»Agent smith represents..... a figure in Christianity«

I am about to open a discussion which undoubtedly will lead to a religious discussion, "stinkz" will definetly post here at least once hehehehe.

I've been thinking about the metaphor of Neo being like Jesus (a messiah). I've since tried to classify other characters from the movies keeping in mind that the Matrix Trilogy is not the bible, but rather borrows from it. I have come to think of the Architect as God. He after all has created the Matrix and can forsee things before they happen. Well then, this opens the debate.... Agent Smith is Lucifer.

Think about this in the context of Chrisitianity. God's angel, Lucifer, desired power which is why he was disobediant and was ultimately cast out of heaven. Parallel this to : The Architect's Agent, Agent Smith, desired power, which is why he stayed in the Matrix, disobeying what he was supposed to do, gaining power as he devoured everyone in the Matrix.

Does this mean that Agents represent Angels.... hahaha. Not really. After all, in a black and white spectrum, the general consensus is that Angels are inherentingly good, while Agents are bad. But the parallel to this thinking raises another question.

God created Jesus in his likeness. Could it be that the Architect created Neo. Perhaps a program that created a program. Perhaps something else entirely, but in his likeness.

On another note... If one views the Architect as God, and we know that Neo goes to visit the Machine God (Deus Ex Machina), are these two beings the same. There has been much debate, saying that the Machine God has the face of baby, but why would that be? It makes more sense that the face is that of the Architect.

There's a lot to think about here. I hope I get a response out of some of you.

how about we do some reading of Revelations?

or

how about you read it and find parallels to this topic

I don't know about all the Biblical allusions put into the Matrix. I mean... its obvious that they put alot of stuff in there... but I doubt theres some elaborate Biblical theme throughout the whole movie. I mean... Neo is obviously paralleled to Christ, either that or an antichrist, cuz people call him their savior. Yet, his lover is Trinity. How does that tie in? Is it representing Christ's love for God? But then, Christ IS God!
I dunno, the Church is called the bride of Christ so if Neo was going to be in love with anything, it should be something alluding to the Church. Maybe since God resides in the Church (his people) this is why she is called Trinity... but that seems to be stretching it. Now, with Cypher it was obvious that they were going for a satan allusion. However, Cypher is in the position of killing Neo at one point. Where in the Bible is Satan ever in the position of killing Christ? I guess at Christ's death on the cross, but then Christ was giving himself up, which doesn't parallel the incident.

I think that the names were in there to give you a gist of the person's character. Cypher was named such because he was a deciever. Neo is the "new man." Trinity... i dunno... she's Godlike in some way?

I had this theory once that Neo was supposed to be like the 6th Jesus or something. The five previous "ones" included adam and Jesus. That sounds like a new age/buddhist/humanist idea that the Wachowskis might buy into. I mean, alot of people on this forum believe that Jesus, Mohammed, and other religious figures were all just realizing their "human potential." Maybe this is what the Wachowskis are saying.

I don't think the Matrix is 100% parallel to the bible, the W Brothers said that Neo represents a general mesiah, not any one in particular, almost every religion has one, Jesus is just arguably(by some) the most popular and the most powerful, so that's why he comes to mind, but Neo isn't really exactly like anyone. After All, Jesus didn't walk in slow motion and beat the crap out of people with a pipe. Although Smith does resemble a rebelious head strong fellow, kind of like the confederacy in the civil war, he does make everyone his slaves by taking them over.

Neo and Smith are one and the same...How can I convince you of this?
I have always been convinced about Neos and Smiths connection...

THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME
OPPOSING FORCES
OPPOSITES BUT EQUALS
OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE SAME COIN
BLACK/WHITE
DARKNESS/LIGHT....
THEY ARE A HARMONY
THEY ARE A BALANCE........
You cannot have a force that is completely GOOD, there has to be an equal and opposing BAD....
Do I make myself clear.......YET

But if you make yourself CLEAR, then you must be making yourself UNCLEAR at the same time. No wait... that doesn't make any sense.
Good and bad are not in harmony. That idea is absurd.
Everything in life doesn't fall into this "two sides of the same coin" category. And especially not good and evil.

Lets say I was walking by an old woman and she falls down. If I stop and help her up... I'm doing something good! If instead I start kicking her to death... I would be doing bad! Which should I do? Should I kick her first, then help her up? Should I help her up, then kick her down? No. That is absurd.

Do you not understand OPPOSITES?
There are opposing forces EVERYWHERE ~ There has to be..
I really don't know how I can explain this any other way than I already have .... GOOD/BAD
BLACK/WHITE
RICH/POOR
INTELLIGENT/STUPID
GOD/DEVIL
FAT/THIN
HEAVY/LIGHT
HEAVEN/HELL
MALE/FEMALE
INTROVERT/EXTROVERT...... If you don't understand what I'm trying to say now then, lets just say that Revolutions WILL prove me right.. I've always held with this particular theory, as you have seen from some of my early posts ~ I'm certainly not going to change my mind now

stinkz wrote:

Good and bad are not in harmony. That idea is absurd.

Do you wear a full length body condom?

Everything just bounces off you doesn't it.

What is your definition of Good?
What is your definition of Evil?

And What is it that's exactly in between?

marl64 wrote:

stinkz wrote: Good and bad are not in harmony. That idea is absurd. Do you wear a full length body condom? Everything just bounces off you doesn't it.

I really do wish I could have come-up with that witty - ditty !

HolEavataR wrote:

Does this mean that Agents represent Angels.... hahaha. Not really. After all, in a black and white spectrum, the general consensus is that Angels are inherentingly good, while Agents are bad.

Hmmm, what are you using as a basis for this conclusion?

Agents are the protectors of their world. They eliminate external threats and maintain order.

Surely they are only "Bad" from the point of view of the humans.

And consequently, this Zion mob who keep breaking into their world and disrupting things are "Bad" from the point of view of the machines.

Everything is relative to the viewpoint you hold.

Ok retards... I'm not saying that good and evil are not opposites. I'm just saying that they aren't "in harmony" as you so eloquently put it. They are not two sides to the same coin. Contrary to the eastern philosopy, good and evil do not have to find an equilibrium. Good should be rewarded, bad should be punished. The more good, the better. The more bad, the worse. This concept seems simple to me... but you all aren't grasping it.

What theory Another Smith? The theory of opposites? The theory that opposites exist? Neo and Smith could be construed as opposites. However, that doesn't make them the same person.

stinkz wrote:

Ok retards...

Spot the Christian Where's your forgiveness and understanding?

stinkz wrote:

They are not two sides to the same coin.

OK, show me a one sided coin then.

stinkz wrote:

Good should be rewarded, bad should be punished.

But not before they are clearly defined.

Quote:

The more good, the better. The more bad, the worse. This concept seems simple to me... but you all aren't grasping it.

So what if all Evil is eradicated, Totally, no exceptions.

Would Good deeds still be good? Or would they just be Deeds.

Would the bar move up? would the "not as good" become the "almost evil"?

Do you understand the concept that's being expressed here?

marl64 wrote:

Spot the Christian Where's your forgiveness and understanding?

Your fallacious "ad hominem" remarks are unnecessary.

marl64 wrote:

OK, show me a one sided coin then.

Just because all coins are two-sided doesn't mean that all aspects of life must follow your coin analogy.

marl64 wrote:

But not before they are clearly defined.

Exactly... however, with everyone selfishly seeking their own definitions, ones that justify everything they do as "right," the true definitions will never be found. However, right and wrong are clearly laid out in the Bible, which America was founded upon. It is a tried and true basis for right and wrong. Its sad to see that the Bible has been and continues to be pushed out of America to allow corruption to take over.

marl64 wrote:

So what if all Evil is eradicated, Totally, no exceptions.

Evil cannot and never will be fully eradicated (until the return of Christ). People are innately evil, and even when brought up morally still have a tendency towards corruption. This is why people say that "power corrupts." Because the less you are held accountable, the more likely you are to do wrong.

marl64 wrote:

Would the bar move up? would the "not as good" become the "almost evil"?

There is no such thing as "almost evil." When a person walks by and watches a helpless old person be mugged, what he did was evil. If the person argues... "there was nothing I could do!" it was still evil. The problem we have is that we are so fallible that we lack an understanding of what it means to be perfect. Though, for us, perfection is impossible to achieve, we should still strive for it.

i don't know why it posted twice... but I deleted the second one.

stinkz wrote:

marl64 wrote: So what if all Evil is eradicated, Totally, no exceptions. Evil cannot and never will be fully eradicated (until the return of Christ).

"You didn't answer my question."

Your viewpoint is so narrow you couldn't even debate a hypothetical idea

if you get rid of evil, will there still be good?

if you get rid of hate, will there still be love?

if you get rid of death, will there still be life?

if you get rid of the sane, will there still be the insane?


a coin may have two faces, but what keeps those two faces together?

a cohesion of two forces is needed for either to exist, take away one, the other goes with it

stinkz

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People are innately evil, and even when brought up morally still have a tendency towards corruption. This is why people say that "power corrupts." Because the less you are held accountable, the more likely you are to do wrong.

not necessarily true, in fact, it is not true.
if people are inherently evil, then they are also inherently good.
people are not totally evil or totally good

Quote:

Evil cannot and never will be fully eradicated (until the return of Christ).

how do we know that this is true?

take the war on terrorism for example. the bush administration has declared a perpetual war that can never cease.
even if you kill all terrorists or people with terrorist intentions, that does not mean that someone else won't show up that will be a terrorist. this war is like a war against evil, the bush administration believes it is doing good, but most of the world believes it is doing evil. how can you fight a war on terror when your prime tactic is terror? Shock and Awe or bomb the shit out of everything so they will be terrified of us and won't have the will to fight?

Quote:

There is no such thing as "almost evil." When a person walks by and watches a helpless old person be mugged, what he did was evil. If the person argues... "there was nothing I could do!" it was still evil. The problem we have is that we are so fallible that we lack an understanding of what it means to be perfect. Though, for us, perfection is impossible to achieve, we should still strive for it

what is perfection?
if it is doing what is good, what is right then could you not also be perfect at doing what is evil, what is wrong?

Quote:

However, right and wrong are clearly laid out in the Bible, which America was founded upon. It is a tried and true basis for right and wrong. Its sad to see that the Bible has been and continues to be pushed out of America to allow corruption to take over.

what is the basis as laid out in the bible for right and wrong? do not tell me to read the bible, it is a big book and not a quick read, write out here for us all to see what this basis is.

marl64... I did answer your question. If all evil was irradicated, Christ would have returned and all would be worshipping God who is Holy and merciful.
Your viewpoint is so narrow that you can't even understand when a person answers your question.

Thank you esc... but you are just restating what they said. Some of the things you said do exist in duality, such as sane/insane (which is arbitrarily decided by psychologists anyway) and the two faces of a coin. However, without death... life still exists. Without hate... love still exists. Without evil, perfection exists.

esc wrote:

people are not totally evil or totally good

Very good. We do have an inkling towards what is good which can be understood as our conscience. However, the fact that we even partly desire to do evil corrupts our entire being. It is like having 1 bad egg in something you're cooking. One spoils the whole batch and it is no longer suitable for eating.

esc wrote:

take the war on terrorism for example. the bush administration has declared a perpetual war that can never cease. even if you kill all terrorists or people with terrorist intentions, that does not mean that someone else won't show up that will be a terrorist. this war is like a war against evil, the bush administration believes it is doing good, but most of the world believes it is doing evil. how can you fight a war on terror when your prime tactic is terror? Shock and Awe or bomb the shit out of everything so they will be terrified of us and won't have the will to fight?

Yes... it is a never-ending war. However, the fact that many people do wrong and won't stop doesn't mean that they shouldn't be punished for it. The fact that alot of people think that the war is unjustified doesn't negate the fact that having a cruel dictator which promotes terrorist acts is wrong. Bush is rightly concerned for the welfare and safety of the American people and is doing what he can to ensure that another terrible act like 9-11 won't happen again.
Face the facts. Terrorism is wrong and should be ended.

esc wrote:

if it is doing what is good, what is right then could you not also be perfect at doing what is evil, what is wrong?

One does not have to be "perfect" at doing evil to be evil. One single act is enough to corrupt the person.

esc wrote:

what is the basis as laid out in the bible for right and wrong? do not tell me to read the bible, it is a big book and not a quick read, write out here for us all to see what this basis is.

Does everything in life have to be a "quick read" for you to consider it?

stinkz wrote:

marl64... I did answer your question. If all evil was irradicated, Christ would have returned and all would be worshipping God who is Holy and merciful.

You responded to my premise, you didn't answer my question.

Would Good deeds still be good? Or would they just be Deeds.

Quote:

Your viewpoint is so narrow that you can't even understand when a person answers your question.

@ STINKZ ~ Are you really so totally brain-washed by your beliefs?
You seem to churn-up the same old hash over and over again...

So you are telling us that there are opposites for 'certain' things, but not for others, (sane/insane)... You are not logical... And you don't seem to want to listen or learn to anything from the posters on this site - You come up with the same old Bible mentality...

I was brought up a Catholic - So you don't need to quote the Bible to me..I learned that it is full of hipocracy and, dare I say it lies...

So when is Jesus due then ? He's been expected at the end of every Century....still no sign... HE IS NOT COMING, HE WAS NOT THE SON OF GOD...An immaculte conception ?- sounds more like an alien implantation to me...
If you really want to split hairs we are all classed sons and daughters of God... and we all have our good and bad points - oh another opposite!

The Age of Pisces is over, we're entering the age of Aquarius.

halexandria.org...

Another Smith wrote:

An immaculte conception ?- sounds more like an alien implantation to me...

The father of Josh was Joseph of Arimathea. This is the belief of the Merovingians.

marl64 wrote:

The Age of Pisces is over

wave.net...

knnknn wrote:

This is the belief of the Merovingians.

I've always like their take on the holy grail / blood of christ thing - it seems so much more plausable than the traditional view.

knnknn wrote:

marl64 wrote: The Age of Pisces is over wave.net...

You know Stinkz is gonna freak after seeing that

marl64... to answer your ridiculous second question... yes, good deeds would still be good.

Another Smith... once again you claim that I am saying that good and bad are not opposites... which has nothing to do with what I am saying. Are you so totally brainwashed by your longing to do wrong that you actually see it as equal to right? Yes, humans have good and bad points... like I said. However, the good points should be nurtured to grow while the bad points should be removed or lessened where possible.

What I am trying to say is that good and bad are not equal. They can be thought of as opposites, but they are not the same. Everyone knows this. Trying to rationalize wrong because it is "the same" as right doesn't justify it.

The Bible is not hypocritical. Christians can be. But the Bible is not. Hypocrisy is one of the main things Jesus was pointing out was wrong with the Pharisees. Do not lie can be found in commandment 9 and is repeated by Christ.
I can see why you're so adimately against the Bible. No unbeliever WANTS the Bible to be true because, if it is, that means that they might be in need of change. However, all people are in need of change. There are none that are perfect, no not one.

if jesus is the light of the world, then the light bringer is Lucifer

why is the christ called jesus at all? the english equivilent of the hebrew is Joshua

is it because of the parallel between Jesus and Zeus? the translation of the bible was greek, not only that, the character of jesus is an almagamation of dozens of gods and deities from different religions, myths, legends


stinkz:

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One does not have to be "perfect" at doing evil to be evil. One single act is enough to corrupt the person.

then one single act of good is enough to 'corrupt' an evil person.

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Does everything in life have to be a "quick read" for you to consider it?

no. i was hoping that you could point out these things to us, as you had stated it is there, but you give no chapters or verses to back the claim

i have read the bible, but what do you profess the nature of right and wrong to be? is it the 10 commandments? is it doing anything so long as god is on your side?

Quote:

Yes... it is a never-ending war. However, the fact that many people do wrong and won't stop doesn't mean that they shouldn't be punished for it. The fact that alot of people think that the war is unjustified doesn't negate the fact that having a cruel dictator which promotes terrorist acts is wrong. Bush is rightly concerned for the welfare and safety of the American people and is doing what he can to ensure that another terrible act like 9-11 won't happen again. Face the facts. Terrorism is wrong and should be ended.

are you sure you know who is behind 9/11? are you sure that this administration or any other has the right to kill any other human being or to detain them without proof or evidence of any 'wrong' act. the reason for the war in iraq are unjustified. what about Saddam? 'oh well, he killed his own people and wants to kill americans and jews and he has weapons of mass destruction' do you know who gave Saddam those weapons and chemicals? could it be the very people who have now taken over iraq? Saddam, like Bin Laden worked for the CIA, and the Bush family and the Bin Laden family are really good friends, you can even see a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in the 80s. Saddam and Bin Laden are not dead, they are probably in some safe country poolside drinking margaritas
i'm not going to get into that because this forum is not the right place to discuss it

war will end when we decide not to fight, when we decide not to have men in suits make our decisions for us and to use us like sheep to the slaughter.
but our decisions are already being made for us, because there is going to be another draft in the U.S. but the choice is still yours to make
i have made my choice, and i understand why i made it

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No unbeliever WANTS the Bible to be true because, if it is, that means that they might be in need of change.

nor does anyone who breathes and believes any religion want anything that is not their religion to be true, but how could anything other than your own religion be true?

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However, all people are in need of change. There are none that are perfect, no not one.

what are you? what are you made of? are you made of flesh and bone and atoms and such, made of matter? what is matter? is not matter energy?
all things are made of energy; you, your thoughts, the words coming out of your mouth, the grass, the street, your computer.

how can energy be imperfect? how can it have flaws? what you perceive as flaws are just fluctuations in a given frequency

all are perfect and all are imperfect, all are good and all are evil, all are light and all are dark, all hate and all love
all are different frequencies that we perceive, and you are all these things

Quote:

What I am trying to say is that good and bad are not equal. They can be thought of as opposites, but they are not the same. Everyone knows this. Trying to rationalize wrong because it is "the same" as right doesn't justify it.

Socrates would ask you 'what is justice? what is good? etc