»Matrix ReSolutions«

Hello to all,

Some here may remember me from last year. I asked a lot of questions and answered a lot of questions about the movies. Whether you do or not, I completed the ultimate Matrix theory website in November 2006:

Surprised wrote:

- Theory about the Oracle's candy and cookies that I have yet to see topped

Problem one with your arguement - Neo didn't eat the candy in the second film.

The first cookie could equal second sight alone but that doesn't have to be the extent of what it delievered. Neo didn't see the world without time seperately, both visions were centered around Trinity and love and I believe that's no small coincidence. The vision of the power lines was at a certain time for a certain reason. He said he could get himself "out of this" and the power lines did lead him to the way to get out of his body. He was just envisioning the wrong "this." He meant out of Mobil Ave and got the way out of his body instead.

Surprised wrote:

Reason #4: Starting Over Every 100 Years ... when the Oracle "sends" the rejection code into the One, the Merovingian is probably the program that routes the information correctly.

If the Oracle is the Prime program and the replacement Matrix OS (which I believe it is) then the Merovingian is capable of routing the instruction but more correctly, and in support of your arguement, the Oracle would be the one to route the instruction by default. It is simply a matter of which OS's instruction routing they choose to follow. "Correct" routing in this case depends on who it is to be correct for. The Oracle being the OS the machines currently prefer, correct for the machines means following the Oracle, not Merv.

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Problem one with your arguement - Neo didn't eat the candy in the second film.

It is an assumption either way. I didn't see Neo grab the candy and put it in his mouth, but you didn't see the Oracle eat the candy herself or put the candy back in her purse, did you? Neo could have grabbed and eaten the candy while the camera was focused on the Oracle, and likewise she could have continued holding the candy for the duration of the conversation.

This argument is a stalemate with no factors pushing in either direction, except for one critical part of the conversation:

Neo: Do you already know if I'm going to take it?
Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.

While neither I nor you can prove one way or another, it seems more likely to me that Neo ate the candy given the above exchange. While she could have offered him candy knowing he wouldn't take it, that doesn't make as much sense as offering it to him knowing he would take it - it makes most sense for the Oracle to offer candy to Neo if the Oracle already knows he is going to take it. I'm glad you responded to this though - I will clarify this on the Conversations: Neo & Oracle (M2) page when I get time.

Regarding what the first cookie could have delivered Neo, "could be" arguments are ones I'm not interested in for the purposes of my website. What I'm interested in is what makes one argument more likely than another.

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Surprised wrote: Reason #4: Starting Over Every 100 Years ... when the Oracle "sends" the rejection code into the One, the Merovingian is probably the program that routes the information correctly.

For future reference, please tell people in this forum what subpage you're getting quotes from on my website. Otherwise, other people reading your message have no way to understand your point. Luckily, I happen to have a good memory of the over 1MB of text on the site. For others' reference, this quote comes from the Merovingian: Eyes of the Oracle page.

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If the Oracle is the Prime program and the replacement Matrix OS (which I believe it is) then the Merovingian is capable of routing the instruction but more correctly, and in support of your arguement, the Oracle would be the one to route the instruction by default. It is simply a matter of which OS's instruction routing they choose to follow. "Correct" routing in this case depends on who it is to be correct for. The Oracle being the OS the machines currently prefer, correct for the machines means following the Oracle, not Merv.

Good point - never thought of the O/S thing in quite that amount of detail. I'm not sure if I need to revise the website to go into that amount of detail, but an interesting point nonetheless.

Keep the feedback coming! If there is anything that seems like it is missing or incorrect on the website, I definitely want to know. I've already given credit to one person who gave me feedback on the site (see Movie Titles: The Matrix section), not to mention those who have contributed to the Other Theories section.

What an excellent looking site!

I haven't nosed around in it too much yet (I just got done reading the introduction), but definately plan on reading it all. What I've read so far is introductory in nature and already evocative enough that it stimulates further reading.

For about a year now, I've been walking around with the idea of also creating a matrix site entirely devoted to explaining the various storylines, themes, and symbolisms presented in the three films. I am just as much a fan of these movies as you are, and dare to admit that I have probably devoted at least just as much time and effort to getting to the core of these movies as you have.

Of course, my website would be structurally different from yours and will have a different focus. Your website is about "Finding possible explanations for the plotline that work within the realm of science fiction", while mine will be more about "Discovering the depth of the rabbit hole by explaining the different layers hidden within the plotline". There where science fiction is the focus of your website, mine will have more of an encompassing approach.

I just wanted to let you know that I am looking forward to continue reading on your website and that I admire the effort.

I'm also glad to see that I'm not the only Matrix Freak out there who is willing to devote so much time and effort into truly understanding the matrix trilogy.

Surprised wrote:

It is an assumption either way. I didn't see Neo grab the candy and put it in his mouth, but you didn't see the Oracle eat the candy herself or put the candy back in her purse, did you?

Actually we do see the Oracle eating the candy.

Surprised wrote:

Neo: Do you already know if I'm going to take it? Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't. While neither I nor you can prove one way or another, it seems more likely to me that Neo ate the candy given the above exchange. While she could have offered him candy knowing he wouldn't take it, that doesn't make as much sense as offering it to him knowing he would take it - it makes most sense for the Oracle to offer candy to Neo if the Oracle already knows he is going to take it.

Well, he did take it, he just didn't eat it. When he first meets the Oracle, he doesen't know what the hell is going on, and eats cookie she offers. When he meets her the second time, he's not as lost as in the first meeting (not to say that he isn't somewhat confused), and finds out the Oracle is a program, and as he says, how can he trust her? Maybe that's why he accepts the candy, but chooses not to eat it.

And the site is great by the way!

seravingian wrote:

What an excellent looking site! I haven't nosed around in it too much yet (I just got done reading the introduction), but definately plan on reading it all. What I've read so far is introductory in nature and already evocative enough that it stimulates further reading.

Thank you! It is so nice to receive feedback like this. This is what I was aiming for - brain candy all the way through the site.

seravingian wrote:

For about a year now, I've been walking around with the idea of also creating a matrix site entirely devoted to explaining the various storylines, themes, and symbolisms presented in the three films. I am just as much a fan of these movies as you are, and dare to admit that I have probably devoted at least just as much time and effort to getting to the core of these movies as you have.

The movies are worthy of your obsession! The more I dug into the movies, the more I realized that the movies are probably the greatest piece of "art" of all time judged by any artistic standard whatsoever. This is just my opinion of course, but I sure could back it up.

seravingian wrote:

Of course, my website would be structurally different from yours and will have a different focus. Your website is about "Finding possible explanations for the plotline that work within the realm of science fiction", while mine will be more about "Discovering the depth of the rabbit hole by explaining the different layers hidden within the plotline". There where science fiction is the focus of your website, mine will have more of an encompassing approach.

Go for it - the movies totally deserve more sites devoted to them. As you'll notice though, even though my focus is the science fiction element, discussion of hidden layers is still found throughout the site. And, there's an entire page (a gigantic page in fact) devoted to higher meanings - just scroll to the bottom of the left links window for that.

seravingian wrote:

I just wanted to let you know that I am looking forward to continue reading on your website and that I admire the effort. I'm also glad to see that I'm not the only Matrix Freak out there who is willing to devote so much time and effort into truly understanding the matrix trilogy.

Thanks again!

Surprised wrote:

Hello to all, Some here may remember me from last year. I asked a lot of questions and answered a lot of questions about the movies. Whether you do or not, I completed the ultimate Matrix theory website in November 2006: matrixresolutions.com...

Welcome back!

Your site looks great and I added the url of it here: trueredpill.googlepages.com...

I'll start reading right away

GhostTrax wrote:

Surprised wrote: It is an assumption either way. I didn't see Neo grab the candy and put it in his mouth, but you didn't see the Oracle eat the candy herself or put the candy back in her purse, did you? Actually we do see the Oracle eating the candy.

You mean we see her eating some candy, not the candy, right? She doesn't eat the piece of candy that Neo takes, which means Neo either dropped it, put it in his pocket, or ate it. Or perhaps he shoved it into a Smith's mouth during the burly brawl. It just seems most reasonable to me, given that Neo didn't give back the piece of candy, to assume he ate it at some point. We certainly don't see him still holding it in the burly brawl. What do you think happened to the candy? Did Neo litter?

GhostTrax wrote:

Well, he did take it, he just didn't eat it. When he first meets the Oracle, he doesen't know what the hell is going on, and eats cookie she offers. When he meets her the second time, he's not as lost as in the first meeting (not to say that he isn't somewhat confused), and finds out the Oracle is a program, and as he says, how can he trust her? Maybe that's why he accepts the candy, but chooses not to eat it.

Well, I watched this scene last year while I was building the site with the sole 100% purpose of just watching what happens to the candy, and I remember concluding that the Wachowskis don't make it clear. At a certain point we lose track of it. We can't conclude that Neo doesn't eat it while the camera is focused on the Oracle. And quite frankly, I have to wonder if the Wachowskis just assumed people would assume he ate it. I certainly did, and not until I stopped and thought about it for a while (after watching the movie many times, too) did I realize that I actually didn't see him eat the candy.

Mainly, it's hard to swallow the idea that the Oracle was using the candy only for a conversational device when she probably could have achieved the same result by asking Neo 200 other questions about his future intentions without the use of candy, to which Neo would respond, "Do you already know the answer to that question?"

Not only that, but consider the use of food throughout the Matrix movies. Food offered by programmers always has a purpose beyond itself. The Merovingian's cake produced sexual pleasure; the red pill disrupted Neo's input/output signals (the red pill was probably created by Zionist programmers); and, the cookie in the first movie gave Neo part of the Oracle's eyes (as my website supports). Why should the piece of candy be any different?

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And the site is great by the way!

Thanks! It was a lot of work as it appears. What was even more work is all the stuff you don't see... all the theories I originally had written and was forced to completely redo after realizing something that totally shot my theory down. I've seen a lot of users in this forum last year who cling to a far-fetched theory to their death, probably because it really does take a lot of mental energy to consider another theory and think about how that affects all the other theories of the movie. It takes even more energy to do this and then alter an entire website to be consistent with that theory. But I never felt the temptation to give in to this frustration and give up on the site, fortunately.

- Surprised

th3 p4th wrote:

Welcome back! Your site looks great and I added the url of it here: trueredpill.googlepages.com... I'll start reading right away

Thanks - appreciate the link! I created a new links section in my site, "Sites Linking to This Site" and put yours there.

- Surprised

Surprised wrote:

You mean we see her eating some candy, not the candy, right? She doesn't eat the piece of candy that Neo takes, which means Neo either dropped it, put it in his pocket, or ate it

Yeah, she eats an identical piece of candy, not Neo's candy.

I personaly think he just put it in his pocket.

Surprised wrote:

Well, I watched this scene last year while I was building the site with the sole 100% purpose of just watching what happens to the candy, and I remember concluding that the Wachowskis don't make it clear

Yeah, and I think they just wanted people to assume he ate the candy, while on closer inspection finding out he actually doesen't eat it. I think that if Neo really ate it, we would have seen him put it in his mouth.

I think it makes sense. In M1 he takes the cookie and eats it, in M2 he takes the candy but puts it away (which I think has to do with him now knowing that she is a program), and on their final meeting he rejects the candy completely.

GhostTrax wrote:

Yeah, and I think they just wanted people to assume he ate the candy, while on closer inspection finding out he actually doesen't eat it. I think that if Neo really ate it, we would have seen him put it in his mouth. I think it makes sense. In M1 he takes the cookie and eats it, in M2 he takes the candy but puts it away (which I think has to do with him now knowing that she is a program), and on their final meeting he rejects the candy completely.

Ok, now that you support your stance, this is much more interesting. While I still don't feel this argument compels me as much as what I have on my website, it is still reasonably feasible, and in your last paragraph above, you gave a decent reason why this might be the case, perhaps to symbolize Neo's growth into being the first One to defy the system (a small manifestation of his disrespect for authority). I might list this as an alternate theory or user response on the website - please let me know how you wish it to be quoted (if you want me to use your actual name, feel free to send me a PM), such as John Doe (www.johndoe.com) from Kentucky...

- Surprised

Surprised wrote:

you gave a decent reason why this might be the case, perhaps to symbolize Neo's growth into being the first One to defy the system (a small manifestation of his disrespect for authority)

Yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking.

PM on its way!

Just to add...

So yeah, I think the site is great as well. I spent significant time reading it. I wanted to add some thoughts to your theories about Neo being a program. You can find the first part of my synopsis here. Some of the points you already brought out, some are of a more symbolic nature.

matrix-explained.com...

If I flesh out more of it (I did at one point and accidentally deleted it) I will.

I'll quote your page when talking about it from now on. Just wanted to add that I found all of it great. I'm digging deeper now into the MxO and comic stuff which I haven't kept up with so I found that very useful.

BTW - the one most obvious point I'd like to add to your theory that Neo is a program is this. Many people have concluded that Seraph is a former One and I agree. But here's the single most important evidence from Reloaded. Neo sits on the bench with Seraph standing there...

The Reloaded script wrote:

NEO: You're not human, are you? ORACLE: Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that. NEO: If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine world; So is he [he's talking about Seraph]. ORACLE: So far, so good.

It stands to reason that if Seraph was a former One and he's a program, then so is Neo. I'd definitely add that in. : )

Thanks Surprised and keep it coming! In fact, I'd sign up for an email list of updates to your site for sure!

Well, if Seraph is a former One, does that mean that all previous One's are running around in the Matrix?

If that is so, then the mind of every One remains in the Matrix even though the body in the real world dies.

It would be great if the story of a previous One was made sometime, so that we can see exactly what happens when the right door is chosen.

GhostTrax wrote:

Well, if Seraph is a former One, does that mean that all previous One's are running around in the Matrix? If that is so, then the mind of every One remains in the Matrix even though the body in the real world dies.

Good question.

We're kind of at the limit of the material even saying that Seraph is a former one, to speculate on whether or not all former One's are still in the system is pretty far out of bounds.

That is to say, how would we ever know?

GhostTrax wrote:

It would be great if the story of a previous One was made sometime, so that we can see exactly what happens when the right door is chosen.

Totally agree. That would be cool.

That is though if the right door is even chosen at all. We don't know that that's the case really. You would presume that's true of at least one of the former Ones but who knows.

Aether wrote:

That is though if the right door is even chosen at all. We don't know that that's the case really. You would presume that's true of at least one of the former Ones but who knows

Well I simply assume that Neo is the only One that chose the left door, since Neo's experience, in the words of Archie, is far more specific, vis a vis love. If the other One's had no specific love in their lives to return to, it seems quite logical that they chose the right door.

And Neo's choice to go through the left door and back to Trin wouldn't really be so special and cool if it had been done before, but that's just my opinion.

GhostTrax wrote:

Well I simply assume that Neo is the only One that chose the left door, since Neo's experience, in the words of Archie, is far more specific, vis a vis love. If the other One's had no specific love in their lives to return to, it seems quite logical that they chose the right door. And Neo's choice to go through the left door and back to Trin wouldn't really be so special and cool if it had been done before, but that's just my opinion.

Oh totally agree. The scene from the first One where he's told to go through the left door and has to be told "no, your other left" is definitely an indicator and a dead giveaway IMHO.

There's a brief portion too in the completed script that was cut that says the first one made it to the Source and didn't end the war so you can only assume he chose the right door. In all honesty though, Neo made it back to the Source without choosing the right door so. *shrug*

Aether wrote:

The scene from the first One where he's told to go through the left door and has to be told "no, your other left" is definitely an indicator and a dead giveaway IMHO

Hm, I never really got that, actually.

Tank says go left and Neo goes right, does that mean that the programming or whatever to make Neo choose the right door at the source (like the other One's) is kicking in briefly, or what? Just a thought.

GhostTrax wrote:

Hm, I never really got that, actually. Tank says go left and Neo goes right, does that mean that the programming or whatever to make Neo choose the right door at the source (like the other One's) is kicking in briefly, or what? Just a thought.

I think it means his tendancy is to go through the right door and he probably has in the past (or the previous Ones which play some part in his coding) OR that he is programmed to automatically go through the right door by default even though he can choose.

Any one of those will suffice given what you believe is the nature of the One.

Surprised wrote:

th3 p4th wrote: Welcome back! Your site looks great and I added the url of it here: trueredpill.googlepages.com... I'll start reading right away Thanks - appreciate the link! I created a new links section in my site, "Sites Linking to This Site" and put yours there. - Surprised

Thanx a lot - although you mispelled my nickname at the link you added. It's "th3 p4th", not "The P4th". Anyway thanx

Aether wrote:

I think it means his tendancy is to go through the right door and he probably has in the past (or the previous Ones which play some part in his coding) OR that he is programmed to automatically go through the right door by default even though he can choose. Any one of those will suffice given what you believe is the nature of the One.

Okey, thanks!

Doh. This posting has been moved to a links forum. I suppose my oroginal post is indeed a link, but it is disappointing to me that the moderators don't feel that this post could be an exception since my site is 100% devoted to Matrix theory.

Aether wrote:

BTW - the one most obvious point I'd like to add to your theory that Neo is a program is this. Many people have concluded that Seraph is a former One and I agree. But here's the single most important evidence from Reloaded. Neo sits on the bench with Seraph standing there... The Reloaded script wrote: NEO: You're not human, are you? ORACLE: Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that. NEO: If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine world; So is he [he's talking about Seraph]. ORACLE: So far, so good. It stands to reason that if Seraph was a former One and he's a program, then so is Neo. I'd definitely add that in. : )

Actually, I think I already took care of this. Did you read the "Neo: Neo Dies?" page? That page already makes the very connection you're talking about and cites the Seraph page. I allow the reader to put 2 and 2 together from there.

Aether wrote:

Thanks Surprised and keep it coming! In fact, I'd sign up for an email list of updates to your site for sure!

I should probably take the newsletter link down, because Dada mail is really bad about being falsely identified as spam (I've tested the program already and probably 40% of all mails sent are identified as spam because of the way the program sends the mail.).

Does anyone know of a more reliable automated newsletter program that allows users to add and delete themselves from a newsletter mailing list?

Thanks for the feedback Aether.

- Surprised

I can see myself spending far too many hours reading your site.

RodBell wrote:

I can see myself spending far too many hours reading your site.

Hehehe... well, I may have spent an hour or two or 300 too many creating the site, so don't feel too guilty about your indulgence!

- Surprised