that I will never regret. It was as bad as EtM. (especially the PC version of the game, that suffers from BAD graphics, and lots of bugs. I hate games ported from the consoles )

Yeah, I paid something like $55 for EtM (which was the most I'd spent on a video game in years, usually when I have the urge to play a game I just grab something fun looking out of the discount bargain bin). And I agree: short, buggy, not overly fun.

I didn't even bother with PoN. I just watched the cinematics people uploaded online! Never even tried playing it.

th3 p4th wrote:

Some critics and philosophers give us their opinions about the films. I can't see how they can be considered as canonical as long as they are not writers/directors/producers/cast/crew commentaries. Can Evo's commentaries be considered canonical?

The critics and philosophers were invited. Ev wasn't yet. But not bad work at all.

Looking forward to Kalki's and his commentary on Rel.

But, yeah. That's a difference.

You guys spent all that on EtM? Shoulda pirated that one, too, hehe.

I only spent $13 on Tekken Tag Tournament back then.

@ th3 p4th,

If your criteria of what is canonical is that it depends on who the writer is, why, in your opinion, is there such a mix of canonical and non canonical material on the 10-dvd box set? I mean, considering that there was alot of matrix stuff that was apparently excluded from the set, such as comics, sites like this one, and other anime about the matrix.

I would say that the story from the Matrix Online is canon, but the writing is not as good as the movies. The Wachowski Brothers worked on the first year's storyline (now stretched way past a single year) with Paul Chadwick, then gave him their blessing to carry the torch. That blessing is what makes Paul Chadwick's writing canon. Whether you LIKE it as much as the movies is a different matter altogether.

Feral Boy wrote:

I would say that the story from the Matrix Online is canon, but the writing is not as good as the movies. The Wachowski Brothers worked on the first year's storyline (now stretched way past a single year) with Paul Chadwick, then gave him their blessing to carry the torch. That blessing is what makes Paul Chadwick's writing canon. Whether you LIKE it as much as the movies is a different matter altogether.

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout! And you're helping to stir the pot, btw.

I think that MxO is canon. Again, although the author(s) of the game's storyline are not the brothers themselves, they do have the Bros' blessing and more importantly, the Brothers themselves do not view themselves as the final authority on The Matrix series. In their written introduction to The Ultimate Matrix Collection, they talk about how the creative process for them is more collaborative and what a film or product means depends entirely on the viewer. Therefore, both th3_p4th and Feral Boy and everyone else can all be right in their own way.
However, if you want my opinion, again, I feel that it is canon. A lot of non-Wachowski Brothers material can be and is considered canon; why would they spend money on developing the Animatrix and allow the comics on the official website to be there if they could not be considered canonical?
In fact, the only Matrix product that directly conflicts with the films is The Matrix: Path of Neo, and, ironically, that was written by the Wachowski Brothers themselves, albeit as more of a non sequitur than as a serious addition to the Matrix franchise, but you get the point.

P.S. We could use some more information about what's going on in the Matrix, Feral Boy (your reports on Pandora's Box were amazing). I mean, I read the MxO forums all the time, but there's a lot I feel I don't know. Perhaps, as discussed in another thread, we could create a project dedicated to archiving information from The Matrix Online?

Is "The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay" canonical?

en.wikipedia.org...

I didn't know Riddick had an underlying philosophical thread. Does it?

intell wrote:

I didn't know Riddick had an underlying philosophical thread. Does it?

Does it matter if it has or not?

-- I didn't watch the Riddick movies.