»Crippling the MwM theory...«

No offense to you MwM true believers out there... but, anyhoo, Zion is real because:

1. "The Matrix is like a splinter in your brain driving you mad" If Zion isnt real, then the people in Zion were never really given a choice- it was forced upon them. Such a limited option surely cannot satisfy everyone offered it- even if it was just 1% of 1%, if Zion was a false reality similar to the Matrix, over the period of 100 years, there would be those still mad with that splinter making them question the world around them- especially since they already learned about the first Matrix.

2. The 1% anomaly have to be removed from the system to keep it running- otherwise it would cause a systemic crash. If Zion is part of that system, the 1% isnt really being removed, and the Matrix would have crashed a long time ago.

3. The Matrix is a system to control people. But a second Matrix is pointless- all the people in Zion are scheduled for execution anyway. It is a waste of code.

4. Because if Zion, like the Matrix, is a deception, then the whole story of what the Matrix is cant be trusted. No reality = no truth. There is no spoon, there is no matrix.

Love your theory mate.................

StaticAge, then how would you rationally explain Neo's powers in the supposed "real world"? I don't want silly and religuios thoughts of Neo being the One and therefore being able to use his powers outside of the matrix. HOW?
PIUKNEO.

Anonymous wrote:

StaticAge, then how would you rationally explain Neo's powers in the supposed "real world"? I don't want silly and religuios thoughts of Neo being the One and therefore being able to use his powers outside of the matrix. HOW? PIUKNEO.

My point isnt to explain your question, only to show that the MwM theory is somewhat illogical.

But, to answer your question anyway, Neo's mind and body have separated since visiting the source (this is what the oracle says in ETM video game). It is feasable, that because he is still in the matrix at the same time then, that he was able to do those things through the Matrix, even though he was outside the Matrix too. Smith, Neo's mirror/shadow is in Zion and the Matrix at the same time, so Neo has to become equal.

But I digress.

If the main reason for inventing the theory of a MwM is because Neo stopped the sentinels, there are other explanations that do not contradict the story's logic thus far. Besides, since the movie ended right after that scene, we have no idea where the W Bro might be going with that cliffhanger: they just MIGHT make it religious or super power what have you. Just because you dont like it doenst mean it couldnt happen. I wouldnt like those ideas either, but they still are more logical to me than a MwM.

here's some proof against MwM

The Architect says that it is beause of CHOICE people accept the program, not some of them, but ALL of the people who accept the program Matrix, do so, because there's a choice, whether they're aware of it or not does not matter. Meaning that those who live in the MAtrix have the option to wake up if they wanted to.
If Zion was inside The Matrix, then the 1.something percent of people who dont accept the program are... where?

Static Age, I repeat, as I said, if the reason is Neo's connecton with Smith, it would make the movie a science-ficcion-fantasy one, and pointing out your thought or state that Neo's mind is still in the matrix as said by the Oracle....haven't you ever you thought, haven't your brain cells thought that the BODY CAN NOT LIVE WITHOUT THE MIND? There is no way neo's mind is separated from his body or still connected to the matrix, even wireless. Think rationally.
PiukNeo.

Anonymous wrote:

Static Age, I repeat, as I said, if the reason is Neo's connecton with Smith, it would make the movie a science-ficcion-fantasy one, and pointing out your thought or state that Neo's mind is still in the matrix as said by the Oracle....haven't you ever you thought, haven't your brain cells thought that the BODY CAN NOT LIVE WITHOUT THE MIND? There is no way neo's mind is separated from his body or still connected to the matrix, even wireless. Think rationally. PiukNeo.

Well then consider it done- sci-fi-fantasy one it is! It was already said in the game, written by the W bros.

Nowhere in the movie does it say anything about a MwM. It SAYS in the game thats what happens: neo's mind and body separate. Deal.

If you want to think rationally, explain how your MwM theory meets the issues I raised in this post, or create another separate one about Neo andf the sentinels.

MAN YOU ARE A BONEHEAD......THEN IF IT IS A SCI-FI-FANTASY, AND IF THE GAME SAID SO8I GOT IT I KNOW IT DOES) THEN, HAVEN'T YOU THOUGHT THAT THE ORACLE MIGHT JUST HAVE SAID IT METAPHORICALLY?? NOT LITERALLY SPEAKING? IN ORDER FOR NEO TO GO TO THE SOURCE, HIS MIND HAD TO TECHNICALLY SEPARATE FROM HIS BODY, BUT NOT LITERALLY.....DUH!
PIUKNEO.

Anonymous wrote:

MAN YOU ARE A BONEHEAD......THEN IF IT IS A SCI-FI-FANTASY, AND IF THE GAME SAID SO8I GOT IT I KNOW IT DOES) THEN, HAVEN'T YOU THOUGHT THAT THE ORACLE MIGHT JUST HAVE SAID IT METAPHORICALLY?? NOT LITERALLY SPEAKING? IN ORDER FOR NEO TO GO TO THE SOURCE, HIS MIND HAD TO TECHNICALLY SEPARATE FROM HIS BODY, BUT NOT LITERALLY.....DUH! PIUKNEO.

Wow, name-calling... an amazing display of your mental abilities.

So you admit thats what it says, and then make an excuse for why it still doesnt matter... wow. You really make a strong case for yourself there.

Maybe I can pick and choose what to believe too... hmm, Neo didnt really stop the sentinels- it was a visual metaphor... in order to escape the machines, Neo had to technically stop the sentinels, but not literally. duh.

It seems you have nothing really to contribute here- you keep side stepping what I am talking about to interject something entirely different that can be easily explained by the story so far.

what about astral projection?

the body still lives while your mind travels about
sometimes during high trauma or injury, you jump out of your body to 'buffer' the pain, you can also do this with practice or the aid of chemicals

do not say "oh that is just fantasy blah blah"
even scientists, if that is where you swing, are now saying that things like astral projection does happen.

what is wrong with a 'sci-fi, fantasy, action, whatever'?

should the 'Matrix' fit into a specific category?

esc wrote:

the body still lives while your mind travels about sometimes

You travel around, not a part of you.

did i say a part of you? the mind is not physical, but is it a 'part' of you?
the mind is not the brain
there are several 'layers' to 'you'

the physical body, the astral body, emotion, mind etc

your body is still breathing and still living if you travel astrally, it is like dreaming, in fact this is when most people leave their bodies is when they sleep

at the end of Reloaded Neo's physical body is in a 'coma' in zion, his mind/astral body is in between the matrix and zion, i think i read it was the 'buffer' zone or something in a review of revolutions

you are your mind, as you are your physical body

i did not say your leg hops away from you

esc wrote:

your leg hops away from you

Woah.

I like Mr. Age's ideas, kudos to your thinking ability.


As for the idea of explaining Neo's newfound powers with an entire plot twist that is (to me)

Neo: Bullshit!

All TV Neos: BULLSHIT!


Heh heh, anyway the reason I don't like the MwM theory is because it was based on the question "Why does Neo have powers in the Real World." But it never really answers this question satsfyable and it contradics what we have been told or have decifered about the Matrix as of yet.

There is no Matrix within a Matrix....

Agent Smith's human counterpart and Neo were spared because of a code they share which dissallows the sentinels or any other machine to kill them...I mean if "the one" is that important don't you think they would have taken the necessary steps to ensure his survival both in and out of the matrix?

Wtiberon

You guys are nuts.

The movie ends.. and you'll all go "oh jesus I didn't think that'd happen. I didn't think this would happen to him or that this people would have that happen to him!" and then you'll go "WTF they didn't even explain this and that@!!!" until you see a little scene that'll make you go "whoa! (in your best Keanu voice) cause you'll realize THERE IS NO SPOON!

esc wrote:

did i say a part of you?

You said "your mind" and that makes it a part of you.

Hey static.. visit my topic "unessecary things.. such as the whole mwam theory" it has some of your points and a cupple more.. good to have another anti mwam person .

The whole basis for the mwim is that one scene where Neo stops the sentinals (It's a snowball that can be pushed downhill in any direction). Nothing else in the movie, without seeing that scene would support mwim.

To be honest, when I walked out of the theatre after seeing it for the first time, that is the first thing that popped into mind. "WTF, another matrix?". That twist was purposely put at the end of the movie to keep people guessing and speculating until Revolutions. Even after seeing all the trailors (which have been spliced together perfectly to create more speculating), there is still no evidence to prove anyone right or wrong.


Anyways, can someone link me to a page where i can find out more about this 1% of whatever people keep bringing up?

STATICAGE, SORRY THE LATELY SUBMIT, YOU SAID THET NEO TECHNICALLY STOPPED THE SENTINELS, NOT LITERALLY, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE A NEURONAL PROBLEM, BUT AS THE WAY I SEE IT, NEO IN FACT LITERALLY STOPPED THE SENTINELS......RETHINK THAT MAN.
PIUKNEO.

StaticAge wrote:

2. The 1% anomaly have to be removed from the system to keep it running- otherwise it would cause a systemic crash. If Zion is part of that system, the 1% isnt really being removed, and the Matrix would have crashed a long time ago.

Not really. I have an anti virus program, called "AVG". When it detects an infected file it asks me whether to a) delete it or b) quarantine it. In the 2nd option, the file still exists on my PC, but ina special archive created by AVG.

More to the point, if you have such a containment area where, because people assume that they've escaped, they don't question their reality and
really escape, then they can still be used like the rest are. that is, they may still be part of the "human battery" park.

StaticAge wrote:

3. The Matrix is a system to control people. But a second Matrix is pointless- all the people in Zion are scheduled for execution anyway. It is a waste of code.

No, rather it schedules that execution and prioritises it. If the scenes from the Animatrix were true, the machines only want a system whereby they can exist and the humans don't cause them further trouble.

Also, it can be an iterative code system whereby the same code calls itself over and over again. Thus, there could be any number of matrix "levels" of reality, all supported by the same system.

StaticAge wrote:

4. Because if Zion, like the Matrix, is a deception, then the whole story of what the Matrix is cant be trusted. No reality = no truth. There is no spoon, there is no matrix.

he he he -- that's the beauty of it, surely [/b]

LauraS wrote:

Not really. I have an anti virus program, called "AVG". When it detects an infected file it asks me whether to a) delete it or b) quarantine it. In the 2nd option, the file still exists on my PC, but ina special archive created by AVG. More to the point, if you have such a containment area where, because people assume that they've escaped, they don't question their reality and really escape, then they can still be used like the rest are. that is, they may still be part of the "human battery" park. StaticAge wrote: 3. The Matrix is a system to control people. But a second Matrix is pointless- all the people in Zion are scheduled for execution anyway. It is a waste of code. No, rather it schedules that execution and prioritises it.

Thats what I said- scheduled for execution! here's the thing- if Zion was made so they could keep these humans in a battery park, why are they going to execute them anyway? According to your theory, they never really escaped, they arent really causing any harm to the system anymore, and they machines went thruogh the trouble of making zion to keep using them as power- if thats true, executing them doesnt make sense to me. If the machines just CANT let all those human batteries go to the point of creating another Matrix for them so they can keep using them, then executing them is totally backwards.

There is a big difference between a file and the plot of the Matrix: your file has no free will. The problem the Architect maps out to Neo is based on an anomaly caused by free will. If the solution was as simple as creating a quarantine area within the system, there would be no problem at all. Aside from that, the solution people outline in MwM theories hinges on the assumption that everyone will accept a second matrix- thats wholly unrealistic and it goes against the basic premise of the movie. Think about it- the machines have trouble because people were able to sense that the matrix was false... so they solve that by placing them in another matrix? It didnt trick them the first time, so the second time will DEFINITELY trick them... that doesnt sound right to me. Then, these people were born with this drive in them making them question reality- youre telling me its a foregone conclusion that NONE of them are going to question reality ever again? How would the machines know how to satisfy their curiousity? They have never successfully been able to satisfy 100% of people. It couldnt work. The quarantine might work for a corrupted file on a pc, but I dont know how well that analogy works since the Zionites go back inside the Matrix all the time.

StaticAge wrote:

No offense to you MwM true believers out there... but, anyhoo, Zion is real because: 1. "The Matrix is like a splinter in your brain driving you mad" If Zion isnt real, then the people in Zion were never really given a choice- it was forced upon them. Such a limited option surely cannot satisfy everyone offered it- even if it was just 1% of 1%, if Zion was a false reality similar to the Matrix, over the period of 100 years, there would be those still mad with that splinter making them question the world around them- especially since they already learned about the first Matrix.

MwM is actually an elegant if somewhat boring solution. To risk condemnation I'll use an easily broken analogy: I have a bunch of webpages written in HTML and Javascript, which are generated by a bunch of PHP programs in turn generated by a blogging software written in Perl, which is interpreted by a program written in C, which is translated to machine language. OK, this is a simplification but the point is that when layers are "seamlessly" integrated, it can be very difficult to know how deep the layers go if you are that HTML or Javascript program.

Yeah, but how about the 1% who destablilize the system? How about choice? Well, the choice is likely a false one. Humans were never given a choice. They were already plugged into a matrix-like simulation unknown to them, but in order to maintain stability of that outer Matrix, they were given a "choice" to accept or reject an inner and younger matrix. The new layer was a necessary (but still dirty) hack to maintain the entire system.

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2. The 1% anomaly have to be removed from the system to keep it running- otherwise it would cause a systemic crash. If Zion is part of that system, the 1% isnt really being removed, and the Matrix would have crashed a long time ago.

Failure to remove the 1% allergic to the Matrix would crash the inner matrix but not necessary the outer one. The outer layer is crashable but by a different set of humans, perhaps 1%, perhaps more, or less.

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3. The Matrix is a system to control people. But a second Matrix is pointless- all the people in Zion are scheduled for execution anyway. It is a waste of code.

Not at all. PHP, Perl, Python...all these higher-level languages were invented even though they were technically unnecessary: this forum software could have been written entirely in Assembly or C. But they make things easier. An inner matrix (not a "second" matrix) is just another system of control. But control aside, and unlike the PHP/Perl analogy, this layer is needed to maintain stability of the whole.

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4. Because if Zion, like the Matrix, is a deception, then the whole story of what the Matrix is cant be trusted. No reality = no truth. There is no spoon, there is no matrix.

Exactly, that's the genius of the Brothers.

AKC wrote:

MwM is actually an elegant if somewhat boring solution. To risk condemnation I'll use an easily broken analogy: I have a bunch of webpages written in HTML and Javascript, which are generated by a bunch of PHP programs in turn generated by a blogging software written in Perl, which is interpreted by a program written in C, which is translated to machine language. OK, this is a simplification but the point is that when layers are "seamlessly" integrated, it can be very difficult to know how deep the layers go if you are that HTML or Javascript program. Yeah, but how about the 1% who destablilize the system? How about choice? Well, the choice is likely a false one. Humans were never given a choice. They were already plugged into a matrix-like simulation unknown to them, but in order to maintain stability of that outer Matrix, they were given a "choice" to accept or reject an inner and younger matrix. The new layer was a necessary (but still dirty) hack to maintain the entire system. Failure to remove the 1% allergic to the Matrix would crash the inner matrix but not necessary the outer one. The outer layer is crashable but by a different set of humans, perhaps 1%, perhaps more, or less. Not at all. PHP, Perl, Python...all these higher-level languages were invented even though they were technically unnecessary: this forum software could have been written entirely in Assembly or C. But they make things easier. An inner matrix (not a "second" matrix) is just another system of control. But control aside, and unlike the PHP/Perl analogy, this layer is needed to maintain stability of the whole. Exactly, that's the genius of the Brothers.

I appreciate some of your points, but I dont think what you describe fits the story of the Matrix. The plot of the Matrix is that humans have rejected every version of the Matrix, a problem that stems from the machines inability to anticipate the needs of the human mind. The only solution that worked was to allow them choices, including that to reject the Matrix.

In the real world, you can quarantine viruses, run separate yet interactive programing commands- on my Mac I can run Unix, Windows, OS X, and OS 9 through virtual environments. I can see some similarities between that and the basic concept of the Matrix, but when it comes down to actual plot- the technical explanations you give are not introduced or explored at all by the movie so far. That makes me believe that those analogies are stretching it a bit. The solution doesnt fit the problem they describe: like the movie said, the problem isnt simple conflicting programs or poorly implemented technology- its choice. Its a human problem; mental, emotional, spiritual, philosophical, and organic in nature.

Also, if you can write a layer where the allergic 1% doesnt crash that layer, then there shouldnt be any problem at all, you could simply implement that into the original Matrix. You obviously wouldnt need to account for choice if you were able to somehow keep it from crashing.

But the fact is that regardless of whether it would crash it or not- no one in Zion senses a false reality. If it is another false reality similar to the Matrix, there would still be those who could sense it. If the machines were able to logically acount for every human created discrepancy, there wouldnt be a problem in the first place. The fact is they cant, and forcing one single fake "choice" onto humans is an unrealistic solution, given that they explain why the machines are incapable of satisfying the complexity of the human mind. Its like if you had a safe you were hiding money in, and a theif was able to hack into it and take the money, it would be stupid to think that your money would be any safer by placing it in a similar yet smaller safe inside the first one.

Besides, when I say its a waste of code, I dont mean it isnt impossible to write or whatever... its WHY do the machines want a second Matrix (or level or layer, blah blah blah..)? WHY do they need these humans kept in the dark? Ostensibly, its so they can continue to use them for energy even if they "escape". BUT- then they are planning to kill them anyway. That doesnt jive! To create an analogy of my own, its like if you had money in your pocket that you want to be able to use, so to keep it away from theives, you place it in a box. Then you throw that box in a fire. Its illogical!

StaticAge wrote:

LauraS wrote: No, rather it schedules that execution and prioritises it. Thats what I said- scheduled for execution! here's the thing- if Zion was made so they could keep these humans in a battery park, why are they going to execute them anyway?

Because it keeps the anomaly contained and away from the rest of the Matrix. The basic problem the Architect had with earlier versions of the matrix was keeping people from being bored. People stayed alive while they were interested in living, and died, when they lost it. That's where the "apparent" choice came in, as people generally lose interest in something unless either a) it's life threatening or b) they have a choice.

Consider the scene M#1 where Smith confronts "Mr Anderson" and states clearly "you have a choice" and attempts to force him to make that choice. Left to his own devices, Neo would have just drifted, because the consensus version of the matrix was too boring for him, and maybe died from overdosing on something.

Now that he's been 'freed", he has an interest in living again, and a focus in his actions. But, he's also out of the main environment (I'll call that the "consensus" section of the Matrix, as opposed to the "zion" section). When he interacts with it, it's generally only to talk or fight with programs -- when's the last time you saw him talk to an "ordinary person"?

Also, they can still still die if they die in the consensus section, and their efforts in returning to it and fighting everyone heighten the chance. it means that they burn themselves up quicker (and no doubt any disturbance caused is explained away as "terrorist actions").

StaticAge wrote:

There is a big difference between a file and the plot of the Matrix: your file has no free will. The problem the Architect maps out to Neo is based on an anomaly caused by free will.

Ever tried to read a file and get a "read/write" error? Maybe that's the equivalent of "freewill" (the file's deciding not to be read). On my PC, it will hang and I get repeated error messages, which have to be answered before I can proceed.

StaticAge wrote:

Aside from that, the solution people outline in MwM theories hinges on the assumption that everyone will accept a second matrix- thats wholly unrealistic and it goes against the basic premise of the movie... ...How would the machines know how to satisfy their curiousity? They have never successfully been able to satisfy 100% of people.

They give them a focus to concentrate on, a problem that can't be solved, like overthrowing the consensus section. And maybe the zion section doesn't take as much to maintain as the consensus section. It might be more economical in processing time to have 250,000 troublemakers in the zion section, than in consensus.