»Neo: 100% Human, 100% Machine«

I have not read the Bible or Quran.

In my opinion I do not need to.

Discussion/debate (and much worse) regarding some of the principles you have been chatting about above have been going on and on for thousands of years.

There is no need for religous "establishments". That is just "slap in the face" logic.

We don't have to name ourselves "human" then invent some concepts beyond humanity to explain why. That will come. Lets call ourselves human then decide together "what are humans going to do with this fantastic opportunity of being the most intelligent forms of life that we have seen so far?"

Sure, the first questions may ask:

"lets work out who made us, why they made us?" Its a great question!But I consider it a bit arrogant to assume we are (already) intelligent enough to formulate the answers. We only have a limited experience of experience in being a species which can begin to ask these questions, to answer them is very different.

I am not saying that we shouldnt ask it!

My logic would suggest that the likely first question should be followed by another:

"well thats an interesting question! sure - it would be great to work out the answer straight away but its gonna take some time though becasue its quite difficult - lets check this universe thing out a bit while we are trying to work it out - its great here isn't it!"

The human race cannot move togehter in a positive direction until we accept that we are on journey and we may have a very long way to go.

I have a strong faith - a faith in the human race (even though its tough in our "modern" world!)

We can move forwards both as individuals and as a society, for me one of the main concpepts of the matrix trilogy is analogous to this journey.

I expect some will insist that I cannot understand the potential for the human race until I read religous texts. If this were the case I would write my own book.

BUT! I would not try and preach my book to others, insisting this should be everybody's "definition"! AND I would be very carefull about where I kept this book, I would not want it to get lost and then our future desendents basing too much on the content in 2000 years time, they will be perfectly capable of writing their own books.

Not being a bible scholar, I was under the assumption that the original traslations were from Macedonia. My apologies. I do find it strange that they are translated from Greek considering the location of most of the events and the fact that most of the events took place in Egypt.

I was referring to the New Testement when I mentioned the telephone game and the old when it comes to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

But, it is strange, I believe more of the New than the Old. I look upon the old testament as one would look upon mythology. I think they are really intricate Aesop Fables.

At the end of the day, I think the Bible is a really good storybook. It has some valuable lessons to be learned, and that is the important part to me. If I can gleem some usefulness from a text that is thousands of years old, written by primitive people... then great.

If this biblical god doesn't accept me because I don't I believe that some guy died "for my sins".... then I don't want to be part of his game anyhow. If this god accepts me for what I am, regardless of my choices, then I choose to be a part of the game.

But, in the end, this started about a post on Neo being Jesus... and he was similar, but he also has similarities to all prophets with power. I tend to look at him more as someone who has come to enlightenment and sees the world for what it truly is.... AN ILLUSION.

Sir Reef.

The strange thimg about this discussion is that many seems so negative to religion, but positive to our existence, even if it is not backed by a purpose.

Even if I try, I can not see what is so great about existing. Why do people think that they are lucky to be alive? Do they get this feeling when they are on a bus? "Woohoo! I am on a bus!!!! It shines!!! It's great to be on a bus!!"

Or do people actually have a feeling I don't have? Can someone PLEASE tell me how people can walk around being happy because they exist if they don't believe in anything? If there is no purpose, I would say existence is similar to a prison where you don't get to know why you are sent there.

I think enlightenment is just a word made by people who have spent most of their time thinking about existence, etc., and are too embarassed to admit they never could conclude with anything relevant to themselves or other people.

HolEavatar... I'm sorry that I take the time to address all parts of a persons reply. I guess I should be more like everyone else and just make some blanket claims and not back up anything. That would make for enjoyable reading huh?

deimkai... despite your claim of strong faith.... it does not take strength to have faith in ones self.
Once again... someone showing their clearly relativistic thought. Nothing exists outside of me, therefore I am god and everything I do is right and good. No one truly believes this, and those who claim to are decieving others and themselves at the same time.

SirReef, though you think there could be a god outside of yourself, you still use this same thought process. If there is a God, he will accept me for who I am because I am truly "good."

I acknowledge that I am not good. The good I know to do, I don't do... and that which I know not to do, I do. Once you realize that you are not god and that you do wrong, only then can your eyes be opened.

emp wrote:

Even if I try, I can not see what is so great about existing. Why do people think that they are lucky to be alive? Do they get this feeling when they are on a bus? "Woohoo! I am on a bus!!!! It shines!!! It's great to be on a bus!!"

As a child, you did. You thought everything was wonderful. You could be obsessed with looking at an ant on a stick. To be young, eh?

As much as I am not a fan of the Bible as a religious base, it does hold truths and it mentions that in order to know god, one must become like a child again. (paraphrased, I think it actually says they must crawl into the womb or something, but this is what I get from it)

emp wrote:

I think enlightenment is just a word made by people who have spent most of their time thinking about existence, etc., and are too embarassed to admit they never could conclude with anything relevant to themselves or other people.

I completely disagree with that statement and here is why.

My belief is that we let god know what god is. See, I believe that god is everything and there is nothing that is not god. But, in order for god to know what god is, it needs to experience. We are those experiences.

Our slow-spirtitual progression, or enlightenment, allow god to experience knowing itself. To become completely enlightened, one understands and knows god. To them, the world would seem like the matrix. They would see the designs and see a person for what they are.

For me, it is hard to describe a lot of philisophical thought in written language. The thoughts are there, I just can't type them out.

Sir Reef.

A book that describes my thoughts better than I do is "Conversations With God". Although I think one must take it with a grain of salt, I think it really does explain things in a manner that can be understood. You might find something that catches your eye... and you might not. It might be worth a shot (and it doesn't read like the bible, it reads like an interview and god is pretty funny).

stinkz wrote:

Nothing exists outside of me, therefore I am god and everything I do is right and good. No one truly believes this, and those who claim to are decieving others and themselves at the same time.

Why is it any more deceiving than something that was scripted thousands of years ago?
You may be able to claim strength of belief by sheer number of christians, but if we listened to the vast majority the world would still be flat.

stinkz wrote:

SirReef, though you think there could be a god outside of yourself, you still use this same thought process. If there is a God, he will accept me for who I am because I am truly "good."

I do not believe there is a god outside of me. I believe that god is. To paraphrase the Taoists: "To describe god, would be to not describe god." Thus, the best I can say is that there is nothing that exists or does not exist that is not god. Therefore, I am god.

Even you have made the mistake of saying god is infinite. I just understand the concept of infinite.

stinkz wrote:

I acknowledge that I am not good. The good I know to do, I don't do... and that which I know not to do, I do. Once you realize that you are not god and that you do wrong, only then can your eyes be opened.

How can there be wrong? To incorporate wrong into a system, one has to be subjectable to fallability. Thus, god must be fallible in your eyes. God must have the ability to make mistakes, if not, there is no way upon which the human can make mistakes.

But, in my eyes, it isn't a question of wrong or right... there is no wrong and right. On a spiritual level, and a universal level, no choice we make truly hampers the design. One cannot disrupt the spiritual "wheel" of progression, if you will. Thus, the design is perfect and there is no fallibility.

This is some pretty "heady" stuff and I am not sure I explain it well. A lot of what I say is mathematical in explanation. I hope it suffices.

Sir Reef.

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deimkai... despite your claim of strong faith.... it does not take strength to have faith in ones self. Once again... someone showing their clearly relativistic thought. Nothing exists outside of me, therefore I am god and everything I do is right and good. No one truly believes this, and those who claim to are decieving others and themselves at the same time.

Thanks stinkz!:

I really don't understand why you think I am saying "nothing exists outside of me" - I don't and I didnt say anyting like it.

And I didnt say "I am god and everthing I do is right and good" - (and I agree with you here - that would be a daft statment)

if you want to refer to me or something I have written the please give me the respect to read it even if it is something you don't agree with.

Deimkai wrote:

And I didnt say "I am god and everthing I do is right and good" - (and I agree with you here - that would be a daft statment)

Why is it a daft statement to realize your potential? Why do people have such a hard time accepting that they are a higher power?

Sir Reef.

@SirReef:

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My belief is that we let god know what god is. See, I believe that god is everything and there is nothing that is not god. But, in order for god to know what god is, it needs to experience. We are those experiences. Our slow-spirtitual progression, or enlightenment, allow god to experience knowing itself. To become completely enlightened, one understands and knows god. To them, the world would seem like the matrix. They would see the designs and see a person for what they are. For me, it is hard to describe a lot of philisophical thought in written language. The thoughts are there, I just can't type them out.

You base your belief that purpose is connected to being able to find it. So if I conclude that god does not exist, god have actually concluded that he doesn't exist? If everybody one day agree on this, would god be really sure he didn't exist?

Well, I don't see why we (god) would keep the purpose (created by god) hidden from us (god).

And let us say I one day understood it all. I helped myself (god) into understanding myself (god), and what would I gain? Would I be happy? Or sad, because there was nothing more to discover? Or would I erase my memory and start over again just to have a purpose?

I hope you see that enlightenment is no different from religion. It doesn't get us anywhere. Because nothing is more correct than anything else.

Maybe it is only when people finally stop thinking that we will know the real truth. Then god (or who/what ever) would have no interest in keeping us trapped like an insect in a jar.

"Awww.. The insect stopped moving..." - "Awww.. The humans stopped thinking..."

emp wrote:

You base your belief that purpose is connected to being able to find it. So if I conclude that god does not exist, god have actually concluded that he doesn't exist? If everybody one day agree on this, would god be really sure he didn't exist?

The purpose in existence is to exist. Yes. If you have concluded in this reality that god does not exist, then you will experience a life where god does not exist in your reality. This might be why you don't find joy on the bus, and it might not be the reason.

In my understanding of the universe, eventually you will progress to a point that you will desire and yearn for more than just existing. The yearning will by to experience enlightenment, or become god again. Doing that must be the ultimate experience one can have. All fear and restraints would be completely removed... just peace.

I guess if everyone concluded god did not exist then it would be so in reality, although I believe that this is an impossibility as I am sure there is life outside of our world and dimension that are a lot more spiritually evolved than we are.

emp wrote:

Well, I don't see why we (god) would keep the purpose (created by god) hidden from us (god).

The reason is easy to see, actually. If you knew who you were, you wouldn't strive to become it, would you? Thus the experience, the journey, would be moot.

It is irrelavant whether or not one believes in god. This isn't the only journey you are likely to take. I think the journey must be the greatest ride our sould can take.

But, in my belief, rest assured... when you die here ... this person who you "think" you are dies too. Your soul is everyone, and everyone is your soul. Thus the biblical phrase do unto others as you would have done unto you. If you slap your neighbor, you are indeed slapping yourself.

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And let us say I one day understood it all. I helped myself (god) into understanding myself (god), and what would I gain? Would I be happy? Or sad, because there was nothing more to discover? Or would I erase my memory and start over again just to have a purpose?

I think when the journey is over - and I speak linearly, because it is my reference point, but there is no time, thus there is not real journey (ask me more about that one if you want.... it is a whole other post)- one can choose to be part of everything again. Just be. The freedom. Or one can choose to live again.

Since there is no time, maybe you want to try to relive this life with a different understanding. You chose the existence that is best for you at that time.

I don't think there is a prize or gain at the end. I think our soul doesn't work on the levels of human consciousness. Personally, I would think the soul feels constrained while you are awake and living this life.

emp wrote:

I hope you see that enlightenment is no different from religion. It doesn't get us anywhere. Because nothing is more correct than anything else.

The difference lies in control. One is in control of their personal enlightenment. Every moment they chose who and what they are going to be. In religion, it is laid out for you. You are told who you are, what you are and what you are to do.

Enlightenment is personal and internal. Religion is external. (while one can turn religion personal, it is truly through enlightenment that they internalize the truths within their religion)

emp wrote:

Maybe it is only when people finally stop thinking that we will know the real truth. Then god (or who/what ever) would have no interest in keeping us trapped like an insect in a jar.

I don't think there really is a "real" truth. And I agree that we are trapped in a jar, so to speak. But it is mainly due to our choosing to be trapped.

I don't claim to be correct or know the answers. These are just the truths that made sense to me as I experienced life. Then I read religious texts and found that a lot of my belief was supported. So, I realized that - to me - religion is a picture book for those that can't read yet. One day they will be able to read and they will not need the pictures anymore... but it doesn't mean that the picture book is bad or incorrect.

Sir Reef.

diemkai... I did read it... thank you.

emp wrote:

I hope you see that enlightenment is no different from religion. It doesn't get us anywhere. Because nothing is more correct than anything else.

Is that correct?

I must say I am glad to be a part of a forum with so many great users.

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The purpose in existence is to exist. Yes. If you have concluded in this reality that god does not exist, then you will experience a life where god does not exist in your reality. This might be why you don't find joy on the bus, and it might not be the reason.

It is the exact reason why I don't like the bus. I have concluded that the only god that exist, will only exist in my mind. Maybe I decide that god is a entity that wants me not to think? Then my god and your god is the complete opposites. And one of us must be wrong. To continue using the metaphor, I did like to ride the bus in the beginning. It was only when I began to see that a busride is just a busride, and asking myself what was so great about riding a bus without even having choosen to ride it. I started to see the problem. I wanted to know why. The rest of the problems with riding a bus can be found in Weid Al's "Another one rides the bus".

I completely understand that I can create a fake reality where I believe in something. But how trick myself into believing that I am more correct than anyone else? If I'm not sure I am correct, why do I believe in the thing I believe? Why not believe in something alot of people believe in? Does it really matter as long as you get from birth to death without feeling bad more than 50% of the time?

And when we die, the electrical and chemical signals in your brain stop after some minutes. Theese signals have been proven to be what makes us think and be self aware. (Just try electroshock or a powerdrill through you skull. That will prove it). So hopefully we just die. Why is every belief so caught up in keeping us around after we die? I need a break!

stinkz wrote:

diemkai... I did read it... thank you. emp wrote: I hope you see that enlightenment is no different from religion. It doesn't get us anywhere. Because nothing is more correct than anything else. Is that correct?

It is just as correct as anything else. How can anyone claim to have an answer to a riddle that nobody has learned the answer to? There might not even be an answer.

Yes, just one of thousands of religions might be correct, but that would probably imply the largest religion being true, since the most people believe in it, and that would exclude you, wouldn't it?

emp wrote:

It is the exact reason why I don't like the bus. I have concluded that the only god that exist, will only exist in my mind.

Thus you are already living a life you consider shallow. Search for truth and you will find your own. It is obvious that you don't find comfort in your current belief, so why not search for truth.

Your truth may differ from mine, and that is good. It may not, and that is good too. Spirituality is individualistic.

emp wrote:

Maybe I decide that god is a entity that wants me not to think? Then my god and your god is the complete opposites. And one of us must be wrong.

No, neither of us would be wrong. If to you god is a vicious god, who enjoys power and control - then this is the god in your reality.

Let me break it down in very simple terms. We have established that when we die our electric impulses stop. We also know that the base of all matter is energy moving at certain speeds. Thus, if we break things down, EVERYTHING is made of the same stuff -- even thought and emotion.

Okay, so now that we can at least pretend this is true... we can say that energy must be the common property in all... and thus is god.

If the difference between objects and ideas and concepts and dreams is the formation of energy and how it is utilized then that means everything is everything else. Thus, if you are the energy and you "know" this... then it would stand to reason that each person has the ability to create and manifest things within their individual realities.

Therefore, god can grant you anything you truly desire and need. Want and need are definately relative terms... in that YOU may want a PS2... but it is not what your spirit truly wants. Remember, you are not you... you are spirit, in my belief.

Therefore, if you really desire that god manifest himself to you as a controlling dictator -- you will have this experience.

You are your own creator.

[/quote]To continue using the metaphor, I did like to ride the bus in the beginning. It was only when I began to see that a busride is just a busride, and asking myself what was so great about riding a bus without even having choosen to ride it. I started to see the problem. I wanted to know why. The rest of the problems with riding a bus can be found in Weid Al's "Another one rides the bus".
[/quote]

As the PERSON you may not have chosen to partake in the experience, but on another level you have. Just as on another level you have agreed to experience the things you experience.

What was so great about the bus? Nothing. It is the same now as when you were a child... but when you were a child, your mind was not hampered with human trappings. You were closer to the spirit form of your true self. Eventually, in my belief, we come back to this form and we progress.

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I completely understand that I can create a fake reality where I believe in something. But how trick myself into believing that I am more correct than anyone else?

If you can grasp what I am saying then it doesn't have to be. It has to be correct for you at this stage in your spiritual evolution. If seeing that there is no god is correct for you at this point in your progression ... then so be it. You may even create a reality after your life wherein you don't do anything except exist. Eventually this too will pass, as all things do.

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Why not believe in something alot of people believe in? Does it really matter as long as you get from birth to death without feeling bad more than 50% of the time?

There is nothing wrong with believing mass thought. In fact, I would wager that most humans, at this point in our spiritual evolution, need it. We are afraid to ask the questions and fear the unknown. That is okay. I am afraid of it too. I can't begin to say that I understand and am enlightened. If I was, I am sure I would handle this conversation completely different.

As for getting through life 50% happy... if that is what it is for you to live at this point... then so be it. There is nothing wasted about your experience, because you are learning what is and is not. Obviously the issue bears on you and you would like to believe in something. You just cannot.

I believe that truth comes when you are ready for it. It comes when you look for it, but not the the same extent as when you are ready.

Sir Reef.

PS - Sorry for being so long-winded.

And when we die, the electrical and chemical signals in your brain stop after some minutes. Theese signals have been proven to be what makes us think and be self aware. (Just try electroshock or a powerdrill through you skull. That will prove it). So hopefully we just die. Why is every belief so caught up in keeping us around after we die? I need a break![/quote]

Emp... you do claim to have the answer to lifes riddle. You said we have no purpose. That is a claim. Then you go on to say that nothing is more correct than anything else. How can that statement be correct then? It is a self-contradiction, just like "nothing is an absolute."

@SirReef:

So your suggestion is to just hang around and be happy while I wait for an explenation to appear. This is the standard 'Don't worry, be happy' reply, and makes me think that my way of thinking is deeper than yours, since I don't want anyone to stop looking in any direction. Maybe you happiness is the drug made to us from investigating true purpose. Maybe Neo would still be in the matrix if they kept him happy with ordinary stuff that is supposed to make people happy today.

Is it more important to be happy than to search?

You seem to be equally obsessed as others with the theory of the mind surviving even if the matter it exists in doesn't. It is the cells in the brain that contain the electricity and chemicals, and the way they move within these cells, that makes us think. If a part of our brain is damaged or removed while we live, will this have an effect on you mind after you die? Or is there some kind of universal database that contain a correct replica of you, so you can enjoy afterlife in the best way?

Any theories believing that the mind continues to exist after death base their belief in something supernatural. Believing in that is an escape in my opinion, as the real truth of just dying is so obvious, but sad, to many if we try to understand. We are just here. We just die.

But maybe the truth is that you have got it all wrong and if I search further I find something you have not. Something that gives me an afterlife, but is not possible for every human to find.

stinkz wrote:

Emp... you do claim to have the answer to lifes riddle. You said we have no purpose. That is a claim. Then you go on to say that nothing is more correct than anything else. How can that statement be correct then? It is a self-contradiction, just like "nothing is an absolute."

I know that I have been unclear in my statements about purpose. The bottom line is that I hope there is one, but looking for it makes be feel alone, because the facts and my feelings tell me that it is obvious that we just die. Everything else involves a higher being in some way. I don't see the difference in the different beings. They all represent some kind of thought by man. There is nothing proving that your religion is better.

So by obtaining the feeling of believing in something I will get the feeling of happiness. I understand that. But can I be happy while not believing, because that there is no real point to my existence? Is there some way to trigger the happiness feeling in the brain without belief?

EMP, you little agnostic, you.

emp wrote:

You seem to be equally obsessed as others with the theory of the mind surviving even if the matter it exists in doesn't. It is the cells in the brain that contain the electricity and chemicals, and the way they move within these cells, that makes us think. If a part of our brain is damaged or removed while we live, will this have an effect on you mind after you die? Or is there some kind of universal database that contain a correct replica of you, so you can enjoy afterlife in the best way?

Actually, I believe quite the opposite of the mind existing after you have died. You are obsessed with individuality. Quit thinking in that way and you might be better off when trying to understand where I am coming from.

All your experiences have already happened. They are part of the universal consciousness, also referred to as god. Nothing is that is not god. You are chosing to experience what you are experiencing. When you die... let's call you Bill... Bill will die. Bill will cease to be the container for your soul. Your soul will remember Bill, because it remembers and knows everything - because it is god and god is everything.

But when your soul decides to focus on the next experience, it will chose what memory it takes with it. Thus, our inability to remember our past lives in this life.

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So your suggestion is to just hang around and be happy while I wait for an explenation to appear. This is the standard 'Don't worry, be happy' reply, and makes me think that my way of thinking is deeper than yours, since I don't want anyone to stop looking in any direction. Maybe you happiness is the drug made to us from investigating true purpose. Maybe Neo would still be in the matrix if they kept him happy with ordinary stuff that is supposed to make people happy today.

Correct. If you are not ready to be the one, then you cannot be the one. You spiritual development will only progress to a point that you are ready to handle.

Remember the Oracle saying "you have the gift... you just aren't ready". That goes for all of us. We all have the gift, but we are waiting for something.

Since time is really NOT of the essence, it may take more lifetimes than we can count to truly understand our purpose. I could be dead wrong, I could be right on.

My beliefs do not STOP someone from seeking out truth... in fact it encourages it. But, you can only understand what you are capable of understanding. A five year old is not capable of grasping Electrical Engineering because their physical mind is still absorbing the correct data. Think of your spiritual development in the same manner. We may only be a 2 years old in spiritual development, so to try to understand it all would be an attempt at futility.

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Is it more important to be happy than to search?

For me, no. I find that life is unfulfilling unless I add to the knowledge and experience I have already obtained. When I distance myself from my spiritual framework, I feel empty and that I am missing a great part of me. When I try to add to it, learn and allow my beliefs to mutate is when I feel the most alive.

I would love for someone to bring something new to my experience. Something I have not examined...

But, for others it may be just right to enjoy life and not think about spirituality. They are at that point in development.

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Any theories believing that the mind continues to exist after death base their belief in something supernatural. Believing in that is an escape in my opinion, as the real truth of just dying is so obvious, but sad, to many if we try to understand. We are just here. We just die.

Possibly. It is all possible. But I ask you this... are you living and making choices right now... or are you just remembering a lifetime? How are you so certain that you are really in control instead of reliving it in your soul's eye?

Remember, NOW cannot be described in physics. It is impossible to describe the current moment... only the past and future can truly be described and examined.

Thus, everything you are experiencing has already come to pass. You are, in effect, remembering it. If you were to cease to exist, you couldn't be thinking about what you are currently doing... because there would be nothing and no one to remember.

Basically, it is a very complex thought that is virtually indescribable.

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But maybe the truth is that you have got it all wrong and if I search further I find something you have not. Something that gives me an afterlife, but is not possible for every human to find.

It is very possible, and highly likely that I am completely off-base and that your truths will most certainly be different than mine. This is why enlightenment and spirituality are internal and individual.

Search if you feel the need to search. In fact, the yearning to search is probably a sign that you should. More than likely this conversation is a manifestation of this desire. Pick up a couple books like "Tao of Pooh", "Tao of Physics" and "Conversations With God". They are all VERY different and may start the mechanics of your progression. You can find the one that most gels with your current mindset.

Sir Reef.

emp... wouldn't it be interesting if the only way to be truly happy WAS through belief? Thus, God's only requirement becomes the one thing that makes one truly happy.

[quote="emp]
I know that I have been unclear in my statements about purpose. The bottom line is that I hope there is one, but looking for it makes be feel alone, because the facts and my feelings tell me that it is obvious that we just die. Everything else involves a higher being in some way. I don't see the difference in the different beings. They all represent some kind of thought by man. There is nothing proving that your religion is better.[/quote]

One is not necessarily better or worse, one is correct or incorrect for an individual. I found most religion to be constraining and unchanging. They all felt dead... and yes... I also find myself uncomfortable with the thought of a "higher being". I don't believe in a "god" in the physical sense.

My belief doesn't have a god that cares or does not care. It just is. It is a force. It is like the ocean. It isn't hard or soft. It is amorphous. To begin to describe it would be to not describe it.

While belief does require thought by man, so does the belief in death. Death and birth are human concepts, my friend. We understand things with a beginning and an end, because that is our experience. Death is an illusion. That was what Jesus the Christ was trying to prove.

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But can I be happy while not believing, because that there is no real point to my existence? Is there some way to trigger the happiness feeling in the brain without belief?

I am sure you can find happiness without believing. The real question is: is the joy more pure and unbridled or less? Can the belief exponentially increase your happiness?

I can't answer that. It is up to an individual to answer that for themselves.

Sir Reef.

stinkz wrote:

emp... wouldn't it be interesting if the only way to be truly happy WAS through belief? Thus, God's only requirement becomes the one thing that makes one truly happy.

Interesting thought. While I don't personally believe in requirements set forth from god... it does provoke thought.

Bravo.

I find it very hard to describe some of the concepts I discuss with myself difficult in words. Perhaps that is why religion has been so successful - becuase the relogious texts act as metaphors which very acuratly recreate the feelings/concepts/emotions which cannot easliy be described (no offence intended for those who don't consider religous texts storys or metaphors).

Sir reef;

I enjoy reading what you have written above - your words often reflect the concepts I favour, I enjoy reading you ideas as they however, can you clear something up for me:

You seem to be frustrated when individuals don't accept they are a higher power. I think you talk about two concepts of enlightenment which I consider distinctly seperate - development and evolution.

Am I correct in the following:

When you talk of development are you are talking of a change in perception of perhaps emotional appreciation of ones surrounding throughout the course of an individuals life (ie between life and death)?

When you talk of evolution in an emotional sense this is greater than any consideration on an individual level - this is emotional evolution of a species - eg the human race.

I see it this way. If this is the case then we need to recognise our "enlightenment status" on an individual level and on an species level (like and average if you will).

The time scales are clearly quite different here. Do you agree with this at all?

As arrogant as it may sound I think the steps toward an "enlightment" are steps with positive progress - toward the good itself - perhaps some would describe this as god.

Therefore your frustration at people not fully accepting they are a higher power may just be a bit premature - we must regonise the collective as well as the individual - we are all on a journey together - at different stages - I do not consider everyting I do to be good but that doesnt get me down - we are not "frozen" like this.

(PS: how do you guys use the QUOTE function in your posts - I cant make it work!)
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(i just read my post above - appologies for the grammar mistakes - rushed it!)

So the idea of purpose and being happy to be alive have been questioned with the "whats so good about riding on a bus" idea:

I agree most of my experiences of riding on a bus have been pretty forgettable. But I think you have to think it through a bit further.

An obvious example is riding on bus "alone" to get to work. In my opinion this can easily be descibed as unfulfilling. But of course it is! We currently structure our society in a way where we often isolate ourselves from those around us ("alone" on a bus of 50 people) and take up an enormous fraction of our lives menial unfulfulling - purposeless things. Spending half and hour on a bus to get to work to do a job we know has no "real" purpose (in fact I describe many jobs in our system as actually harmfull to other members of the human race but thats a debate for elsewhere).

If we are not going to work then we may be going "shopping" to buy some items to wear the next time we go on a bus. Its easy to invent many situation where we can question the notion of riding a bus in the "modern" world.

But consider the flip side - riding a bus where the outcome/purpose is positive AND while on the bus not being alone but communicating with the others on that bus.

two random examples of positive bus riding:

- Present day: a bus full of engineers riding a bus to a help a village which has no clean water supply - with knowlege and celebrating how they will change these peoples lives forever.

- 7 billion years in the future: a bus (spacecraft) full of young "human beings" travelling position in space to witness the aftermath of the collision between the milky way galaxy and our current neighbour "andromeda". All the kids discussing/learning how this was the location where the human race originated.

Forgive me for the fictional projection here but its the idea I'm trying to get across not the literal interpretation of a future history class.

Now I'm not saying our purpose is just to "be" - but on the way to (perhaps) finding out more lets realise that where we are today is a snapshot and "riding a bus" does't have to be like it has become.

There is only one thing I hate more than riding a bus - and thats standing in line and waiting to get on that bus.

Diemkai,

Diemkai wrote:

I enjoy reading you ideas as they however, can you clear something up for me:

Thank you for the kind remarks. I can try my best to clear things up, but I might need you to clear things up for me first - so that I am answering the correct question.

Let us start with the easiest concept first:

Quote:

(PS: how do you guys use the QUOTE function in your posts - I cant make it work!)

You can either press the "quote" botton on the top of a reply, type the psuodo-HTML code into your post in the form:
[*quote="NAMEOFINDIVIDUAL"]textyouwanttotype[/*quote]
* - ignore the stars, I did not want to quote while describing the function.
I cannot seem to get ATL-Q to work, nor pressing the Quote button above my post.

Now onto the harder stuff, eh?

diemkai wrote:

I find it very hard to describe some of the concepts I discuss with myself difficult in words. Perhaps that is why religion has been so successful - becuase the relogious texts act as metaphors which very acuratly recreate the feelings/concepts/emotions which cannot easliy be described (no offence intended for those who don't consider religous texts storys or metaphors).

Correct. That is why I refer to most religious texts as "picture books" for children. It isn't an insult, but when one comes to truth and enlightenment, I believe it will come from internal sources.

In my belief, there is nothing wrong with religious scripture. Especially if one understands that anything anyone else says is true for them and might be a guide for you. When one decides to take an idea and form an unchanging, traditionalist cult around it -- it chips away at the individuality of the message. Religious scripture should be taken on an individual level, absorbed and recreated in one's mind. Almost everything holds truth, the question is how you go about obtaining it.

Since truth is personal, then having someone else interpret or think through it all for you defeats the purpose. It is the equivalent of asking someone to study for your Calculus Midterm for you, and then walking into the exam. Sure, they understand the math... but now you don't. They can teach you the math, explain it to you, but it is up to you to internalize the truth and understand and demonstrate for yourself.

I hope that helps.

Quote:

You seem to be frustrated when individuals don't accept they are a higher power. I think you talk about two concepts of enlightenment which I consider distinctly seperate - development and evolution.

I do grow frustrated because I feel that not believing that you are a higher power is self-defeating. One cannot fully reach their potential if they fight what they are or assume they are less than they can be. So, it is integral to me. Although, it may not be as integral to others.

Some may need god to be an external force that is greater than they are, it makes them feel secure to know that someone is guiding them - rather than everything being created by themselves for themselves.

To me, it only makes sense if god is all there is. To me, the question isn't what is god... it is how can anything exist that is not god? Or worse yet... how can anything that does not exist not be god?

Yes, I do talk about two separate things in development and enlightenment. But, they are intrinsically the same thing. There is also the "mass consciousness", which is god in its most pure form. I will try to detail it in my further replies.

Quote:

When you talk of development are you are talking of a change in perception of perhaps emotional appreciation of ones surrounding throughout the course of an individuals life (ie between life and death)?

Partly. Throughout life one may progress or regress or stagnate in spiritual development. None of which is particularly bad, as they all are experiences of god. One just furthers our journey towards our ultimate goal to experience god in all that it is.

I definately am referring to a change in perception, but not necessarily through emotion. See, I think emotion is a human understanding. When one truly progresses, the only emotion one can experience is peace... or joy. The understanding of the intricacies of life and the ability to understand the "game" we play must be relaxing. There could be no sadness when someone dies, because you understand that they have chosen to move onwards. They haven't gone anywhere... There could be no anger if someone steals your car... they must have a need... let them take it... you'll get another. "Turn the other cheek" if you will.

So, maybe I stated it incorrectly... yes, I believe there is a change in the emotional appreciation of the surroundings, one can see the true design of the system and this brings peace and tranquility. You can see the "ultimate good" in the "ultimate bad". Remember, even in the bible god said that he can only bring about goodness.

Did I answer the question you had or did I just run around in circles? I fear it is the latter. Please ask me anything.

Quote:

When you talk of evolution in an emotional sense this is greater than any consideration on an individual level - this is emotional evolution of a species - eg the human race. I see it this way. If this is the case then we need to recognise our "enlightenment status" on an individual level and on an species level (like and average if you will).

Yes, there is something called "mass consciousness". There are many levels of this, the utmost being complete understand of all there is and all there is not. Then there is "localized mass consciousness". For a quick overview on this, look up studies on the "100th Monkey". It was a true study that had very amazing discoveries.

It is hard for one to truly become enlightened in a society that holds disdain for that sort of pursuit. Thus, I do talk about society's evolution as well. I think we will, as a culture, eventually come to an understanding. A spiritual upheavel. Just as Siddartha (Buddha) became inundated with materialistic things... he grew to want more. The same, I hope, will hold for society. We can only stoop so low and become so materialistic that we finally want for more. Then it becomes a mass movement.

Again, I am not sure I am stabbing into what you are asking, please let me know. This stuff is very hard to describe, and I worry that I am misreading your questions.

Quote:

The time scales are clearly quite different here. Do you agree with this at all?

This question begs me to answer it in two ways:
(1) The time scale for individual evolution vs. societal
(2) The ultimate time line vs what we percieve.

To answer (1) we have to examine (2).

The answer to (2) is that there is no time. It is an illusion. When you die, you may chose to exist as a peasent during the Spanish Inquisition. You may chose to live at a time when mankind has reached spiritual enlightenment. You may also alternatively chose to live in a time when mankind has ultimately destroyed itself.

All possibilities exist, in my belief. How so? Remember this concept: GOD IS. There are an inifinite possible scenarios for an infinite number of outcomes. We chose, as a "mass consciousness" what we will experience. Think of our souls as dealmakers. They sit around and explain what they need and then it is provided for. God will always give you what you need, because you are god and there is no way around this. If you need to experience the second coming of christ, then you will experience this reality. Just remember, it isn't real. Weird stuff.

So to answer part (1), we are already enlightened, we just chose not to experience it. What stops you from living the life of Jesus the Christ? You. You chose not to live like him in every moment. All it takes is the conscious choice to do it. Christians will have you believing this is blasphemy, but I ask you -- why?

But, I also believe that the trend for this "timeline" is slow evolution towards enlightenment... since that is the game. I believe it takes longer because not everyone in our reality choses to evolve, but an individual can become enlightened in an instant.

Quote:

As arrogant as it may sound I think the steps toward an "enlightment" are steps with positive progress - toward the good itself - perhaps some would describe this as god.

Why is this arrogant? The only problem, from my perspective, is that they are not "positive" steps. They are just steps toward our goal. But chosing not to strive for the goal is good too. Those people are providing something that someone playing the game cannot...

Quote:

Therefore your frustration at people not fully accepting they are a higher power may just be a bit premature - we must regonise the collective as well as the individual - we are all on a journey together - at different stages - I do not consider everyting I do to be good but that doesnt get me down - we are not "frozen" like this.

This is a very true statement, in my eyes. I like the way it is phrased and it holds a lot of truth in my mind. We are the "collective individual". Just because at the end of our journey we are all one, it doesn't preclude our individuality. Just as taking that glass of salt water from the ocean. Each of those molecules do thier own thing, but it is still part of the ocean when it goes back... even if you track each molecule. Every molecule of this ocean may be going in different directions and are at different stages of excitement.... it doesn't stop it from being ocean.

Certainly everything you do is not "good". But it is not "bad" either. People are right when they say good cannot exist without evil... but the opposite holds true as well... evil cannot exist without good. Niether exist. Everything you do, just is.

We are certainly not frozen.

Sir Reef.

SirReef, I have some questions regarding your beliefs...

If only thinking beings are able to understand god, then god is dependent on the existence of thinking beings to evolve. Maybe we are alone in the universe. So god has been waiting for millions of years just hoping for life on earth to evolve? What if our planet was suddenly hit by an asteroid and existed no more?

But you have already given your answer. God can exist independent of time.

But that would make him able to see the end of time, and what level of enlightenment the universe has reached at that point. There would be no need for me to experience it. He would already know what he needed to know, and wouldn't have to bother me. If he already knows, why torment me with a riddle I have no way of finding the answer to, as my mind is not capable of understanding a world without time. He knows I will never know what he knows, but still get a kick out of watching me search. That sick bastard.