»Why the Oracle is not the Mother«

The Mother helped the Architect to keep humans inside of the Matrix.
The Oracle helps them to get out.

I think this is a pretty strong argument, although no proof.

Need input, please.

people keep posting stupid stuff like Zion is the mother and stuff like that. THE MOTHER IS A PROGRAM!! the architect says so! so unless niobe or Zion is a program then it has to be either a) persophone, b) the little girl or her mother c) the oracle or d) some character we havn't met yet. Personally, I think the oracle is the mother because when the architect says 'please' i think he just is saying either a) don't interupt me or b) she doesn't deserve such a title as the oracle.

Ok, the Oracle could be the mother - she helps free people but as we found out from the Architect, The one is a level of control in the system. Now alot of peoples views are fairly distorted or they interpret things in a wrong direction, which distorts their views and hence why they think Neo is a program that can download into the real world... if he could he would need a body to control like the Agent Smith copying onto Bane has proven.
But back to the point in hand. The oracle could very well be the mother but she couldnt, she could of been written as part of the level of control that implements choice, and i do not beleive it to be Persephone, i'm not sure why but i feel that people only think it's her because all we know of the "Mother" is that she is a she - ergo i believe the mother is a character we will meet in revolutions or not at all and is an enigma unsolved or has no relevence.
The mother found it was due to choice and created the choice... so either we are to be led to see it as the oracle but it isnt, or led to beleive it's the oracle and it is, think that it's Persephone, or a character we are yet to meet. But a strong counter-argument to the oracle being the mother is this "The oracle free's them for the matrix" but then is that to give the illusion of choice and does it personally to make sure it happens, or a program written to give the choice and free the characters.

As far as proof against the Oracle being the mother, I have none. I still dont understand how people believe Persephone is the mother of the Matrix. If the answer was found (by accident) by another program, not designed to 'program' or help 'design' the Matrix. Lets look at it logically:

The Mother of the Matrix Posesses:

Intuition: A perceptive insight. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes.

And she was originally desgined to investigate 'certain' aspects of the human mind: HOPE, FAITH, LOVE, HATE, CHOICE, FREE WILL.

The Oracle: 2/2
Persephone: 1/2

without taking into account the characters not yet introduced to us, I assume it is more than safe to say the Oracle is the mother of the Matrix.

Andromeda wrote:

The Oracle: 2/2

Ahem, I would say 0/2
She neither is intuitive (she just reads programmed choices rather than sensing) nor does she investigate.
She just sits in her kitchen and looks into candidates' mouths.

Well in any case if machines don't do anything but reading choices, then intuition is impossible for machines. Like perfection is impossible for humans, and we could discuss humans vs machines for hours and hours...

It is possible the Architect speaks of ARTIFICIAL INTUTION, you've probably heard of it in computers magazines, computer games or what not. Prediction of the future based on existing data. Video game AI scripts run depending on how you play the game. To me the Oracle fits there perfectly, this along with causality and the fact that Neo's life is based on a predication, and contingent affirmation of the past Ones, but lets agree we disagree.

Also I believe she has investigated "certain" aspects of the human mind, she doesn't currently, but she seems to have good understanding of Hope, Faith, Love, etc.

I'm stupid

My coworkers and I have debated the identity of the so called mother of the Matrix. Thus far, we are inclined to believe Persephone is this mother. Of course the clues are cryptic and ambiguous, I currently interpret them as follows:

When Neo suggests that the Oracle is the mother, the Architect's retort is a dismissing "please". Some interpret it as the Architect's aknowledgement of the correct statement with a sign of disapproval of an appropriate title. I offer this alternative: the Architect's retort is simply an implicit "wrong answer, where do you come up this nonsense?".

Some readers may consider this arguement flawed or perhaps cheating, but please consider this:

the Wachowski brothers seem to have an affinity for throwing conceptual curve balls.


The Oracle is as obvious a candidate for the mother of the Matrix as the Palpatine/Darth Sidious duality is in Star Wars.


Persephone on the other hand displays a great wealth of saviness in manipulating. While this level of skill comes natural for some people, and I use that term loosely, instances of artificial intelligence would require some serious coding or study of human nature to become so adroit at playing people.
The arguement rests these simple assumptions:

The Wachowski brothers believe in developing significant characters, thus with all of the material remaining to be covered, I would surmise they have already introduced all of the major characters, to allow the 3rd movie to be spent on the climax. If this is true, it follows that we've met all of the major players, to include this mother (should she be revealed). Assuming her identity is revealed, and also accepting that the mother is embodied in a human female body within the Matrix, that leaves: the Oracle and Persephone (there're the only 2 such ladies we've been introduced to). The Oracle has already been quite active and her role, while Persephone, who has recieved much screen time has only carried out one major function. Her appearance in the trailer for Revolution suggests there is more for her to do. Hence, to justify and balance the amount of screentime allotted, I believe Persephone is more than just the Merovingian's wife. Considering which key entity are left to be identified, I think Persephone is a better conjecture than the Oracle.

TheEigenValue wrote:

instances of artificial intelligence would require some serious coding or study of human nature to become so adroit at playing people.

This sentence (and your good language and logic) saves you from being thrown to the "redundant posts" forum

Refer to

another thing that might point to Persephone being the mother is that in the revolutions trailer she says soemthing in some sort of way that i havent really herd the machines say before She says soemthing to the anture about trinity SHe is in love and she will deystroy us all to save him this in my mind means she is pretty intutive about human feeling jsut my thoughts thow...

prime_vci wrote:

SHe is in love and she will deystroy us all to save him this in my mind means she is pretty intutive about human feeling jsut my thoughts thow...

Hey, brilliant. Have added it.

@TheEigenValue

Have you ever thought what purpose will the unraveling of the “Mother” role serve in the progression of the story line?

Is it a mere puzzle to be solved?

You are indeed a literate mathematician. Reading your post leaves one adrift admits your swirling ideas.

Regards,

Atreides

Quote:

You are indeed a literate mathematician. Reading your post leaves one adrift admits your swirling ideas.

hehe lol sorry, i can read fine but when it comes to writeing and spelling i bomb and i do fine in all other areas..... but i had a problem as a kid and this is whats happend

Without doubt, logic and reason leave us to believe that Persephone is the mother. Just one point to add:

In the revolutions trailer, she is in red. She's the only program dressed in red. The other one, we can remember, was the Woman in Red, created by Mouse in the simulation.

Red for me means "hot", means blood,human impulses. So she is more human than machine. She was created to be more human, to study the human impulses. (very much like the woman in red)

Thanks,

Firekeeper

Here is a reason not to believe The Oracle is the mother of The Matrix:

Remember that The Oracle is a program from The Matrix. Also remember that in The Matrix, Morpheus tells Neo that she has been with them (humans) since the beginning of the resistance.

Neo: So is this the same Oracle that made the prophecy?
Morpheus: Yes. She's very old. She's been with us since the beginning.
Neo: The beginning...?
Morpheus: Of the resistance.
Neo: And she knows what, everything?
Morpheus: She would say she knows enough.

Remember that The Architect tells Neo "the mother" of The Matrix was a sentient program designed (probably by him) to study the human psyche.

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Remember that The Oracle tells Neo that programs that don't do what they're supposed to do, turn into what we would know as ghosts, werewolfs, etc.

The Oracle: Oh, well, not like me. But... Look, see those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the trees, and the wind, the sunrise, and sunset. There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time.

Neo: I've never heard of them.

The Oracle: Of course you have. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing.

So if The Oracle is in fact, "the mother" of The Matrix, she would most definitely be a ghost or vampire, or a strange creature, because she is definitely not doing what she is supposed to be doing.

Unless, of course, she was re-programmed to guide "The One" to "The Source". Notice on the above quote of The Architect he says:

Architect: ....an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. ....

Feedback please.

knnknn wrote:

The Mother helped the Architect to keep humans inside of the Matrix. The Oracle helps them to get out. I think this is a pretty strong argument, although no proof. Need input, please.

I see the point you're making, however, I can allso see teh flip to that in the sense that the Oracle is in fact doing the same thing that was discussed in the Architect scene. Neo declares (and the Achitect does not deny) that the problem is choice. But the Oracle tells Neo that the choice has already been made (implying perhaps fate or destiny controls all) in a way leading Neo to believe that he doesn't have to make a choice. I don't believe the Oracle is helping people to get out. If she were she would have just told Neo from the start that he was the One. But she didn't, she denied (knowing in fact that he was the One) and sat back and obseved how his human feelings interfeared with his choices (he came back to life because he found out Trinity loves him?). So you said later that she does not investigate. I disagree. If the above is true, she IS investigating those aspects of the human mind...

And you can take it one step further and say she is still working for the machines in the sense that she is still doing her original job, what the Architect says she was created for. (Although as a matter of opinion, I don't believe she really takes sides, she merely observes)

Exiles DONT TURN into monster, they came from the older version of the Matrix based on the grotesqueries of our nature. Remember that Persephone was the mother she would not be an exile, she would have found the answer to why the matris crashed. The idea of a ghost, vampire or angel is a problem WITHIN the matrix which hosts a program that is not doing what they're supposed to be doing. I has nothing to do with purpose. Exiles are programs with no purpose like the twin (but what about the keymaker... and he was suppose to be deleted... are you crazy?)... there are to many conter arguments to this.

Neo: Programs hacking programs. Why?

The Oracle: They have their reasons, but usually a program chooses exile when it faces deletion.

Neo: And why would a program be deleted?

The Oracle: Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it - happens all the time, and when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to The Source.

A "better program" may have been crated to control the path of the One, or maybe that program failed, so the keymaker is now needed again. I DONT KNOW! stop yelling at me! I'm going crazy we'll have answers soon.

The Oracle does state there are NO programs, like her, and refers to program hacking programs as THEY. She's obviously meant to be within the system of control. Thist is a weak link, but it supports the fact that the Oracle is not an exile, and part of the Matrix.

Okay this is my take on the whole agrument.

I think the Oracle is the program of which the architect speaks. During the first matrix (the one that was a horrible failure) she was designed to look at different aspects of the human psyche and from doing so she stumbled upon the reason the human minds didn't aspect the matrix (re: Choice). So they redesigned the matrix and gave her the new purpose of helping to guide the humans towards finding "The One". Who better to help the humans find "The One" then a program designed to understand the human mind?

She is NOT helping to free the humans. Her function is to help guide "The One" to the Source. That is all she is doing.

They call her "The Oracle" as if she can predict the future.. when it reality she isn't able to do.. she is only guiding them through the inevitable steps to get "The One" to the Source. When the Architect starts telling Neo about the Matrix he is telling him that the prophecy is not true; it was purely a system of control to improve the design of the matrix. Therefore when Neo calls her the Oracle in his presence he is a little miffed because Neo is stupid enough to think the prophecy was something real.

Soujiro wrote:

They call her "The Oracle" as if she can predict the future.. when it reality she isn't able to do.. she is only guiding them through the inevitable steps to get "The One" to the Source.

How do you explane her knowing about Neo not being able to sleep then?
I agree with you on the latter though.

A Quote From Enter The Matrix:
Oracle : "Two programs that I trusted sold the termination code of my original shell to the Merovingian. [They did it] for love. For the life of their child."


Now I ask you...
If the architect is the Father of the Matrix and Let's just say for the sake of naming someone...Persephone is the Mother of the Matrix...Would the Matrix be considered their "Child"?

Really, the question that should be asked here is not who the mother of the matrix is...but who are the two programs that sold the Oracle's code and who is the child? Does he have anything to do with the child that Neo rescued?

evr wrote:

Soujiro wrote: They call her "The Oracle" as if she can predict the future.. when it reality she isn't able to do.. she is only guiding them through the inevitable steps to get "The One" to the Source. How do you explane her knowing about Neo not being able to sleep then? I agree with you on the latter though.

How does the matrix manage to create a self-image within the matrix for each individual? It HAS to have the ability to read your memory.. and how do you remember stuff that other people do inside the matrix once you are back in zion? It has to write stuff to your memory.

The Oracle doesn't see the future.. she looks at your mind and tells you what you need to know.

Woah...don't just go assuming that because she's the Oracle she had root access to your memory. She may be bound by permissions.

Soujiro wrote:

The Oracle doesn't see the future.. she looks at your mind and tells you what you need to know.

She predicts the future.