»There is no MWAM. The explanation for Neo's powers is this:«

I'm somewhat appalled that this ridiculous MWAM theory (probably standing for Most Wankerfied Analysis in Memory) is even being discussed.

There was no 'second Matrix'. No 'hidden level'. No Matrix-within-a-Matrix-within-a-Matrix-within-a-Matrix-within-a-Matrix.

To save time, I'll cut and paste an earlier explanation from a different site. I was here back in July, I believe, and I addressed this same issue then.

Why the heck this flame hasn't died out yet I can only attribute to some great plague of stupidity among certain people. It's like inventing a building that was never even there in the first place! Some saying "but, if you look closely enough, that tree sort of resembles a building...hence it must be a building!"

The Wachowskis may have had a lot of intrinsic meanings, but none of them were ever unfounded as this joke of a 'theory' is.

----

It's all very simple.

A little long...but simple.

WHAT'S UP WITH ALL THESE 'WORLDS'?

The Matrix and the Machine Mainframe (a.k.a. the "Machine City", "the Source") run on independent-but-interconnected operating systems. In the movies, those interconnections have taken the form of the Architect's chamber (legitimate) and Mobil Avenue (illegitimate).

The machine mainframe is often referred to as the machine "world". Essentially, this is just a reference to the mainframe.

Here's a wee diagram to clarify:

----

THE MATRIX

/\
|
|
\/

MOBIL AVE / ARCHITECT CHAMBER

/\
|
|
\/

MACHINE MAINFRAME (a.k.a. "THE SOURCE", "MACHINE CITY")

----

Programs created in the machine mainframe that come over into the Matrix (e.g. Seraph, the Oracle) are seen to be glowing within the confines of the Matrix's green code. Of course, programs created in the Matrix are seen with standard green code.


OKAY, BUT HOW THE HELL CAN NEO STOP SQUIDDIES AND ENTER THE MATRIX WITHOUT JACKIN INTO A SHIP BROADCAST SIGNAL?

The question you ask should actually go further. You should be asking: "How can Neo do ANY of the amazing things he can do since the end of the first film?".

Let's first go back to basics.

Pod borns have mechanical augmentaitons made to their entire nervous system. Therefore, they are inherently cyborg. Neo is a cyborg. Like the characters of Ghost In The Shell.

And, again like the characters of Ghost In The Shell, Neo has been fitted with the ability to hook into a wireless network. The machine network. The network that the sentinels patch into when they extend their antenni.

When Neo hooks into this machine network - that is being broadcasted from the machine mainframe / the Source (remember, the Oracle said that Neo "felt...the Source" in Revolutions and that he "touched" it in the ETM footage?) - he is given command over all the facets of the machine world...and everything that the machine world was connected to, including the Matrix. This also means that he can pick up as well as transmit these frequencies, which is why he is able to see the eminating energy of the machine world (an energy that is carried over in the code of programs like Seraph who move from the mainframe into the Matrix).

But why? Why does Neo have access to what should be an encrypted network?

The reason? Because, as the Architect infers, that how he was designed.

The machines needed Neo to manifest powers within the Matrix, but didn't want him to reach his full potential, because then he would obviously become a threat to them.

Therefore, the machines built in a failsafe that kept Neo from using the powers he discovers at the end of Reloaded. And what was that failsafe? Instantaneous death.

"You should be dead", says the Oracle. But Neo's love for Trinity ensured that he was merely caught in the connection point between the machine mainframe / the Source and the Matrix.

So there you have it. Neo, like the hero of one of the Wachowskis' fave fictions Ghost In The Shell, is a cyborg.

How suitable to show the connection of man and machine.

P.S. - I never bought the Matrix-Within-A-Matrix 'theory' even in the Summer of '03. It looked like an EMP that shook Neo's entire body when he served up fried squid in Reloaded, and not the clean stopping of bullets as seen at the end of The Matrix. It's clearly Neo transmitting a focussed electromagnetic wave, and the scripts finally confirmed it beyond all doubt.

So I still don't understand why it's being debated.

But, hey, as long as people are having fun...

Editted for clarity.

Look who is back

th3 p4th wrote:

Look who is back

Like a moth to the flame, good man. Like a moth to the flame.

I agree with you there is No Matrix within a Matrix.

max314 wrote:

WHAT'S UP WITH ALL THESE 'WORLDS'? The Matrix and the Machine Mainframe (a.k.a. the "Machine City", "the Source") run on independent-but-interconnected operating systems. In the movies, those interconnections have taken the form of the Architect's chamber (legitimate) and Mobil Avenue (illegitimate).

The Matrix is Wonderland it is a made up world to fool people it represent the Holy Bible.

The Mobil Station is an Anagram for Limbo (Christ in Limbo)

The Machine world is the Government and the Roman Catholic Church and their Job is to fool people and to make sure that people stay in their pods and NOT wake up.

max314 wrote:

OKAY, BUT HOW THE HELL CAN NEO STOP SQUIDDIES AND ENTER THE MATRIX WITHOUT JACKIN INTO A SHIP BROADCAST SIGNAL? Neo is a cyborg. Like the characters of Ghost In The Shell. And, again like the characters of Ghost In The Shell, Neo has been fitted with the ability to hook into a wireless network. But why? Why does Neo have access to what should be an encrypted network? The reason? Because, as the Architect infers, that how he was designed. [/i]

The Matrix is NOT just a pure SCI-FI film. You forgot an Additional ingredient.

Religion

How can Neo Blow up the squids out of the Matrix and be in the Matrix with out Jacking in?

It is not that Neo has built in Wifi.

Neo is a God
and when you are a God you can do anything

Neo is Not a Cyborg

Nah, it must be firewire!

DaVinci that's just your interpretation just as the OP is Max interpretation.

Maybe these posts are not just their interpretation. And maybe, just maybe...they are not even mutually exclusive interpretations.

Anywho, this promises to be interesting.

intell wrote:

Maybe these posts are not just their interpretation. And maybe, just maybe...they are not even mutually exclusive interpretations.

What do you mean?

Maybe as they discuss where they're coming from, they may see that they both agree on the main points of the film(s).

Ah.. I see.. nice

th3 p4th wrote:

Ah.. I see.. nice

I can't believe it.
In fact ZION and machine city both are virthual world,because NEO says:It was all another system of control.
What is it means?I think it's ZION.

I will post this and will get out of your way.
By the way there is no hard feelings towards anybody here..

Ok..

This may seem silly but it makes sense...

Remember superman?

Well as some of us may know the makers of the matrix used a man with the last name reeves..
So it seems valid that Neo is like a superman character..

But..

Remember how superman only had powers when a yellow sun was present.. This would be the matrix sun as the real world sun was not visable..
Also you could say that the matrix code was like neos kryptonite, It was his weakness until he overcame it...

So as far as I am concerned...
m2 and m3 dont work properly...

Neo used his abilities only where the sun was present. Or in a world where the sun existed...

Keanu Reeves SUPERMAN name says it all..

Seems silly but the matrix relies on exact accounts from other sources. It does not and I say does not branch off into its own thing...

The matrix is this world what makes it and what creates it.
Nothing more..

Dont agree? Well....

You can only be a superman where only it can happen..
A world where only it is possible..

This place is the matrix

hilarious

Alright max314, thanks for bringing this up again. As a matter of fact I have not posted here in a loong time, but I came out of retirement for this one.

I posted what I felt was a pretty air tight theory some time ago, it can be found by looking for "the one theory" around the forums. Let me know if you get a chance to look it over, or I can talk about it here if it comes to that.

You wrote: Therefore, the machines built in a failsafe that kept Neo from using the powers he discovers at the end of Reloaded. And what was that failsafe? Instantaneous death.

"You should be dead", says the Oracle. But Neo's love for Trinity ensured that he was merely caught in the connection point between the machine mainframe / the Source and the Matrix.

This reminds me of the Oracles famous non answer "The power of the one extends from here all the way back to were it came from, the script, oops I mean the source"

You havnt convinced me that there is no MWAM from what you posted here.

If you would just look at all the things that take place in Zion that are completly critical to the way things play out, you cant with a straight face say there isnt something odd going on in Zion.

As a matter of fact I think I will try to list all the things that take place in Zion that would have messed up the path of the one if they didnt play out the way they did.

The biggest one is the fact that NEO has a dream about trinity dying at the beginning of Reloaded, an event that does not take place until the very end of the movie. Every event that takes place after Neos drem leads up to the dream comming true.

How can you know what is going to happen in the future when it is supposed to be based on Zion being free, or in other words events in Zion should be random, but they are not, because everything happens to keep NEO on the path.

I will talk about this further if responses warrant. My "The one theory" postulates that there are only three free thinking individuals present in all three movies, The Oracle, Neo, and the Architect.

The Oracle decided to change the repeating cycle of the Matrix, because the machines were deleting programs without a purpose, because they could not realise that the new programs that didnt have a purpose were the final stage of machines becoming fully human.

Remember that the machines view humans as not having a purpose. The Oracle wanted to black mail the machines into a bargain to stop killing the new programs without a purpose, because she knew they are the key to a future where machines and humans will live in the Matrix together because they want to.

No one has ever escaped the Matrix. The Zion program works for alost everyone, but over time there is always one that will emerge that will reject everything, when this happens a plan of cause and effect is started wich leads the one to the Architect and then forces the one to enter the source, then it all starts all over again, but this time the Oracle changed the path of the one.

Thanks, and I look forward to aruguing, I mean discussing this further.

MrMatrix.

I come from China,please forgive my poor English.I'm the fans of Matrix.I like this forum.

The Councillor Hamann's :I suppose we do, but down here sometimes I think about all those people still plugged into the Matrix and when I look at these machines, I.. I can't help thinking that in a way, we are plugged into them.
These words implies Zion is another Matrix.Fuction of ZION is gathering the persons who have a strong consciousness,because these people are threat for Matrix.If they are not cleaned,the system will brake down.
In another word,ZION just like recycle bin.

MrMatrix wrote:

Alright max314, thanks for bringing this up again. As a matter of fact I have not posted here in a loong time, but I came out of retirement for this one. I posted what I felt was a pretty air tight theory some time ago, it can be found by looking for "the one theory" around the forums. Let me know if you get a chance to look it over, or I can talk about it here if it comes to that. You wrote: Therefore, the machines built in a failsafe that kept Neo from using the powers he discovers at the end of Reloaded. And what was that failsafe? Instantaneous death. "You should be dead", says the Oracle. But Neo's love for Trinity ensured that he was merely caught in the connection point between the machine mainframe / the Source and the Matrix. This reminds me of the Oracles famous non answer "The power of the one extends from here all the way back to were it came from, the script, oops I mean the source" You havnt convinced me that there is no MWAM from what you posted here. If you would just look at all the things that take place in Zion that are completly critical to the way things play out, you cant with a straight face say there isnt something odd going on in Zion. As a matter of fact I think I will try to list all the things that take place in Zion that would have messed up the path of the one if they didnt play out the way they did. The biggest one is the fact that NEO has a dream about trinity dying at the beginning of Reloaded, an event that does not take place until the very end of the movie. Every event that takes place after Neos drem leads up to the dream comming true. How can you know what is going to happen in the future when it is supposed to be based on Zion being free, or in other words events in Zion should be random, but they are not, because everything happens to keep NEO on the path. I will talk about this further if responses warrant. My "The one theory" postulates that there are only three free thinking individuals present in all three movies, The Oracle, Neo, and the Architect. The Oracle decided to change the repeating cycle of the Matrix, because the machines were deleting programs without a purpose, because they could not realise that the new programs that didnt have a purpose were the final stage of machines becoming fully human. Remember that the machines view humans as not having a purpose. The Oracle wanted to black mail the machines into a bargain to stop killing the new programs without a purpose, because she knew they are the key to a future where machines and humans will live in the Matrix together because they want to. No one has ever escaped the Matrix. The Zion program works for alost everyone, but over time there is always one that will emerge that will reject everything, when this happens a plan of cause and effect is started wich leads the one to the Architect and then forces the one to enter the source, then it all starts all over again, but this time the Oracle changed the path of the one. Thanks, and I look forward to aruguing, I mean discussing this further. MrMatrix.

I agree with you very much!ZION puzzles everyone.
Neo is not a super man in real world and Matrix is not a ghost movie.The only explanation is that Zion is another Matrix,isn't it?

Thomas wrote:

I come from China,please forgive my poor English.I'm the fans of Matrix.I like this forum.

Welcome, Thomas!

Thomas wrote:

The Councillor Hamann's :I suppose we do, but down here sometimes I think about all those people still plugged into the Matrix and when I look at these machines, I.. I can't help thinking that in a way, we are plugged into them. These words implies Zion is another Matrix.

Not necessarily!
I'd rather understand it in the line of what the Oracle laters says:

I'm interested in one thing, Neo, the future. And believe me, I know, the only way to get there is together.

Thomas wrote:

Fuction of ZION is gathering the persons who have a strong consciousness,because these people are threat for Matrix.If they are not cleaned,the system will brake down. In another word,ZION just like recycle bin.

To the architect and his system, Zion may be a recycle bin. And I agree that - in the current situation - it is another level of control.
-> Another level! No longer a non-material virtual world, but make-believe (as in "Zion is freedom") on a material level.

However...

MrMatrix wrote:

My "The one theory" postulates that there are only three free thinking individuals present in all three movies, The Oracle, Neo, and the Architect.

Thus did man become the... Architect ... of his own demise. - Second Renaissance

Do you think this word choice is a coincidence?
How can the Architect think freely when he is, as he does acknowledge himself,... bound by the parameters of perfection.

Oracle: *rolls eyes* Please... You and I may not be able to see beyond our own choices, but that man can't see past any choices.
Neo: Why not?
Oracle: He doesn't understand them - he can't. To him they are variables in an equation. One at a time each variable must be solved and countered. That's his purpose: to balance the equation.

Neo’s connection to the Source in the Real world –EXPLAINED:

MrMatrix wrote:

The biggest one is the fact that NEO has a dream about trinity dying at the beginning of Reloaded, an event that does not take place until the very end of the movie. Every event that takes place after Neos drem leads up to the dream comming true. How can you know what is going to happen in the future when it is supposed to be based on Zion being free, or in other words events in Zion should be random, but they are not, because everything happens to keep NEO on the path. I will talk about this further if responses warrant.

First, I agree with Max314's descriptions. They seem warrented and based on the movie and the script. (I've read them all.)

So, to solve on of your biggest problems: Neo had a dream of Trin dying in M2, but he wasn't dreaming of her death, remember? His dream was of her jumping out of the window and getting shot. He doesn't see her die; and he says he doesn't see her die when he's talking to O. So, your trouble should now be at ease.

But just for the sake of arguement, lets just say he did see her die in the Logos. (which as I pointed out he didn't) But if he did: the O said Neo is looking at the world without time. That means he can see what happens, but that doesn't take the free will from the participants in the events he sees. He merely sees them doing it.

He is (in essence) outside the timeline looking at what happens, thus his present view in a dream could actually be future events.

This doesn't mess with free will because they still choose. But it does say that they've already made the choice. So, the future does already exist. But as O said, you're not here to make the choice, you've already made it. Now you have to understand it.

If you say that Zion is a form of control, you're right. Just like Neo said. If you say that Zion is another matrix and they're all still plugged in, then you're not supported by the film or the script. You can take many of your assumptions and build on them, or take quotes out of context all you want, but the fact is the movie as a whole doesn't support it.


edit for spelling

Hey Aquin, welcome back.

I guess the question is going to be "How can Neo (or Oracle, for that matter - and by extension, Archie) really tell what is going to happen in the future?"

To answer this one is to try to look beyond the technical and perhaps even social allegory angles many are posting from.

*here's where I am supposed to insert a plug for the 7/7 thread, Tozy, and Vanexel711 *

Aquin wrote:

She says he's seeing the world without time. Thats how Neo/O can know what will happen in the future. Archie can't see the future, says O. The technical (how) behind that I'm not 100% on, but from what the movie says and shows, that is how Neo/O sees the future. Fairly simple.

I meant that if there was a technical explination, I didn't know it. Its just that the movie told you how they know the future, but don't tell you how they look at the world w/o time.

PS- I though you guys would have caught that.

PPS- O is alot easier than writing out Oracle a crapload of times.

So you think there's a technical explanation to Neo seeing the future in his dreams and the "O" being able to tell the future? Now I really am interested in hearing about that because I have some stock and I am willing to hansomely reward a poster that can shed light on "seeing the world" without time on a technical basis.

The Oracle just said that it was what was going on, not how even this is possible in a physical or material sort of way. But hey, I'm open. Throw me something!

intell wrote:

So you think there's a technical explanation to Neo seeing the future in his dreams and the "O" being able to tell the future? Now I really am interested in hearing about that because I have some stock and I am willing to hansomely reward a poster that can shed light on "seeing the world" without time on a technical basis.

I know you hate wiki articles as posts generally, but I don't have the time to type it all out myself right now (though I have before on the forum, so might try a search for psychohistory)--
en.wikipedia.org...

Quote:

Asimov: Well, I can't help but think it would be good, except that in my stories, I always have opposing views. In other words, people argue all possible... all possible... ways of looking at psychohistory and deciding whether it is good or bad. So you can't really tell. I happen to feel sort of on the optimistic side. I think if we can somehow get across some of the problems that face us now, humanity has a glorious future, and that if we could use the tenets of psychohistory to guide ourselves we might avoid a great many troubles. But on the other hand, it might create troubles. It's impossible to tell in advance.

Mmmm. Okay, that was a good response. But I can't help but wonder whether this is what the W's were alluding too at all. But it is currently what I try to use to make certain financial decisions!

And the bold in Asimov's quote is mine. I don't know if this was an intended pun but it fits. LOL

intell wrote:

So you think there's a technical explanation to Neo seeing the future in his dreams and the "O" being able to tell the future?

About Neo seeing the future I would really like to read a technical explanation.

About the "O" being able to tell the future there are many threads and some of them are good.

th3 p4th wrote:

About the "O" being able to tell the future there are many threads and some of them are good.

Some of them are okay, but the ones that try to explain it from a pure technical pov, I have found to be severely lacking. They usually try to portray Oracle and/or Architect as using mathematical calculations to approximate an outcome, which is in my humble opinion very far off from what we see happening in the movies.

(Architect mentions "chemical precursors". We could write pages on trying to explain how much a program would know about chemicals at all. But I'm not going to get into it.)

There is a big difference in mathematically approximating and being "intuitive" as Archie calls her. But hey, as I said, I'm open to consider what anyone can really bring to the table on it.

Peace!