»Neo: 100% Human, 100% Machine«

How many billion murders have been done in the name of Christianity? No religion is better than others, but Christianity is near the top of the killer list.

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emp, why would a randomly formed brain have to deal with purpose at all?

Humans are originally intended to struggle for survival, like the rest of nature, and thus never have the time to think about purpose. But as we get machines and computers to do our work, we now have this time to think. And no matter how much we think, nobody can provide an answer to our purpose, because there is none. But still, it's better to have no purpose than a purpose that is "to serve God".

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Anyone who really is honest with himself knows that there is more to life than just existance.

How can you decide if I am honest with myself or not? I can see that there is much to life, but there is still no purpose in our existance.

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You claim all others are "foolish" for believing in something which is so blatantly evident.

No, I am just interested in knowing how people can believe in their own little purpose and believe that it is better than the next guys purpose. The only thing I can conclude with is that everybody is blinded by a fear of lack of purpose.

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We ARE here for a reason

Yes, there is a reason for us being here. The big bang and stuff. But we have no purpose.

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Why else does everyone long to have such purpose if we weren't designed to have one?

Most people can't handle the fact that they have no purpose. They go mad just thinking about it. Just like you, Stinky. That is why everybody chooses their own purpose. They big whimps choose purpose in a great religion, the cool guys find purpose in computers and movies, and the sick fucks finds purpose in sacrificing babies. I can't find purpose.

just look at that site... what a bunch of WORDS! Could they be more vague at all? I mean, can't you see past the idea that only you the observer exist and all else is illusion? It is obviously NOT the case. If it is, why not do whatever you want with your life? Kill, steal, do wrong... why not?
Why must we go back to the time of Descartes when he could only prove that he himself existed. Right now you are hearing an opinion which contradicts your own, how then could you be the only existing thing?

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Whats more, Christianity is the only religion which stands on moral absolutism, something without which there would be total anarchy/chaos

That is interesting that you think that.

Buddhism teaches love and compassion for all creatures. We have cognitive experience so that we can think broadly enough to have love for creatures other than that of our species. Most animals are afraid of other creatures, but at our best we can think past the fear and see the beauty inherent in animals like tigersand killer bees. At our worst, we abuse our logic and become Rumsfelds or Jimmy Swaggerts.

Christianity not only is NOT the only religion with morals, it has the escape clause of forgiveness even for the Dahmers and Baby rapists.

I see it like this:
In Christianity, it doesn't matter what you do(you can be forgiven), it only matters that you believe(in Jesus).
In Buddhism, it doesn't matter what you believe(many Zen buddhists don't believe in sidhartha literally), it matters what you do(living your life as a compassionate, responsible being).

By the way, Jesus never preached about/against sin, he preached about/against ignorance. Too bad the Church and it's corrupt, homosexual pedophiles had to be the ones to carry on his message.

EMP, I have mad respect for you, since you use your brain for thinking about things other than self-righteous indignation, and telling others how they should believe. I enjoy reading the intelligent things you post, which lead to a deeper thinking, and therefore, a deeper understanding.

Stinkz, I have mad respect for you, because you are stubborn, and don't give up, even in the face of truths more powerful than your delusions.

emp... dispite what you think you know... Christianity has been and still is one of the most persecuted religions. Yet, it still remains and has created one of the greatest nations in history. As for your killing for Christianity argument, I assume you mean the crusades. The crusades however, were Catholic. Though I do not think that all Catholic's are non-christian, I do think that the practice of their religion contradicts the Bible in many ways. During the time of Constantine, religion was accepted as the state religion and it started to become a requirement that people be baptized, whether they believed or not. This allowed many non-christians into the church and paganized the religion. Christianity became more political than anything else and merely a way to control the lay people. The lay people were only told what the "church" wanted them to hear and were given no access to the Bible. It was not until the time of the Reformers that the true teachings of the Bible started to come out again and the horrific acts like burning at the stake ended.

"nobody can provide an answer to our purpose, because there is none."
Really... So all people are instincively striving to find their purpose BECAUSE there is none.

"it's better to have no purpose than a purpose that is "to server God."
Really... the best and most efficient form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. The only problem with this form of government is that there is no guarantee that the leader will be looking out for the good of the people rather than his own good. But with God, who is, in essesence, LOVE, we have that assurance. I would gladly serve a perfect and Holy God.

"How can you decide if I am honest with myself or not?"
I can only show you the door, it is you who must walk through it.

"I am just interested in knowing how people can believe in their own little purpose and believe that it is better than the next guys purpose."
That is not the point, the point is that there IS a purpose. You seem to have decided in your mind that everyone else is wrong... you have found our true purpose... that there is none.

"The big bang and stuff."
Wow... the big bang... now THAT's a THEORY!

You have succeded in proving me right. We all are searching for a purpose. However, many people look to themselves, look to others, or look to material things to find their purpose. However, those only lead to a feeling of emptiness. The fact that we are searching proves that there IS purpose, though it doesn't prove what it is. At least you acknowledge that you have not found it.



Ogami...that is great that Buddhism teaches compassion for all creatures... but what if another religion doesn't teach that? You said that Buddhism is the same as all other religions... so which is correct?
I did not say that Christianity was the only religion with morals... I said it is the only religion that teaches moral absolutism. You said that Buddhism teaches that all religions are the same, therefore it is based on relativism.
Ogami, you have proven that you have a very poor understanding of Christianity. In Christianity it very much matters what you do. "Faith without works is dead." Yes, the first step is believing, but if it is not shown in your works, then you do not believe. Yes, in Christianity, you can be forgiven. This is because humans are fallible and imperfect beings. No one can live a perfect life... not a Buddhist, Christian or anything, as is seen in todays society where sin is rampant. ANd yes, Jesus did preach about/against sin... what book are you reading? I agree that the Catholic Church has its problems, but these problems stem from its being tainted by pagan religions.

In the face of what truths, Ogami? The truth of relativism? I think not.

The Catholic Church is not the only Christian religion that has degenerates and homosexual rapists for leaders, so you can't blame everything on Pagan influence.

What truths? Ever heard of Gnosticism or the Gospel of Thomas?
Ever heard of Quelle? Read Michael Borg's "The Lost Gospel of Q:the Historical Sayings of Jesus"
here is a synopsis in case you don't have the time or energy to research what you claim to be central to your worldview:

" Borg makes two negative claims about the historical Jesus: he was nonmessianic, which means that he didn't claim to be the Messiah or have a message focused on his own identity, and he was noneschatological, which means that he did not expect "the supernatural coming of the Kingdom of God as a world-ending event in his own generation" (Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time, p. 29). Borg summarizes his view of the historical Jesus in these words: "he was a spirit person, subversive sage, social prophet, and movement founder who invited his followers and hearers into a transforming relationship with the same Spirit that he himself knew, and into a community whose social vision was shaped by the core value of compassion" (op. cit., p. 119). By "spirit person," Borg means that Jesus was a "mediator of the sacred" for whom the Spirit or God was a reality that was experienced. Based on his experience of the sacred, for the historical Jesus compassion "was the central quality of God and the central moral quality of a life centered in God" (op. cit., p. 46). Jesus spoke against the purity system in sayings like "blessed are the pure in heart" and in parables like that of the Good Samaritan. The historical Jesus challenged the purity boundaries in touching lepers as well as hemorrhaging women, in driving the money changers out of the temple, and in table fellowship even with outcasts. Jesus replaced an emphasis on purity with an emphasis on compassion. The historical Jesus spoke an alternative wisdom in aphorisms and parables that controverted the conventional wisdom based upon rewards and punishments. The earliest Christology of the Christian movement viewed Jesus as the voice of the Sophia. The images of Jesus as the Son of God and the Wisdom of God are metaphorical, just as much as the images of Jesus as the Lamb of God and the Word of God. "

investigate a cornicopia of Christianity here:

emp, I have respect for you... you at least realize that we do have purpose, you just haven't found what it is.
Ogami, I have no respect for you... You take the cop-out road and claim you agree with everyone. Well, if thats true, I guess you can never be wrong then! The fact is... your stance is idiotic. The most basic of philosophical laws tell us that somehting cannot be both A and non-A at the same time. So how could two mutually exclusive religions be correct?

Think about it like taking a test, and the question is, what is our purpose? Emp realizes that he does not know the answer, and therefore hasn't answered yet. I think that I know the answer, so I am putting down the answer that I think is correct. Ogami, on the other hand, is saying all answers are equally valid. That is just not the case. By including the correct answer in your multiple answers doesn't make you get the question right.

Ogami, even though most of what you said is garbage... there is some truth there. Jesus did put a new emphasis on purity in the New Testament. This was because the Law that governed us in the Old Testament only proved that we were sinners and couldn't fulfill it. Now Jesus says that the law was written on our hearts. This is true. Each individual has a conscience which tells him whats right and wrong. However, this conscience can be tainted by continued evil. Now, onto the falsehoods. Jesus was Messianic. He made several claims that he was the messiah (if you need me to quote them I will). You are right, his message did not focus on his own identity, his message was our salvation. And, yes, he did say that he would return. You are basically quoting those who call Jesus a prophet even though that is a ridiculous claim. Though not all of your examples of Jesus pushing purity boundares are actually true, those that are are actually teaching that his message was not to the righteous (or those who think themselves righteous) but to the humble. Jesus didn't touch the lepers for shock value... he did it to heal them. And he hung out with tax collectors... to save them.

Your point about Quantum Physics is terrible. The idea that things are determined based on the connection between the observed and the observer I think stems from Einstein's theory regarding special relativity. While he makes a good point that the simultaneity of two events can never be fully determined, that does not, as he suggested, mean that time must be flexible. When velocities are added, Einstein says that there is a difference in the time it would take light to reach the observer from each object, so the velocities cannot be added. However, instead of claiming that distance and time are relative to the speed at which they reach our eye, the speed of light should be considered a part of the equation and the actual motion derived from that rather than relating all motion to an observer. Besides, why base your belief on something you don't understand? Base it on things which are obvious, such as the design behind this world, and the reality of moral absolutes.
Back to Quantum Physics. The fact that we cannot determine the precise location and the speed of particle simultaneously does not mean that the exact position and velocity do not exist, or that somehow the position and velocity is BASED on our observation. It just means that we are unable to DETERMINE certain facts about nature. The electron (assuming we know what one truly is) exists whether or not we have the ability to percieve it. Look up Heisenberg's UNCERTAINTY Principle...

ogami, stinkz has some good points there.

First of all, i dont know what bible version you've been shown, but i urge you to pick up an NIV translation or even the original greek and study it yourself before you make claims about what it says. Jesus preaches openly about sin. He speaks against adultery, against murder, against jealousy. Maybe you searched for the exact word "sin", but even then he says to rebuke those who sin, and flee from the temptation to sin.

The sins he speaks of are from the Ten Commandments given earlier in the bible. Christians treat the Bible as a whole, and the bible speaks out against sin throughout, including homosexuality and other perversions.

The other reason to look at the whole bible is that you see why its not about doing whatever you want and then repenting when you're satisfied. You also see the beauty in Gods creation, as well as the message of love and forgiveness throughout the bible.

I hope that you will try to understand what you're arguing against so you can at least have some respect for stinkz's views, rather than the fact that he stands his ground. I personally would like to know more about Buddhism, if you could help, because I dont understand on what grounds you stand on, or what truths you say you are showing.

You say that all religions are equally valid and that we should have love and compassion for all creatures. Im thankful that you believe in love, but i know some religions call their followers to hate certain things. Certain Muslims are called to hate and murder Christians. Doesnt that contradict your views? In addition, Christianity, for one, claims that it is the only way to salvation and to heaven. Is that not another contradiction to your statement that all religions are buddhism, or that it doesnt matter what you believe?

I dont see Buddhism as freeing your mind. If you believe all things are true, then you never challenge anything and never use your brain to study and learn new things. In regards to your most recent post, you base your arguments not on the bible, but on this guy who does not believe the bible is true. The supposed lost writings or other gospels were rejected because of their inaccuracy. Thats why i've never heard of the Quelle and I certainly have never heard of any hemorrhaging in the Bible. And whatever the heck word he meant instead of hemorrhaging im sure is not in there either.

Please base your attacks against stinkz on facts, not theories.

Wow. This thread is getting good.

It is obvious to me that all great religions is either false or all true. If they are all false ( seems logical, but logic might be the work of Satan!!! ), I am correct in not believing. If they are true, and God is so great that he supports all our custom made religions from time to time, then it does not matter what I believe. I cannot see why one religion should be better then another?

I think Stephen J. Hawking has a point about intelligence might not being a good step in the evolutionary ladder. It has made us make up religions to have excuses for the stuff we do, and that eventually makes someone press a red button believing that he evil enemy must be destroyed at any cost.... In Gods name.

I cannot believe that it is somehow "obvious" to you that either all religions are false or all religions are true. That makes no logical sense. The fact that there are many religions, many of which have stories resembling stories found in the Bible goes to show that there must be some truth to them. Of course, if the stories were not kept in a sacred text, one that could be passed down, unabridged, through the ages, these stories would eventually have evolved. (Besides, if there was a work of Satan, he would not only want to persuade people to not believe, but he would want to corrupt the truth as much as he could, making it look like the real truth). You think you have logically "figured out" that God doesn't exist, yet his creation proves otherwise.

The evolutionary ladder... You know what I find weird... the fact that people can watch X-MEN and if someone tells them that he actually believes that X-MEN are the next step in the evolutionary chain they will laugh at him. I don't see why. If we have somehow evolved into the humans we are, defying all laws of logic and science... then whos to say that X-MEN aren't a possibility? I mean, we evolved an eye, something which, if all the parts of it were not simultaneously created through mutation, would have been weeded out through survival of the fittest. I'm sorry, but if THAT is possible, X-MEN would be a good guess.

I agree there are many references to MANY religions (not only christianism)
but could you guys stop talking about it as it was a real issue ?

There were no Jesus in real life, there is no God, this is all bullshit and this is only a movie... the best movie, BTW.

Religion is a need for lesser minds. If you wanna talk about religion, talk about it as a myth INSIDE the movie. Otherwise get back to your churches...

You see? This is the mindset that is bred into society today... Why is that? No wonder we are seeing a moral decline in our country. Tell me, strav... what really happened.... was there a big... bang.... Yup, thats a good one. Go secular science!
Let's use another example... let's say a European hiker came to the America. One day, on one of his hikes he comes upon Mount Rushmore. Never having heard of Mount Rushmore before he comes to the conclusion that the random flow of water over many centuries caused the rock to resemble four faces.
Yah RIGHT! No moron would be able to conclude that. There was obvious DESIGN to the formation. Yet somehow we have been conditioned to look at life, and all the intricate workings of molecules, cells, tissues, organs even all the way to our own conciousness... and see no design.
THAT, my friend, is for lesser minds...

@Lone Wolf

Have you ever studied Sufism, if not you ought to, it shares many things in common with your current belief.

By the way, do you know what “Simurgh” means? It`s originally Persian.

@stinkz & @spunkle


Do you believe in the “Ever-changing Nature of our universe?” A simple Yes or No suffices.

@stinkz

stinkz wrote:

Though there are many religions who claim to have their "One" such as Mohammed... none were believed to be God and man. Even in some of these religions Jesus is thought to be just a prophet.

Muslim believe in “Mohammed” as their “prophet” not their “messiah”, they also believe in Jesus as the last of the four Great Prophets preceding “Mohammed”.
Different Islamic faction believe in different legends as their “messiah”, but not “Mohammed”.

stinkz wrote:

do not mind that some Christians believe that, for it is keeping them on the right side.

No comment

stinkz wrote:

Whats more, Christianity is the only religion which stands on moral absolutism, something without which there would be total anarchy/chaos.

Comparing to Islam moral absolutism, Christianity fades out. Just consider that Muslims claim that the greatest miracle of “Mohammed”, his "eternal miracle" is the Scripture “Qoran”, not only because it is the word of God, but there has been no change and no disagreement between different Islamic faction over even a one single word.As Muslim say :”Challenge one Human to bring forth even one phrase like in Qoran”

And have you ever studied any other religion with the devotion you gave to Christianity? I don’t think your belief prevents you from doing so.

@spunkle

spunkle wrote:

Certain Muslims are called to hate and murder Christians.

And certain Christian are called to hate and murder Muslims and Jews.* Have you already forgotten Kosovo and Bosnia, or even the Holocaust. I don`t suppose Muslims have forgotten the 9/11 or the bombing of Bali.

Is your statement based upon a credible Islamic religious script? May I ask your reference, I just hope it’s not the Media.

May I ask what is in the nature of those religions that allows its follower to attempt such inhuman acts in spite of preaching the opposite? And please don’t give me the old answer that “it’s the nature of humanity”. If so, what is the purpose of Religion.

Regards,

Atreides.

*I am not Muslim, Jew or Christian, I was born a Human before knowing them.

Do you believe in the "Ever-changing Nature of our universe?"
What a vague and stupid question.

Anyways, I was saying that Mohammed WASN'T a messiah... apparently you agree with me.

Wow, everything you said about the QURAN is untrue. There have been many changes in its text and there definately has been disagreement over its meaning. I mean... obviously Muslims in America don't believe that it tells them to kill Christians, however... the Iraquis disagree.

I don't know how you are claiming that Kosovo, Bosnia, and the Holocaust were Christian created. In fact, there were Christians, like Corrie Ten Boom, who secretly housed Jews to keep them out of danger. Christianity does not call people to murder and never will... stop putting words in God's mouth.

stinkz wrote:

Christianity has been and still is one of the most persecuted religions. Yet, it still remains and has created one of the greatest nations in history.

Sorry you're gonna have to tell me which one, I can't guess

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I mean... obviously Muslims in America don't believe that it tells them to kill Christians, however... the Iraquis disagree.

And that's just plain biggotry.

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... Christianity does not call people to murder and never will... stop putting words in God's mouth.

Christianity may not, but what about the suggestion by nations leaders that "God will protect those who fight in the name of freedom".

And what about Northern Ireland, two Christian sects that have been at each other for longer than anyone I know can remember.

(does god have a mouth?)

Well put Atreides.
Sufism is very cool.

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The supposed lost writings or other gospels were rejected because of their inaccuracy. Thats why i've never heard of the Quelle and I certainly have never heard of any hemorrhaging in the Bible.

Um, how can you know about the accuracy of something you haven't heard of?

BTW, the reason, and I realize this may be difficult for some westernly trained minds, that Buddhism allows all of the other religions to actually be true and valid is the existence of emptiness, which is the reconciliation of everything and nothing.
Because, emptiness exists, all things exist to fill the emptiness. Because all things, and all possibilities exist, they also intersect. What can be absolute and true for you, does not have to exist in my reality paradigm.
I believe that the vastness of possibility in infinite complexities allows anything to be true in any moment. This does not mean that I do not have my existence and experiences. It just means that I exist, though that state is not permanent.
Stinkz:
I believe that murders and stealing and hurting others are wrong. Not because of the fear of punishment or reward or fear of some distant God, but of my own freewill. I think that is what makes those decisions really worthwhile.
Kind of like in the Matrix.

marl64
bigotry... I guess I'm biggoted towards murder...

"Christianity may not, but what about the suggestion by nations leaders that "God will protect those who fight in the name of freedom." -marl64
Well... aren't YOU an advocate of freedom? Would you rather be ruled by a cruel dictator?

Ogami, saying vague things which defy all logic and claiming to agree with everyone does not make everyone agree with you.
Let me ask you a question... you say you believe murder is wrong only because of your own freewill. Does everyone have to agree with you then? Should murderers, who believe of their own free will that murder is right be allowed to murder innocent people? Come on man. You can choose to deny absolutes... but they exist beyond your denial of them and are apparent to most people who haven't trained themselves to believe otherwise.

We ARE ruled by a cruel dictator. Yet, whether you are free or not depends on you.
You say my logic makes no sense. It is an eastern logic, that must be grasped like a fleck of dirt in your bath water.
Oh, and no one believes that murder is "right." If only for the reason that they would not like to be murdered, do they know it is foolish and perverse. So, the murderer arguement is moot, I feel.
And,as for absolutes? Who says I don't believe they exist?
But, what are they? Absolutes are just degrees of the same thing.
Hot is the same as cold(a temperature), but of a different degree.
For, where does hot end and cold begin?
Where does sharp end and dull begin?
Where does light end and dark begin?
It is a judgement based on the observer, that the distinction is made.
But ,as for the absolutes of these opposites:
there is really no difference between positive and negative infinity, there is a reconciliation as the parallel lines get closer together.
There is no difference between the absolute hottest, and the absolute coldest, both will burn you in the holy flame.
Absolutes are beyond our measurement, and manifest in our minds as concepts, and little else. But it is the existence of concepts in our minds that allows us to make leaps of logic and have an intuitive understanding of things that we logically couldn't.
Like the understanding that murder is not beneficial as a doctrine to live by(unless you are a soldier or a president or an oil company executive).

stinkz, check out:

stinkz, check out:

stinkz wrote:

You see? This is the mindset that is bred into society today... Why is that? No wonder we are seeing a moral decline in our country. .

I have strong moral, and this has nothing to do with religious crap. I see science as Carl Sagan prefer to refer, instead of "believe in science". I develop free software because I think of poor child in Africa, which is the ultimately payer for proprietary software/music ...

Matrix moveis are a great tool to make you awake from the capitalism system, and this is a huge parallel in the movie. And religion is one of the most important tools for the system to keep people under control.

Moral is a natural thing. Myths, religious stories are not, their are just placebos for the human need of immortality, which are used by the system to make you pay your bills correctly.

And I am not american btw..

Ogami...
Whether or not you are free does not in any way depend on the individual. If I was taken prisoner, I would not be free, and there would be nothing I could do about it.

I did not say your logic made no sense... I said that you have no logic. What you have is not "eastern logic," it is a self-decieving vagueness.

You claim that no one believes murder is "right." How do you know? Islam preaches to fight and murder for "Allah," many people muder, cheat, and steal. To them it is not wrong to do these things. How can you claim that they are decieving themselves, yet you are not?

Absolutes are just degrees of the same thing... what?
Don't be ridiculous. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Let go of the insane eastern philosophy that right somehow is equal to wrong. It is not the case. If you murder someone, that is wrong. No matter how you jazz it up, it is always wrong. If we were to rid our world of murder, it would be a better place. This has nothing to do with hot and cold. Hot and cold are both relative terms. Right and wrong, however, are not.

let us consider a few of your quotes:
"there is no difference between positive and negative infinity, there is a reconciliation as the parallel lines get closer together.
"emptiness is the reconciliation of everything and nothing"

Why even make such obviously meaningless statements? Do you have nothing to say?

Your understanding of why murder is wrong is not true and you know it. There is a little thing called a conscience which everyone is born with. It allows the person to know right from wrong. I know murder is wrong, not because I see it as non-benificial, I very well could see it as beneficial... however, I KNOW it is wrong in my heart.

strav....
I do not disagree that you might have morals, strav. But from what do these beliefs stem? A conscience? If there is disagreement between two humans over the morality of an issue, who is right? Is the majority correct? The fact is... we are imperfect beings. We have a residual conscience which tells us right from wrong. However, even though this conscience will tell us that something is wrong the first time we do it, the wrong becomes easier and easier to do each time. Therefore your conscience becomes less and less pure.

If the world is truly randomly formed and we have no purpose on this earth, then tell me, why do you have morals? If you are here on accident, why not do whatever you like? Kill, steal, do whatever... can't you see that morality is just a system of control holding you back?
Do you see the flaws in this type of thinking?

Anyways, on to your incredibly ignorant claims about capatalism. I think you need to take a visit here... this is not the page I first found this system on... but when I googled it, it was the first to come up.

@stinkz

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atreides wrote: Do you believe in the "Ever-changing Nature of our universe?" stinkz wrote: What a vague and stupid question.

I will elaborate so it doesn’t seem vague. Do you believe that the physical universe changes every instant or not? Another possibility would be that you don’t have any concept about my question.
Would you please also clarify “the stupidity” behind this question? Please first answer my inquiry, and then explain its stupidity.

stinkz wrote:

Anyways, I was saying that Mohammed WASN'T a messiah... apparently you agree with me.

Then again you are confusing the matter, you said: “….who claim to have their "One" such as Mohammed...”, By the One I assumed you meant a messianic figure.” Mohammed” is neither the “One” nor the “Messiah”.

stinkz wrote:

Wow, everything you said about the QURAN is untrue. There have been many changes in its text and there definately has been disagreement over its meaning. I mean... obviously Muslims in America don't believe that it tells them to kill Christians, however... the Iraquis disagree.

Obviously you neither you take my word as credible nor you have studied Islam. What I mentioned about Quran are facts, not defined by me. I simply don’t understand the reason behind your denial .Quran is the only Scripture which has only one version. “Sonnies”, “Shias ”, all different faction believe in only one version. There are more than a billion Muslims worldwide. You’re certainly familiar with “Hajj”, the holy pilgrimage of Muslims to Mecca, which is an annual mass ceremony. Muslims from different factions gather in Mecca, lay aside their differences and pray to one god as religious brothers, reading one book. Just consider the fact that different versions of Quran, like the Bible are circulating Mecca……..

Original handwritings of Quran are preserved; even saying that there have been changes in Quran is a heresy. I would like to see even one credible reference which claims otherwise. You could simply ask any Muslim cleric regardless of his faction, I suppose you could eventually find a mosque where you live or in a nearby town. You should also consider the fact that different Islamic faction don’t disagree over the “catechism”* – of Islam, but over the minutiae’s.

How do you know that Iraqis disagree and believe that its their religious duty to kill Christians? The resistance that allied forces are encountering stems from Saddam former “Baath” party, which was a right radical nationalist party and discredited by all Islamic authorities. Just consider that Allied forces are “occupying” Iraq –regardless of their intention- which is an Islamic country. All Islamic authorities could have simply ordered Jihad, none did. A crucial milestone. Consider that Najaf is the most praised city in Shia history; the allied forces have wisely avoided entering the city. As of now, no religious authorities has ordered Jihad, which will result in killing Christian, and I suppose there certainly has been causalities from various believes in this war. Saddam and Osama invited Muslim to Jihad, but if you did not know, only certain religious figures with an established rank could do so, not every Muslim.

stinkz wrote:

I don't know how you are claiming that Kosovo, Bosnia, and the Holocaust were Christian created. In fact, there were Christians, like Corrie Ten Boom, who secretly housed Jews to keep them out of danger. Christianity does not call people to murder and never will... stop putting words in God's mouth.

They Bosnia and Kosovo were ethnical genocide done by Christians regardless of their sect. Certainly it does not represent Christianity, but you cannot ignore the fact that all was done in the name of Christianity.

So back to my question:May I ask what is in the nature of those religions that allows its follower to attempt such inhuman acts in spite of preaching the opposite? And please don’t give me the old answer that “it’s the nature of humanity”. If so, what is the purpose of Religion.

I never intended to speak in behalf of any god, how did you come to that conclusion?

And you did not respond to my original questions?

I) And have you ever studied any other religion with the devotion you gave to Christianity? I don’t think your belief prevents you from doing so.
II)Is your statement based upon a credible Islamic religious script? May I ask your reference, I just hope it’s not the Media.

* which are the "one"ess of God, The Prophecy, The Judgment Day

"Would you please also clarify “the stupidity” behind this question? Please first answer my inquiry, and then explain its stupidity." -aitrides
Your question is stupid because you are trying to prove that the only constant is change through an incredibly vague question about the universe. Yes, almost all matter is in motion, so relative position is changing. But the actual matter itself is still there... and so is the energy.

quote "Mohammed is neither the One nor the Messiah."
umm... yes, mohammed is their one... or their greatest prophet. But your right, he wasn't a messiah, and never claimed to be.

I see you've finally learned how to spell Quran... anyways, you are proving your lack of knowledge of the Quran as we speak... have you ever read even a portion of it? Every other word is telling the Muslims to fight those who oppose "Allah." They may not have different versions, but the reason the Bible has so many different translations is because the people who read it seriously are interested in getting the most accurate translation from the original greek.

There is definately discrepency in the Quran. There are blatant contradictions in it which the Muslims have to decieve themselves into ignoring.

The reason an eastern muslim can kill innocent civilians, but a western one knows it is wrong is because of the environment they are in. They are basing their interpretation of their scriptures on their own personal feelings. For how could they base there beliefs on contradiction?

There were alot of things done in the name of Christianity by non-christians. How does this disprove the validity of Christian teaching?

Christianity does not allow its follower to attempt inhuman acts...

I have studied my share of other religions... however... none of them deserves the amount of attention I give to Christianity because the fallibility of all others is too apparent.

My reference is the Quran... thank you very much. Try reading something before making claims about it, be it Muslim or Christian.

Dear Stinkz,

Stinkz wrote:

But the actual matter itself is still there... and so is the energy

What do you mean by "actual matter" ? Does not energy change from one form to another form. What would have been its "actual" form?

stinkz wrote:

umm... yes, mohammed is their one... or their greatest prophet. But your right, he wasn't a messiah, and never claimed to be.

At least we agree on this point

stinkz wrote:

I see you've finally learned how to spell Quran

You have certainly noticed that my current residing location is Iran, there maybe a probability that I’m Iranian, hence I could read and write Arabic font, which means I could write and read the word "Quran" as it is written in the original format.
Funny....... How you accuse people...I knew how to spell Quran in its written font when I was 6 years old.

stinkz wrote:

There is definately discrepency in the Quran. There are blatant contradictions in it which the Muslims have to decieve themselves into ignoring.

Any example with a reference please.

stinkz wrote:

The reason an eastern muslim can kill innocent civilians, but a western one knows it is wrong is because of the environment they are in. They are basing their interpretation of their scriptures on their own personal feelings. For how could they base there beliefs on contradiction?

No comment

stinkz wrote:

I have studied my share of other religions

Which did not include Islam, and I`ve asked you specifically "with devotion"?

stinkz wrote:

My reference is the Quran... thank you very much. Try reading something before making claims about it, be it Muslim or Christian.

Point out my claims!
Please show me the verse or verses which you are reffering to in Quran.
After:

stinkz wrote:

They may not have different versions

Before

stinkz wrote:

There have been many changes in its text

No comment

Dear stinkz,

I am not trying to undermine your belief or revert you from it. I am also not trying to dispute over Islam or Christianity or any other religion.
I had not seen many Christians like you, and I am interested in studying your belief.

It seems to me that you are constantly trying to accuse otheres, including me, without bringing forth any evidence.

And please don’t forget to hint to the verse or verses which you are referring to in Quran that could be considered discrepant. Just write down the number of the verse and the discrepency.

Regards,

Atreides.