»I'm BACK!«

After discussing religion on this and other forums, I think I have discovered the major differences between atheists, agnostics, and believers.

atheist: Someone who, after doing wrong, rejects his heart and rationalizes in his mind that what he is doing is NOT wrong (because morals are just a made up method of control). - problems: Total inconsistancy. Everyones opinion of right and wrong are equally valid. How then do we have the right to punish criminals?

agnostic: Someone who, after doing wrong, partially realizes the wrong, but sees that others are just as fallible. Therefore, if there is a God, he assumes that since he is comparably good to his idea of an average person, God should accept him. - problems: Continuation of the wrongdoing leads to a corrupted conscience and a dimishing ability to distinguish between right and wrong. After a time, he no longer sees what he does as wrong, and when confronted will use the atheist's logic.

Believer: Someone who, after doing what he knows is wrong, realizes his mistake, asks forgiveness, and continues his life with the same realization that what he did was wrong. - leads to consistancy


Now, I'm sure I'm gunna get alot of flack for this....
Well, BRING IT ON.

DANG! I was afraid this thread might be moved here.... oh well.

stinkz wrote:

DANG! I was afraid this thread might be moved here.... oh well.

Well, where else than in the chit-chat? This post is not directly related to the matrix and I don't have any "general philosophy" board.

If you would relate it to "Matrix" I could move it to the symbols forum.

thats alright... I'll post some matrix-related material on one of the other threads. I just know that this post probably won't get replied to here.

@Stinkz:

Hehe, had to answer your thread...

You don't define what "wrong" is. You use the bible as a way of defining what is right and wrong. Other people use other devices. Like their brain. If I do something I think is wrong, I would realize my mistake, and continue my life with the same realization that what I did was wrong. So there is just the difference in asking fogiveness, but I often ask and grant myself this, so we are really just the same.

That is where you're wrong. People, from birth can realize right and wrong... at least the first time they do it. However, our conscience can quickly be corrupted. Lets just use a small petty example.

Do you remember the first time you cursed? I do. I remember I was really mad at my mom and I cursed under my breath after she left the room. I felt so guilty about it that I ended up crying that night. However... what happens after this? The next time it is easier to cuss. The next time it is even easier. This went on until I started using cussing under my breath almost normally as a way to vent anger. Eventually, my parents heard me say (in a normal voice) what they thought to be my first cuss word.
Would I have so immediately rejected my parent's counsel (which I found later was based on the Bible) and cursed to her face? No. It was a corruption of my conscience as I kept continuing in my wrongdoing which allowed me to reject it.
Now that I am older, do I rationalize in my head that "I can curse whenever I want because I don't feel that its wrong?" No. I know it is wrong... or at least I did before this corruption. Now I look to the Bible and see that it says... "do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth" and choose not to continue in my evil.

This idea is not restricted to just little things like cursing. How can hardened criminals murder without feeling a thing? It is because, as the name implies, they have been "hardened." No one would senselessly murder several people just because they "figured out" that it is ok to do so... they know it's wrong. Only after commiting evil acts (because of anger or some other circumstance) is the rationalization necessary.

I know that in my life I may do things which I should know are wrong, because I have been hardened to them. Therefore I use the truthful standard of the Bible to find areas in my life where I may be going wrong. This is the only way I can become "unhardened" or purify my conscience once again.

In today's society, children can't even watch TV without having sexual images portrayed to them. This makes them "hardened" or "desensitized" very early. Should we really be surprised that there is a rise of sexual perversions which accompanies this? I mean... I find it sick that the main topic of discussion at my college orientation was different ways of transmitting sexual diseases, and the best counsel they could give was... "use a condom."

It is not the words that come out of your mouth that matters, but what the words mean to the person you say them to.

If you tell a person that he or she won't go to a beautiful place after they die if they don't believe in Jesus, I see that as worse than all the curse words in the galaxy.

It is a terrible curse... but it is the curse of humanity. We brought it upon ourselves. Just look at the imperfections in this world... hate, war, anger, jealosy, and the like. We are all tainted by these. These are the curse on humanity which arose from Adam's rejection of God. As rejecters of God on a daily basis, we rightfully deserve to be separate from him. However... God loved us despite us, and sent his Son to die in our place. This way he show us his love and mercy... while still justly punishing our sin.

stinkz wrote:

It is a terrible curse... but it is the curse of humanity. We brought it upon ourselves. Just look at the imperfections in this world... hate, war, anger, jealosy, and the like. We are all tainted by these. These are the curse on humanity which arose from Adam's rejection of God. As rejecters of God on a daily basis, we rightfully deserve to be separate from him. However... God loved us despite us, and sent his Son to die in our place. This way he show us his love and mercy... while still justly punishing our sin.

What is so special about sacrificing your son? There are many people in this world that sends their children away to die for some greater good, but they don't get the same amount of credit for it as God does.

emp wrote:

What is so special about sacrificing your son? There are many people in this world that sends their children away to die for some greater good, but they don't get the same amount of credit for it as God does.

Perhaps you will never know until you have one. I have seen the devastation in a parents eyes at the death of a child. They would wish their own death before that of their child. It is hard to give ones own life, but it's even harder to give the life of someone you truly love. And what greater love is there than between parent and child? God was trying to show us that His love is greater than the greatest love man can experience. At the same time, it shows Jesus (God) giving His life for man's sake. "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend." God shows us the greatest of all possible human love, while at the same time showing us that his love exceeds that which we can even experience.

@stinkz:

Yeah, losing your children is bad. But my point was something else...

What if I convinced my future son to move to a country with a dictatorship, and oppose the ruler in a way that would make people follow my son. If he was killed for his believes, which were the best for the people, would that make me equal to God?

I could give you some commandments too.

emp wrote:

What if I convinced my future son to move to a country with a dictatorship, and oppose the ruler in a way that would make people follow my son. If he was killed for his believes, which were the best for the people, would that make me equal to God?

No. You are not perfect, and neither is your son. Do you know what hurt Christ the most? Was it the physical pain of death he recieved? No. It was when he took on our sin and God turned his back on Him. God was forced to reject His son on our behalf.

I do not know to what extent you will love your son. However, I know that it would be difficult for you to send him or even allow him to make his own decision to go somewhere where he may be in danger of losing his life. However, your son, whether or not he is put in a dangerous situation, will die, eventually. God's son, however, did not have to die. You see? The love you will have for your son will only be but a mere humanly understandable picture of God's love.

emp wrote:

If he was killed for his believes,

Jesus was not killed for his beliefs. He was killed because we rejected Him.

Like I was saying before... these things God shows us are only a portrayal, in our own finite terms, of the unexplainable. We, as humans, cannot even put our heads around all that it means to be God. How can God know all, yet not cause it to happen? How could he give something a choice, while not making the choice himself? God understands our imperfections and therefore explains Himself to us in ways we can understand. This is why Jesus often answered puzzling questions with a parable. We cannot even fully understand every implication of Christ's death. However, we need to trust in Him to cover our imperfections and allow us to be reconciled to God.

@Stinkz:

Quote:

God was forced to reject His son on our behalf.

Who forced him?

I know. Himself. And why did he create us? Was it something about him being lonely? In any case, he puts us through shit he is doing to himself, and the ones that don't figure it out before they die, is rejected from heaven. It's a bad deal. Even if you could prove your God existed, I still wouldn't like him, and thus not go to heaven.

Anyway, I don't think you should follow a god that forces himself to do horrible stuff when he could have done so much better. If he just could have started out with inner peace, we could all be born straight into heaven.

Quote:

God understands our imperfections and therefore explains Himself to us in ways we can understand.

Well, the way the Christian God has explained himself to me, at times when I was very open for him to have the answers, has not made me understand him.

To me he seems like a super intelligence run wild in moral dilemmas and creating multiple personalities (satan and the angels and the human race, etc.) and a universe where relatively independent choices are possible. Then he watches himself search for himself, and only a small percentage of himself finds back to himself. The rest of himself he send to damnation. The man got issues. I just wish he wouldn't bother me.

To corrupted beings, it does seem like a bad deal. However, it is a tremendous one. God gave humans a choice. He sojourned with them in a place of paradise with only one stipulation: Don't eat of one tree. We were meant for a perfect place. Adam rejected God and was cast out. It would have been righteous for God to turn his back on his creation at that point, however, He loved us, so He didn't. Therefore, He gave us another chance through his Son. His Son took the penalty for our choice, and now God can be reconciled to those who once rejected Him, showing His mercy. How is this not a good deal?

emp wrote:

In any case, he puts us through shit he is doing to himself

He is not putting us through this. He only put us through one thing... the Garden of Eden. The rest is the result of ourselves.

As I have said before, just because we were created by God, doesn't mean that we are God. God created us with a choice. We chose to reject him. Our bad choice is the cause of all our problems, which God solved through the person of Jesus Christ.

stinkz wrote:

After discussing religion on this and other forums, I think I have discovered the major differences between atheists, agnostics, and believers. atheist: [self righteous swill] agnostic: [more self righteous jerkery] Believer: [self serving swill] Now, I'm sure I'm gunna get alot of flack for this.... Well, BRING IT ON.

Way to go patting yourself on the back for being a "believer"! Or were you trying to make others feel inferior? Hard to tell. Its funny how you try to promote yourself on this board by claiming to represent Christ who never condemned ANYONE (prostitutes, theives, etc) except for self righteous religious men.

You have misunderstood me. I am not trying to be self-righteous. I am admitting that I am not righteous. I know that I do wrong. Nothing will change that. What I am saying is that a believer has this realization of his own wrongdoing.

The Pharisees believed themselves to be righteous when they were not. They were hypocritical and looked down on everyone else. When they saw Jesus hanging out with tax-collectors and sinners, they also looked down on Him. Jesus pointed out that his message was not to those who think themselves already righteous (the Pharisees), but to those who realize their wrong (the humble).

I am not trying to pat myself on the back for being a believer. I am simply explaining why I am one. I understand my own fallacy, and freely admit that I do wrong. How is this making others feel inferior? If anything, I am inferior. I do not claim to represent Christ and never have. Christ is my representative, not the other way around.

It saddens me to see that so many people see Christians as having a "holier-than-thou" attitude, and undoubtedly, many do. After one follows a set of rules and precepts for a long time, it sometimes is difficult for him to think that he is capable of something which seems so wrong. However, one must realize that, given the right (or should I say wrong) situations, he could be capable of the most terrible of evils.

If I have come across with this kind of attitude elsewhere on the forum, I apologize.