»Neo: 100% Human, 100% Machine«

stinkz, your problem is that in a battle of wits, you show up unarmed.
I don't have a problem with Christians, so long as they have basic respect for other groups. I do think you are addicted to negative attention, and/or on some form of prescription medication of which you may need a second opinion for as to whether or not you should continue it's use.
If this is not true, then God help you.

@Atreides:

I am sorry if you have stated this clearly in one of your many replies, but I get annoyed when reading how ignorant followers of any great religion is, regarding their strong sense of being right when they actually are outnumbered by the belief of being right by the followers of the other religions combined. Do Christians actually believe that most of the worlds population go to hell when they die? How cruel is that?

Well, anyway, sorry for my rant, I just wanted to ask if you have a purpose in your life? Or do you expect to find one?

@Stinkz:

Even if I disagree with you, I still find some of your thoughts interesting. If God is the man you say he is, he would probably like you.

When we die, we may find that I had Jesus deep in my heart all the time, but you didn't, so I get into heaven and you don't. How would that be for a plot twist?

I really don't know, Stinkz seems to think that the Christian belief system is the 'right' one. I was brought up a catholic I had the fear of God and the Devil driven in to me at a very young age ~ however I turned my back on all that shit a long time ago. I don't like to be controlled.
The God of the Old Testament was nasty...
I don't claim to know alot about the Muslim faith, but the 'Holy' Bible is just another infusion of ancient beliefs, stolen ideas from Egypt, Persia etc.. I think you should look yourself for an answer to these questions ~~ After-all no one can tell you what to believe...

"what would have been its "actual" form..." -aitrides
I am not interested in discussing your vague questionings.

Funny how you accuse me of accusing you...

No problem on the discrepency thing...

Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.

When the Qur'an speaks about the annunciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.

The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").

These are just a few... I'm sure if you do a little searching yourself you will find many more.

"Which did not include Islam..."
Who's accusing now?

I apologize about my prior mis-claim about changes, I was thinking about the book of Mormon... not the Quran.

I accuse without bringing evidence? How so?

Heres a good killing reference...

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Ogami, your problem is that, when proven wrong, you resort to petty insults. I don't have a problem with people like you, except when they try to prove their beliefs through vagueness and stupidity. You somehow think that the only quality that makes a religion "good" is its respect for other religions. What truth is there in that? The only thing that would make a religion "good" is truth. If a religion has respect for other religions, it is agreeing that it is just as invalid as everything else. If you really knew the truth, and you knew it didn't lie in just any belief, would you sit there and let everyone believe whatever they want to? No. You would try to convince them otherwise. Its not that I just want to combat you... its that I want to save you from your self-deception.

@Ogami Itto:

You rule man. Most of your stuff is way above my head, and that link you gave me seemed bizarre when trying to say something nice, but you still rule.

I guess everyone in here has their own view on the plot of the matrix movies, but I guess I am the only one who believes that they discover being part of a matrix story, originally portraying them as characters in a movie about a matrix, but later as characters in an online videogame. They understand they can never be real.

Just kidding.

@emp,

emp wrote:

regarding their strong sense of being right when they actually are outnumbered by the belief of being right by the followers of the other religions combined.

You certainly know that the more ‘walled-off” and “isolated” people become, they tend to reinforce their belief in order to “rationalize” or “vindicate” their believes against the majority. They subconsciously are aware of the fact that their resistance and being negated by the majority is their last resort to keep them from insanity, since they are still recognized as “sane” by the majority.

emp wrote:

Do Christians actually believe that most of the worlds population go to hell when they die? How cruel is that?

Yes we will go to hell, and just ask them about the punishments that awaits us. Cruelty fades out in the face of our fate as described by Muslims or Christians.

I think we must have a mutual definition of the word purpose before we discuss such a term.

Regards,

Atreides

@Atreides:

I can only give you mine, and if you find that you would like to call it something else before you answer, please do.

Purpose I define as a feeling of having, and knowing, that there is a greater meaning to existence than just the many aspects of evolution.

Since I have never had this feeling, I can only describe the lack of it, and thus my definition is rather vague. A different approach would be to ask why the first cell decided to split, or why our brains only seem to choose between fear or lazyness?

Hope you can use your intuition to fill in any questions you might have.

wow... this is becoming laughable...

emp... how is a belief cruel? Are you being harmed in some way by my belief? Or, if my belief is true, are you harmed just because I believe it? No. The reality is that I actually do believe it and that is why I am here and why so many Christians risk their lives going to other countries to spread the news of the gospel. Their objective is to save people from suffering... is that cruel?
I'm pretty sure when your heart is exposed at the time of judgement we will not find Jesus. Jesus won't come into your heart unless you let him. God is not going to find you righteous just because you believe whatever you want to believe. You can think that Christianity is cruel, but until you understand it, you will just continue to spread your lies.

Another Smith... good job. I'm glad to see that you were able to "free" yourself from the obvious opression you were under. Think about it... it is easy for someone who is evil to say... "good and bad are just concepts made up by people in power to control us!" However, everyone knows that there is true right and wrong in their hearts, and the ability to act accordingly is what separates us from being merely biologically controlled entities.

wow emp, I'm glad you can't see through the obvious mind-trap Ogami is putting you into. It is his goal to make everything he says seem somehow "over your head." But do you really think he just has some vastly superior understaning of the universe? Please...

@stinkz

stinkz wrote:

Funny how you accuse me of accusing you...

When and what have I ever accused you of ?

stinkz wrote:

Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property. When the Qur'an speaks about the annunciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21. The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").

Either you have studied all this on your own, or you have simply used Google.Any way you or anybody interested in such issues can get their answer from a website like this:
islamicity.com...


Your first evidence as a discrepancy is just a simple mathematical issue, and is one of the main reasons Muslim clerics claim that people needs them to interpret Quran.

This is a credible translation of those verses:

11. Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah. and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

12. In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah. and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.

13. Those are limits set by Allah. those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.

No comment on the above verses

But even if one accepts your definition of discrepancy, you have not provided any evidence that there has been any changes in the text of Quran.

stinkz wrote:

Which did not include Islam..." Who's accusing now?

I did not accuse you of anything. Although it is highly unlikely that you are asking my personal opinion, but I still consider –do not believe – that your evidences are not only controversial, they come in bits and pieces, many times negating each others, very high probability web-based, in other words "artificial". But then again it is just the way I perceive it, I maybe very wrong in this, you are the “one” who knows for sure.

As I have stated before, I’m not debating over Islam. I’m not here to convince you of anything. As I mentioned before you could easily get convincing evidence contradicting yours from that website.

About your so called “killing references”: Quran is full of such references, I neither did ask you about Homicidal references in Islam, nor tried to imply that such references do not exist.

stinkz wrote:

I apologize about my prior mis-claim about changes, I was thinking about the book of Mormon... not the Quran.

I’m still not clear if you think there is only one version of Quran or more ? By the way I see no reason for apology, although it shows your courtesy and I am grateful for that.

I certainly could realize if you don not desire to discuss any of my questions.

As you have certainly noticed I clearly stated that

atreides wrote:

it seems to me that you are constantly trying to accuse otheres, including me, without bringing forth any evidence.

At least your intention to provide evidence for your claims - regardless of their validity - is admirable.

I have clearly stated on more than one occasion that these are not my claims but “facts” which I have not defined.

Yet you have not – deliberately or not – replied to many of my inquires. Therefore I see no reason in their iteration.

Regards,

Atreides

Yes, atreides, you are quite observant. I have not studied the Quran in detial, and yes, I did use google once or twice when trying to read up on it. However... what I have read of the Quran, and what I have found when I read about it, is that it goes against what we know to be right and wrong. The fact that I could so easily find a site, even sites by Muslims, which outline discrepencies in their own scriptures lets one know that it is not infallible. I have never heard anyone recommend the Quran as a good piece of reading material... however, I have been recommeded, and would recommend the Bible, especially the New Testament to anyone... including non-believers. Maybe through reading some of its wisdom you will get an idea for why I can believe what it says.

stinkz wrote:

If the world is truly randomly formed and we have no purpose on this earth

The fact that we have appeared by atomic causality here does not forbid us
to create our own meaning for the life.

stinkz wrote:

then tell me, why do you have morals?

Moral is just a rational way to prevent other pain. Pain is bad, and we have clearly
in our minds that bad is "bad". If you do bad things, bad things will happen to you,
so moral is a tool for surviving.
And intelligence/consiciencious is justa a natural developed mechanismo of surviving. Thats why we have morals.

stinkz wrote:

Anyways, on to your incredibly ignorant claims about capatalism. I think you need to take a visit here...

hehe.. it seems you think I live in a non-capitalist country.. well, I live in a well "developed" one (besides the USA efforts to make all other countries crash ) and I still think capitalism sucks.

We appeared because of "Atomic causality"... hmm... probabilities seem to prove the opposite. Anyways, even if we did appear here by that method, we should be able to trace back each effect to its previous cause. If this is true, then there must have been a first, all encompassing cause. What was that? A big... bang!?

"If you do bad things, bad things will happen to you, so moral is a tool for surviving." -strav
Umm, what if someone murders and gets away with it? He has had no consequences for his actions and therefore does not fall into your category. Besides, that doesn't explain why children, never having been exposed to murder before, can clearly see the wrong in it. I mean, I'm sure you have felt guilty about doing something wrong before... only now you have made the ultimate rationalization for your wrong... "morals are just made up." Now you can decieve yourself into thinking that the wrong you do is no longer wrong.

We do not have morals for any of the reasons you suggested. If what you say is true, then what authority does a government system have to enfore laws on you? What right do they have to tell you that theft or rape are wrong and punish you for it? Is it that the majority agrees on it? No. The reason we have laws like this is because we KNOW innately that certain things are wrong. It is not until one commits these evil acts that they become accustommed to them, and can do regularly what most decent people find disgusting. Therefore, it is in our best interest to set up a government system which does not allow for such acts.

We could not possibly have developed all this for survival... think about the concept of love. Love can make someone be willing to die for another person, how is this a concept for survival?

Let me ask you a question... do you think what Hitler did was wrong? Even though he may have thought that he was doing the right thing, was it still wrong? Did we have the right to stop his actions and take him out of power?



Wow... seeing how your political stance is just as ridiculous as your religious one... at least we know you are consistant.
I guess I can see how the USA wants to make all other countries crash... I mean... giving our enemies food... thats a terrible thing.
America is mostly capitalist because capatalism works. Communism, on the other hand, doesn't. There is a fundamental flaw in communist thinking... it is in the nature of man. Man's nature is innately sinful and selfish. A person will not work as hard as he can all day when he knows that the amount he will recieve in return will be constant no matter how much he does. People will not continuously work hard for the good of society, they will only work hard if it is for their own personal benefit. This is why capatalism works so well. Capatalism has all people work for their own personal gain which in turn benefits the society. But, I guess that somehow sucks....

@emp

Dear emp,

Let me reply to your inquiry, from another facet. As far as I remember, at the age of 18 I had fashioned my predominant theory about existence. I will recapitulate that theory, which I can not remember more than in bits and pieces now.

I said that: “There exists no Matter – everything is a dream.” , there exists only a Single Awareness. This Single Awareness is, in term comprised of infinite awareness*. Based upon this, I could easily describe how anything could be One and Many at the same time. I extended my theory that this Single awareness is a “dreamer”. Every awareness of this Single Awareness dreams its own dream, but where their dreams meat in common,their "collective" dream “constructs” the “universe” as we know of it.

I could explain everything with this theory. “Death”, was when an awareness stopped dreaming, and became a non-dreamer, which could could have not existed, because at the same instance a “non-dreamer” would be recruited by another awareness, shaped and “Born”. I could explain every supernatural phenomenon, like when an awareness “grasps” that everything is a "dream", he can dream another dream, something that other awareness bound to the “common dream” could only perceive as an abnormity…………one could never die…….

This is not my “predominant theory” anymore……

emp wrote:

Purpose I define as a feeling of having, and knowing, that there is a greater meaning to existence than just the many aspects of evolution.

Define "greater".? How do you interrelate "greater meaning", and "evolution” in your worldview. Since they both could be attributed to “existence” does it it mean that one precedes or negates the other? Define “greater meaning”.

emp wrote:

Since I have never had this feeling, I can only describe the lack of it, and thus my definition is rather vague. A different approach would be to ask why the first cell decided to split, or why our brains only seem to choose between fear or lazyness?

“Why did the first cell decided to split?”, you are referring to a “cell” as it has the “will” to decided whether to divide or not. Don’t you rather ask another question? If not please elaborate.

emp wrote:

only

between fear or lazyness? No other emotion? Please elaborate too.

Regards,

Atreides

*You could simply substitute awareness with “conscious”, cognizant…..whatever suits you best, not the relevant issue

atreides... no one could possibly be honest with themselves and believe that theory. All humans are just in a common dreamworld... I mean come on, what evidence is there for this? Try basing theories on a little reality rather than vague claims about the nature of the universe or some kind of collective consciousness. It's a good thought and I'm sure you'd like to believe that by just "waking up" you could live forever, but don't you think that if someone had figured this out that he would teach others how to do this and there would be no more death? Well... I guess theres no way to completely prove you wrong, so, you could be right then....... No, it doesn't work like that.

@Stinkz:

Quote:

emp... how is a belief cruel? Are you being harmed in some way by my belief? Or, if my belief is true, are you harmed just because I believe it? No. The reality is that I actually do believe it and that is why I am here and why so many Christians risk their lives going to other countries to spread the news of the gospel. Their objective is to save people from suffering... is that cruel?

I see no reason why you are better suited to find the truth then me. I find it reasonable to believe in nothing. Rather then believing in morals that doesn't mix with the way I see the world, and hearing stories I find boring compared to scientific proof of evolution, alien theories or the matrix movies.

I know that there is no fooling God when I die, so I am going to hell. I do not believe in him, and so I must pay. I must be tortured in flames for eternety.

I see that as cruel. I am sorry if you don't think it is cruel, but I think you might have had a different childhood then me.

@Stinkz:

Quote:

It is his goal to make everything he says seem somehow "over your head." But do you really think Ogami just has some vastly superior understaning of the universe? Please...

No. He doesn't. But he posted me a link, which I never have examined fully, because my brain seems to go into a recursive loop that overloads the stack in my brain, and thus denying me to investigate further.

By doing that I referred to it as above my head. I am sorry for any misunderstandings.

@atreides:

Quote:

I could explain everything with this theory. This is not my “predominant theory” anymore……

I see the way you tried to explain existence, but I see no purpose in the dreamworld you are describing, and it does did not tell me what you think at the present time in your life.

As a reference, I see the Christian purpose for existing as believing in God, and thereby living eternaly in heaven where everything is better. In what way it is better, I think they mostly decide individually. The theory you are proposing does not contain a purpose for existing, and the reason or meaning for the dreamworld may be no different than for our world.

Quote:

Define “greater meaning”. “Why did the first cell decided to split?”, you are referring to a “cell” as it has the “will” to decided whether to divide or not. Don’t you rather ask another question? If not please elaborate. between fear or lazyness? No other emotion? Please elaborate too.

"Greater meaning" is closely connected to Stinkz remark about the search for purpose as evidence that it exists. It may not exist, There wouldn't have to be a purpose if there was no one there to ask what it was. But since we are here and are asking, there has to be purpose to it. If this is correct I suppose purpose would be connected to what happens when you die. If nothing happens, there is no individual purpose, but there may still be a collective purpose. I am interested in either.

What troubles me alot is that many religions and theories seem to indicate that you never really die. You burn in hell or party in heaven, or maybe are reincarnated, for eternity. What about those who are tired and just want to die?

As being alive makes you able to think about purpose, maybe the existence of life is connected to purpose, and the point in history when the first cell decided to split the moment when purpose was born.

If we see our intelligence as the key to purpose, we can ask the fear/lazyness question. It seems that the majority of human actions are driven by theese factors. So the reason for the way our minds work could provide us with a purpose for existing.

Ok, you see no reason why anyone else should be able to find the truth while you can't... I can understand that feeling. However, you have been brought up in a society which pounds secularism down your throat. You have been conditioned to try to come up with natural explanations for everything including our purpose. However, there is a point where this idea must end. Where did matter come from? Has it always existed? Was there never a time before it existed? Could something so intricately designed have come into existance by chance? Nothing natural can answer these questions. My point of view is... if, according to our natural laws, matter must have existed for all eternity and will continue to exist for all eternity (-infinity to +infinity) then there must be an infinate being, existing outside the boundaries of time, who created it. This is part of the reason I believe in God. However, if you think you can adequately answer these questions in a natural way then fine, you can believe we have no purpose.

I do not think that I am better suited to find the truth than you are. It is only through God's grace that I have found Jesus. If you will open your heart and truly seek after God, he will answer you. Meanwhile, I will continue to pray for you.

emp... it is not simply because you do not believe... it is because of sin. God is perfect. Therefore, back when humans were perfect (Adam and Eve) God could commune with them. However, because of Satans deception, Adam chose to reject God and sin. It was because of this sin that God could no longer commune with us. We were now imperfect beings, with our own knowledge of good and evil. Our imperfection is why, in the Old Testament, that there was a system of cleanings and only the High Priest could go once every so often to talk to God. However, God could not stand to have this much separation between Himself and us, so he sent his son (Jesus) to pay the penalty of death which each of us deserved so that through trusting in Christ, when he looks upon us, he sees the perfection of Christ. Now God is able to commune with his creation once again. You see, hell is not what Dante's inferno makes it out to be... it is an eternal separation from God. It is a denial of our true purpose. And yes, this is what we Christians are trying to save you from.

@emp

First of all your attention toward my reply is highly appreciated. You have also correctly interpreted my approach toward this subject. Now I have some more questions for you.

Second, in order to prevent any confusion, whenever I refer to the word “purpose”, I mean “The Purpose”, the goal of the existence as we are aware of it.

emp wrote:

It may not exist, There wouldn't have to be a purpose if there was no one there to ask what it was. But since we are here and are asking, there has to be purpose to it

Could I infer from your statement that purpose exists, because humans exist, in other words without the human species there would exist no purpose? For not getting into a debate, and for the arguments sake, we will consider that the existence of the universe, prior to the creation of the mankind served as a “mean” for the apparition of the mankind; else there would be no “purpose” to the universe before our species. Now consider the available options to your argument :

1. Humankind will eventually become extinct or evolve, both meaning that there would be no human specie, hence there will be no purpose defined or felt by humans.
2. The end of the Humankind means Judgment day and Resurrection as described by the Scriptures, purpose exists and is exactly as the respective religion describes it.
3. We will encounter another intelligent species, we all have speculated that possibility, and we have speculated what will happen to religions as we know today, hence our definition of purpose will change.
4. There is no purpose.

As you see there is only one option where purpose could exist.

emp wrote:

If this is correct I suppose purpose would be connected to what happens when you die. If nothing happens

You are proposing the possibility that purpose could be the answer to “life” after “death”, please elaborate on your statement, am I to presume that if there is no life after death, this means that there is no purpose?

emp wrote:

But since we are here and are asking, there has to be purpose to it............ and the point in history when the first cell decided to split the moment when purpose was born.

As we both know the very first mitosis has occurred before the existence of Homo sapiens, considering what you mentioned before you are proposing two different theories

1. Purpose exists because Human does.
2. Purpose existed before Human and not related to.

Which one are we discussing?

Now forget all I have written before. Every academia, every school claims that they have “the” answer and they will define the very purpose of life. You have certainly noticed that they all claim to be “true”, which bring us back to the question what is the ultimate true, and could it exist without the ultimate “wrong”?

I would like you to ask a question from your very “self”. Since you are from Norway, I could safely assume that you are living in a Christian society and you have at least a basic understanding about it, if not more. Why Christianity does not give you a satisfactory answer? Why no other religion ever gave you a satisfactory answer to your utmost basic questions, unless you “believe” in them.

You also have noticed that we have some allegedly “true Believers” in this forum among us, and you certainly have noticed that they are willingly to provide you with the answers to your question “because” they “believe” their answers to be “true”.

Again ask yourself that question: "Why no religion ever gave you a satisfactory answer to your utmost basic questions, unless you “believe”ed in them?

Now a bit humor:

Consider that everybody in this world or any other world “believed” in Christianity or Islam or any other religion with Heaven and Hell, since we were all believers, who would go the “Hell”? Maybe it will become another heavenly attraction* ?

Now I’ve heard that in Norway everything has already frozen!!!! - got some relative there -, I suppose that “Hell” with all its “Eternal Fires” won’t do so much harm to our Scandinavian or Antarctican brothers and sisters…….

Now I myself prefer one of the Asgard halls, like say how about Valhalla ?

**How funny of all those "Believers", they never suspect that their very own religion would not have existed if there were no "Non-believers".

Regards,

Atreides.

P.S. There is no need to answer my question, but you are welcome to inquire further.

atreides... whats with your bogus logic? Right does not exist because of wrong... nor is Christianity true because you don't believe it.

Christianity does answer your "utmost basic questions" whether you believe or not.

@emp,

Excuse my "Bogus" logic, at least I have been granted to have a logic.
it was meant for your eyes only........

stinkz wrote:

whats with your bogus logic? Right does not exist because of wrong... nor is Christianity true because you don't believe it. Christianity does answer your "utmost basic questions" whether you believe or not.

Just compare it to my last post.........very predictable

Our beloved "stinkz" could represent one of the bests sample we could ever get our hans on.

I`m grateful to him for doing something that I could not have accomplished without his help.

Regards,

Atreides

I`m grateful to him for doing something that I could not have accomplished without his help. -atreides
You speak the truth my friend
You, I might add seem to have got your point across very well, With a little help from Stinkz of course....

atreides... if you need me to point out the holes in your logic, I will do so.


1. emp said, "But since we are here and are asking, there has to be a purpose to it"

atreides... that does not mean that becase humans exist there is a purpose, but because humans exist and all are innately searching for purpose, purpose exists.

2. There are not only four available options as to the purpose of our species, and even if there were, aliens would not be one of them.

3. "There is only one option where purpose could exist."

Care to enlighten us as to which one?

4. "As we both know the very first mitosis has occurred before the existance of Homo sapiens"

Good call shirlock... if evolution truly happened, then that would seem logical.

5. "you are proposing two different theories 1. Purpose exists because human does 2. Pupose existed before human and not related to."

How could our purpose be not related to humans... that makes no sense.

6. "Now forget all you have read before"

THERES a good plan... basically you are telling him to put away all the knowledge he has gained and just take your word for it...

7. "what is the ultimate true, and could it exist without the ultimate 'wrong'?"

Truth is not made true by something else being wrong. Truth is. Something is made wrong by being contrary to true.

8. "Why no other religion ever gave you a satisfactory answer to your utmost basic questions unless you "believe" in them."

The true answers to your basic questions are out there somewhere. whether or not you find the answer, the answer still exists. When you think you have found the answer you "believe" your answer to be true. Therefore, if you found Christianity to be true, of course you would believe in it. If you don't believe in it, you don't believe it to be the answer to your questions.

9. "they are willingly to provide you with the answers to you question 'because' they 'believe' their answers to be 'true'"

Why are "because" and "true" in quotation marks? Anyways, you make an argument here which has no grounds. Yes, people who believe they have found the answer, when asked, will give you the answer they have found. That is obvious. If you thought you found what our purpose was... you would "believe" your answer to be "true."

10. "How funny of all those "believers", they never suspect that their very own religion would not have existed if there were no "non-believers."

That makes no sense. If there were no non-believers, then everyone would agree... therefore there would be no need for the designation of it as a certain "religion," however, it would still exist.

11. "our beloved 'stinkz' could represent one of the bests sample we could ever get our hans on."

An example of what? Someone who believes in something? Someone who believes he has found his purpose? Yes, I do believe that I have found my purpose. I look at people like you, who reject religion and accept the relativistic garbage spoon-fed to you by today's society... and I see people who are lost. You try to find our purpose by vague questionings about the nature of the universe and misunderstandings of complex issues like Quantum mechanics. However, I also see that you never get anywhere. Though you may claim to be searching for the answer, you never find it, or believe it doesn't exist. I cannot buy that. I notice that we HAVE purpose and long to have it... that there is order and design to the world... that there are moral absolutes which even infants can recognize... These factors all point towards the existance of a God. I look to the Bible and see how it unfolds the truth about our existance and life begins to make sense. This is why I believe I have found our purpose.


P.S. The singular of species is species... not specie.

@atreides:

It is very possible that there is a purpose that does not have anything to do with the creation of life or the human species. As an example we might be in a universe-simulation where we are nothing new. Then our purpose would be to do what our creators intended. Evolve. My purpose was not attatched to my personal existence.

I also think that the next step in evolution will still include the quest for purpose. I think it will haunt us forever. That means that any alien species have the same problem.

We are all just effects of the cause that this universe provide a habitat for life. Life may sometimes evolve into intelligent beings. Theese beings will sooner or later try to understand their own existence. Any unexplainable or great actions will be interpreted as acts of a being who is all powerful by many of theese beings. The all powerful being is maybe just the universe itself, with no ability or intention to aid a spesific human being in its life, or provide a desirable afterlife.

But the creating of intelligent life, being able to seek meaning is the main issue. It really seems that if purpose exists, it is connected to the ones seeking it. When the body containing the mind dies, the purpose of its life might be obvious, or explained. But since this is so difficult to believe in, I like to try to find a purpose while I am alive.

Well, to your question about Norway. I am as a default born into the state church. I was baptised and did some other stuff around the age of 15 as a tradition to get money. I am still a member, but I don't like it. I am just lazy.

I learned alot about Christianity in school, and know all the classic tales. I find them boring. I know it's a hoax, and have always been amazed of how people could act so stupid. What if one religion was suddenly proven right? How stupid would the others feel? They would in fact be clinically mad. Everybody would be medicated. But I see the basic idea as a good one, and know that Christians can do wonders for drug addicts and homeless people. But again this goes for all religions, so it is just a feature of the human brain.

But then we are back to the point about intelligence being connected to purpose. Why are our brains made this way, or why isn't the answer more obvious if it weren't supposed to be "figured out"?

Hope you have some views on this...