»Architect states quite clearly that Zion is in the Matrix«

Ok, dig this:

Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is
ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors.
The door to your right leads to the Source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left
leads back to the Matrix, to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the
problem is choice. But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already, I can see the
chain reaction - the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed
specifically to overwhelm logic and reason - an emotion that is already blinding you from the
simple and obvious truth. She is going to die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.


Already, I can see the
chain reaction - the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion,...

pre·cur·sor -A biochemical substance, such as an intermediate compound in a chain of enzymatic reactions, from which a more stable or definitive product is formed: a precursor of insulin.

So, if the Architect can monitor "chemical precursors", he is monitoring the chemical make-up of Neo's brain. If he is monitoring Neo's brain, he must be observing it from somewhere...

Granted, bio-electric stimuli both from the brain and to the brain are responded to by the head-jack connection to the Matrix. But the Architect doesn't say he is watching electricity, transmitted data, nor even the iconic representation of Neo's consciousness in the Matrix (avatar).

No, the Architect is stating quite clearly he is seeing the
chain reaction - the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion,...

With Neo's brain under direct observation, his body is not in "The Real World" when he and the Architect have their conversation. His "body", his "brain" is in a place that the Architect can see.

Ergo, The Matrix.
Zion is the Matrix.

Neo jacked into the matrix from the Nebuchadnezzar it is possible the Architect knows neo is hacking and through the system itself he can monitor Neo's brain. In the first film Smith was able to 'feel' that Neo Trinity and Morpheus were not out of the Matrix after the helicopter crashed, so if their location is found they can pretty much see inside of them. Plus the Architect doesn't KNOW the future, he gathers information from Neo and after the goes past the tree of choices then he knows what Neo is going to do, and changes the Plan to handle the anomaly.

If you see The Matrix as the system of control... then Zion is of course part of the Matrix, because it exist to be an option to those who don't accept the program.

If you see The Matrix as just the dream world, then Zion is not the Matrix.
It is of course impossible to prove Zion is a dream world, we do have hints but if Zion wasn't real... who would SAVE Neo when he wakes up and it's flushed down the pipes. If he can't even walk because of atrophy in major muscle groups. Then again technically if you were born in the real world after living in the Matrix, you'd be like a baby, coudn't walk, talk, etc. And I dont see how someone like that would pose such a threat to the machines.

Your thoughts

Zion is not the matrix.

Just becuase the Archetect says that he sees the "pre-cursurs", that doesn't prove that Zion is IN the Matrix. Nothing that the Archetect says can be trusted He has an agenda.

It is very clear that Zion is not the Matrix. Observe the choices taken in cinematography, clothing, and archetecture, while filming. It is obvious that the Brothers (Wachowski) wanted Zion to be a distinct opposite of the Matrix. Zion is gritty and "real" in every sense.

I believe that the chemical processes that the Archetect observes, are changes in Neo's code. Neo can see the code that makes up the Matrix...I would imagine that the Archetect could be able to do the same thing....he is the Archetect, after all. Remember that things that happen in the Matrix can effect the electrochemical processes of the body in the "real world"......and vice versa The best example is if you die in the Matrix, you die in the "real world" also. Also consider the changes in code, and electrochemical process when the Merovingian administered the program he wrote (the cake) to that fine little honey when he got her pussy wet.

The Archetect is in the Matrix along with Neo. One door is to get out of the building which eventually blows up, the other door goes to "The Source". The machines want Neo to go to "The Source", so that he can propogate his "code" through out the Matrix.

Purpose is one of the major themes of the Film. From the stand point of the Machines, Neo's purpose is to return to the Source to add balance to the controls that the Machines have put in place. However, the anomoly, i.e., "choice", goes against the concept of purpose. Nothing that the Archetect says should be trusted, because all of the Machines/Programs have agendas, as I stated earlier. Even the apparently benevolent Oracle directs Neo to the Merovingian and Key Master. Why would Neo have to get the Key Master?.....so he can get to the door that goes to the Source. This is the dilema/paradox of the Film. Neo apparently has this destiny. Everyone, Morpheous, The Oracle, The Archetect, all want him to fulfill his destiny. But this apparent destiny/Prophesy, as Neo described, is simply another control mechanism, so that the machines can remain in power.

Bottom line....Zion is NOT the Matrix.


E

choice is the solution that allows humans to accept the Matrix, and this choice is what created the anomaly.
Stating the machines have agendas, have nothing to do with whether machines can't be trusted. The Oracle tells Neo he can't know whether she's here to help him or not, as much of an agenda she has, that statment remains true regardless. If Smith, the Oracle, the Merovingian and the Architect cannot be trusted, then you watched an action flick. While machines have no need to tell the truth, I don't see why machines would Lie, remember everything the oracle said has come true, it all has however come true bacuse SHE SAID IT.
While Zion is grity and all, remember Smith stated that humans define their reality through misery. Zion is after all misery, ask Cypher. Eating the same goop everyday, no stake, or baked potatoes. While it is opposite of the Matrix, Zion exist to control the anomaly and we don't know if it's real. The very idea of everyone living outside of the Matrix isn't real.

If the chemical changes in Neo's brain is a code, then there is no difference between humans and machines. The choice of word chemical which let us know that Neo is human and is not his code, but like the Merovingian explained:

each line of the program creating a new effect - CAUSE
each CHOICE changing the One's Path - CAUSE

just like poetry. First, a rush... heat... her heart flutters. -EFFECT
The chemical precursors in Neo's body - EFFECT

What is it then, what is the reason? And soon it does not matter,
soon the why and the reason are gone, and all that matters is the feeling itself. This is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely out of control.
AND
But we already know what you are going to do, don't we? Already, I can see the chain reaction - the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason - an emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth. She is going to die, and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

zuntzu wrote:

Already, I can see the chain reaction - the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion,...

The architect is not actually talking to Neo, but his projection in the Matrix - his latent self image or whatever.

If Neo blushes while in the matrix it would be because his mind has sent a signal to his (projected) body to blush.

Would the Architect know he was going to blush before he did it? Probably

Emotion may be a mind thing, but it's felt through the body, churny stomach on your first date, sinking Feeling as you get bad news etc.

All the Architect is doing is monitoring the signals from Neos brain to his pretend body.

I don't think this proves anything regarding the nature of Zion.


(see how I ducked out of actually expressing a MWM opinion there )

Indeed, when Neo is attacking the building, he is in the matrix. So when he is at the Architect, the question is: "is he still in the matrix ?". I believe so, although he has been transferred to a different location by entering the door. Much the same as he was transferred to the mountains by entering the door at the French guy.

So, the Architect is reading Neo's emotions. I would say that this is completely normal, since the Matrix is now controlling Neo's brain. Everything he sees, smells, feels is because the Matrix tells him so.
Remember that controlling a human in the Matrix goes VERY far. The Matrix reads everything. If you like to move your arm, the Matrix senses these electical impulses and moves your arm. Actually it does NOT move your arm really, it just tells your brain and eyes that your arm HAS moved to the position you desired.

So of course the Architect can read emotions, desires. The Matrix knows everyting we want or do, because it senses everyting. It goes even further ! We feel emotions because the Matrix wants us to. Like he said: "specifically designed (!) to overrule logic". If the Matrix wasn't designed for it, we wouldn't feel emotions !

Quote:

So, if the Architect can monitor "chemical precursors", he is monitoring the chemical make-up of Neo's brain. If he is monitoring Neo's brain, he must be observing it from somewhere... Granted, bio-electric stimuli both from the brain and to the brain are responded to by the head-jack connection to the Matrix. But the Architect doesn't say he is watching electricity, transmitted data, nor even the iconic representation of Neo's consciousness in the Matrix (avatar). No, the Architect is stating quite clearly he is seeing the chain reaction - the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion,...

I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not Zion is real. Assuming Neo is human (which i think ur assuming also) Neo does have to be physically somewhere and is plugged into the matrix. Irrevelant to where he is, he is connect and the machines have access to everything that is connected. Well maybe not complete access, but atleast he's connected.....

Cypher said in M1 something like pretty soon you don't even see the code, all you see is what the code represents. - just a paraphrase

I think its safe to assume the code is what the architect is seeing and just describing what it represents.

I agree with Andromeda's statements about the Matrix not being limitted to who is and who isn't plugged in, but by the machines sphere of control... that seems to be a core theme the W.Bros. are addressing. If a level of control is roughly equated to a layer of the matrix, then sub & super matrices are very plausible, hence MwM most logical. I noticed many folks questioning the motive behind Zion's role. I can think of many possible functions of Zion, but the newest one is:
Zion is a realm where humans think they have the most choice, hence the machines can study it and attempt to capture the aspects of that environment to incorporate into patches, updates and future versions of the Matrix. This way, if the machines are properly recognizing what makes life in Zion preferrable to life plugged in, they can increase the acceptance rate.
I suggest asking the old classic question, Is it easier for X force Y into doing something, OR Is it easier for X to make Y want to do something?
I suspect the machines have determined, that in the long run, its easier to manipulate most humans into wanting to stay plugged into the Matrix, rather than focusing on making it impossible to unplug.

I don't think that Zion is in the Matrix nor do I think that the Architect knows what Neo is going to do. My reasons are as follows...

Quote:

Nothing that the Archetect says can be trusted He has an agenda.

The Architect wants Neo to go in to "the source" if he goes into the source...he is out of the way, he can go and destroy Zion. If there is no one to try and stop him(who he thinks is a threat)then he doesn't have to worry. Also, the Architect can not read the mind of Neo...the Architect has to be pluged into the Matrix himself....in less he is the Matrix himself(interesting) but if not then he is pluged in himself. What I got out of the meeting between Neo and the Architect was that he was trying to confuse Neo, try to "CONTROL" him, if you will,trying to think that there is no way he could save is love...basicly let one life die than many. All he did was try and confuse him by using big words that more than half the audiance don't know the meanings to try to make him beleive the only way out of the situation is to go to the source.(my thoughts...tell me what you think)

Zion can not be in the Matrix. The reason is simple. If Zion was in the Matrix there would be no war against machiens and humans. The Matrix would just change the programs like they did in the first one with the cat jumping twice and then the door being a brick wall.

Those are my thoughts....tell me what you think of my theroies...

As I read the above I see that everyone has some strong points and some points that are a little execurated. My thoughts are these:

Look at what we have seen in Reloaded: At a surtain point, 2 liberated humans, one Bain and another, have a message from the oracle for Neo. The one with the message gets out of the Matrix, Bane is about to go but then Smith comes along: He copy's himself in the input signal of bane. Then he gets "beamed" out of the matrix.

Bane in zion is Smith. the only reason why he doesnt look like smith is that the subroutine about apereance doest work outside of the part of the matrix that we call the matrix. The program isnt written to look like an agent outside of what we know as the matrix.

Smith a program is in zion. How can a program live in the real world, thats impossible. Zion has to be in the matrix acording to this.

Next fact:

In the real world at the end Neo says: something is different. And he uses his powers in the real world. Neo cant use his powers outside of the matrix, ergo: Neo must be still in the matrix.

Conclusion:

The machines wrote a program that includes 2 levels: What the humans think that is the matrix, and what the humans think that is the real world. Infact its both the same program and the people who are plugged in to the matrix and those who are not are all plugged in to the matrix. In these 2 movies we have not seen the actual real world. This is the sixth version of the matrix and each version includes a zion. The one was an anomaly that came to be in the matrix in the first real version, that the machines just used as another control type. As is the prophecy.

This is what I think that is going on in the greatest trilogy ever. Just a few more days and we can for real see whats going on.

poelo wrote:

This is what I think that is going on in the greatest trilogy ever. Just a few more days and we can for real see whats going on.

Yeah it's going to be interesting to see who is right who is wrong. Me? I am still not sure. If I had to choose right now, I would suggest that it is indeed Matrix in Matrix simply because neo stops the sentinals at the end of M2. That really is a powerful clue there.

The most amazing thing about MWAM'ers is when they say that Smith downloading into Bane is impossible if Zion is not a matrix. Well, they download all kinds of skills to their brains, and this would be equally impossible. So the people of Zion is either brainwashed into believing that the technology they use has gotten furter than possible, or writing information to a human brain is really possible. If it is, then we know that they use the hardlines to copy themselves in and out of the matrix, amd this would also be possible for a human-like program as Smith to do. Bane's body responds to whoever controls it's brain.

I really doubt it that the creators of the matrix would go that far. That a program is copy'd into an actual human brain seems a little bit to science fiction for the matrix to me. I really think he just uses the input signal of bane to show himself in another part of the matrix.

Two quick points. I think it is interesting that had the Architect not mentioned Trinity's entrance into the matrix, Neo'c choice might have been more difficult. We have to assume that the previous ONEs chose the right door, reinserting the code and starting the cycle over again. My only explanation is the Architect needed Neo to chose the door on the left to deal with the Smtih problem, whether in the "real world" or not.

As for the explanation of downloaded information into the "real world", vis a vis Smith into Bane, I think it should be noted that all previous downloads were informational while Smith into Bane would be executable. When Neo is downloaded with Kung Fu, the downloaded information did not control Neo. Neo uses what he now knows, adapts it and improvises it. Smith, on the other hand, controls Bane just as agents control people inside the matrix when needed.

I am not trying to prove one theory over another just throwing out some talking points.

It is difficult to say whether Zion is in the Matrix o nt. I believe that Zion is its own matrix, not inside of "the matrix". Aout the whole chemical reactions thing, Neo is in a place that is nt the matrix, but he is in a place that was created by the Architect, so he could see what was going on with Neo's code. Neo can see code, why couldnt The Architect. Its difficult buit i feel that it is very possible for Zion to be in a seperate Matrix. And about a post about the cinemtogrophy, that has nothing to do with what the matrix is, how do you know that the matrix isnt something even more real. Man its crazy, i cant wait til tomorrow.

insight wrote:

I think it should be noted that all previous downloads were informational while Smith into Bane would be executable

...as I write on my site.

However there might be less difference than one might think. Neo not only "knows" Kung-Fu (as he states) but he also "does" Kung-Fu. All the motoric functions are also uploaded.

The only difference to Bane is, that Neo's "doing" is still controlled by himself, while Bane's "doing" is not controlled by Bane anymore.

Thus the difference might not be ".txt vs .exe" but "ram vs harddrive"

There are endless possibilities to the question: is Zion part of the matrix?
is Zion a upper level of the matrix? Possibly, however, if so the theory may be flawed due to the above arguments (morpheus's encounter with Smith). Perhaps, there is just not one matrix. ahh, maybe , no.
There is the question of good vs. evil as in Neo vs. Smith, were as opposites, postive-negative, ex. atom. with the nucleus being Zion/Matrix/Life. Although, the question of Zion's being within the matrix is a possibility it is somewhat doubtful due to the amount of information needed. It would make this movie even more confusing than it already is. But, i'm a newbie so what do i know .

Neo looks at Bane/Smith in the "real" world and sees him as a flaming Agent Smith. Agent Smith hypothetically speaking is only code, not a physical entity. Why, then, would Bane look like Smith in the real world unless it was a residual self-image? Further evidence of a MWAM.