»There is no MWAM. The explanation for Neo's powers is this:«

tozy wrote:

Think of an empty vase made of clay. The space inside the vase is the same as the space outside the vase. But the walls of the vase limit it and cause an absence of light. It is perceived as separate, different and dark -> limited/conditioned by the clay walls. Once the clay walls are shattered, the space inside the vase - even though it never truly left - can "return" to the space outside the vase. And now think of an empty vase,... in a room,... in an appartment,... in a house... It is boxes within boxes, with space being the same, but feeling different due to the walls. With each wall shattered from within, the next bigger box, or underlying reality, can be perceived, which means: space is being perceived as determined by the most inner standing wall. And once all walls are shattered, space is perceived in it's true form: without limits.

Tozy, that was a great description! As I read it, it made me think of all the layers of controls that Neo broke through only to find another layer of control. The first movie was all about Neo becoming the One, and oh how we all thought that was so cool. Neo breaks through a wall and now lookit! He can stop bullets! Look out, agents! Neo's coming, and he's gonna kick your butt! Oh, wait a sec. You mean, Neo becoming the One was expected? You mean, the Oracle isn't even human? You mean, the One is gonna be part of Zion being destroyed--including his girlfriend? You mean, this is all one big repeating cycle with no end in sight?

Layer after layer is peeled away, each time the perception being, "Okay, THIS TIME we've achieved freedom for sure!" Only to find out that the freedom is actually an illusion (again, again) and there's yet another wall in front of them.

So tozy, here's the part I want to make sure I understand, since I don't come from the same philosophical background as you. Is Neo TRULY transcending at the end of Matrix Revolutions--not by breaking through another wall, but by realizing that transcendence comes when you STOP trying to break through walls because it's ALL illusion (like your vase illustration where the space is the same in all locations)? If that's the case, is that why Neo's final act of transcendence occurs INSIDE the Matrix--the place where he started and which seemed to be the very place that needed to be destroyed because it's a prison and "evil" and all that? In other words, Neo's transcendence didn't come by DESTROYING the Matrix (like Morpheus thought he was supposed to) but by realizing that INTEGRATION and ACCEPTANCE was the true path to peace. Am I getting it, or am I only seeing pieces of it still?

As I understand it, Neo's final act of transcendence occurs when he finally understands that the origin of the walls is himself.

I guess this needs some further explaining. I'll get back to you when the kids are in bed...

tozy wrote:

As I understand it, Neo's final act of transcendence occurs when he finally understands that the origin of the walls is himself.

And now we've come full circle to the original idea, which is that the entire trilogy is a parable about singular consciousness, with all the characters and locations simply symbolizing different aspects of the ONE consciousness. Or is that an oversimplification?

I'll write up some responses to the deeper posts later, but I just couldn't sit on this.

matrix-explained.com...

Thanks for helping out that part of the conversation here, Feral!

CaptPostMod wrote:

I'll write up some responses to the deeper posts later, but I just couldn't sit on this. matrix-explained.com... Thanks for helping out that part of the conversation here, Feral!

My pleasure, Capt! I tend to focus more on the literal, materialistic side of the Matrix trilogy, but I feel that it works as a good complement to the comments of those who delve more into the spiritual side of things. As Ken Wilber might say, an integral approach would include all of these angles—and more!

I recall some diagrams being posted in this thread, illustrating how various places relate to each other.

I found this a couple of days ago, and am posting it here for anyone who might be interested. (The site info says the last change to it was in 2003. Looks like the owner never got around to "explaining" Revs.)

intell wrote:

Raise your hand if you didn't see this one coming. Max hauling out again, the moment he sees where his words are going.

Gosh, you're a mean little prick, aren't you?

I go away for exams (which went rather well, before you ask, just one more paper due tomorrow) and I come back to find that you accused me of lying. Do you enjoy being an asshole or did your mum just not love you or something while you were growing up?

intell wrote:

A right that, of course, from the OP to his first encounter with dissent on a spiritual explanation of "Neo's powers", he has never extended to anyone but himself. I believe he used the terms "nutter", nut-job, hippie, etc. and those are only the PG-rated epithets. So if that is the tone of the thread, I was thinking that allowance didn't exist here.

Uh...no.

My comments weren't directed at the "spiritual explanation", they were directed at the sci-fi explanation that there was a literal Matrix-within-a-Matrix. I said that there was next to no evidence to support this and that any arguments made on its behalf were wafer thin (ergo, it was "the Most Wankerfied A[b]nalaysis in [b]Memory" as far as I was concerned).

Later on, users started introducing spiritual concepts as explanations, and I tried to make it clear that - for the purposes of this thread - I wasn't looking particularly at spiritual theories, but at explanations more in the vain of cyberpunk sci-fi.

intell wrote:

tozy wrote: There is no location of Brahman. The where is the metaphorical expression of how. So does the Source have a location? You said, "Machine City". Where else? You see, max, continues to apply being related to the Source with glowing, which is being seen (or TOUCHED) far away from the City. Whereas he is loathe to venturing into expressing what that relationship actually is. So, what do you say it is?

The metaphor is made manifest in the trilogy as a singular location. I seem to recall Tozy's already making it clear earlier that the Machine City is where the power is 'seated' or 'represented'. I happen to agree with that.

intell wrote:

But now, he's saying that they're not connected but concentric? Not only that but that the opening sequence of Revolutions helps to prove it.

Is there something wrong with your eyes?

I said:

"...it showed to me was that the machine mainframe and the Matrix are connected." -- MAX

"Connected", boy. Not "concentric".

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Max's sanity is called into question for his inconsistencies in his own theories that are plain to everyone but him, while he is quick to jump on me when I let him believe it was the other way around. References, why Thomas couldn't see the Logos or Trinity, the Architect's words on "design", why the prime program is NOT the matrix, need I list more? When he thinks he has his dissenters in a compromising situation, he sure has a lot to say. But when he sees that it is he, who is 'dead to rights', then it's 'a horse of another colour'.

Whoa, whoa...so now my "sanity is called into question"? Why? Because I happen to disagree with your opinions? Jesus...

Anyway, side-stabbing ad hominem attacks to one side, you made two statements that remotely resemble actual 'points':

1. - Neo's inability to see the Logos or Trinity with the glow.

I don't see how this can be faulted, really. If Neo sees everything from the Machine mainframe, then he can't see the Logos or Trinity, which are not from there.

2. - The Architect's "design" comment.

This was referring to Neo's psychological state as opposed to his biomechanical one, as CMP and myself had agreed. I had originally used it with reference to the latter, but even though it doesn't apply in that particular context, it doesn't negate any of the other points I've said regarding Neo's cybernetic abilities.

And yes, genius - it is a different ball game if it's you in your territory fighting alongside those who agree with your opinion than it is fighting outnumbered. But, darling, I'm more than used to it, fighting for The Matrix in some of the most popular film forums on the net where The Matrix is not the most favoured series, and actually getting a lot more people interested in the series than would otherwise be.

intell wrote:

If you think Max really believes this, why in your opinion, would he attempt to explain what is happening in the story in a context that disregards what you say the story is about?

Eh?

For the NINEHUNDREDBILLIONTHFUCKINGTIME...

...I haven't disregarded any of the many parallel threads and motifs running through the trilogy.

BUT

For the purposes of this thread, I was interested in focussing on one of those threads or motifs: the science fiction one.

You do take kinda long to catch on.

vieome wrote:

T o z y ! Why is it that you all try and explain the matrix through the old theorys or religions. Is the matrix not bringin us a new(Neo) way of looking at the world. You can not solve a problem in the world it was created in. You have to step into the new world. Yes the matrix does reflect the old thinking on a meta level. But it is a unifyiing theory. The theory of all the parts roled into one. the center of the matrix is man. The center of man is his internal world of thought. Sh*te out of time

1. - New Vs. Old:

Physically, the only difference between that which is "old" and that which is "new" is time. However, environmentally, the pre-Kal Yug era was a time of great purity and wisdom. Way before Man's ego began destroying Mother Earth and himself, there was a time of sages. But it would seem that it was not the Will of the Universe that Sat Yug would forever last. Don't allow the label of 'new' to cloud your judgement. 'New' just means 'young'. 'Young' means inexperienced. Even the most vital and youthful beings, however capable, are still in need of 'old world' guidance. Even Neo. Without the archaic wisdom of the Oracle, he would be nowhere.

2. - Man and the Matrix:

This feeble, pentasensory body is limited. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can be at peace with the way of the Universe. However, that doesn't mean that we can't access aspects of an objective Universe. Yes, the Universe is the object, and we are its subjects. It is this interdependent, interconnected relationship that is the truth of all things. Its Man's belief that he is his own Universe that is the essence of Kal Yug, and it is the absolution of this untruth that Sat Yug might be born again.

max314 wrote:

For the NINEHUNDREDBILLIONTHFUCKINGTIME... ...I haven't disregarded any of the many parallel threads and motifs running through the trilogy. BUT For the purposes of this thread, I was interested in focussing on one of those threads or motifs: the science fiction one. You do take kinda long to catch on.

Yes, but it is a scientific fiction thread that doesn't make sense. Hence, the reason we "take kinda long to catch on".

Why don't you ask Capt. about his ideas on a science fiction thread that "MAY" (if he knows as much as he hints) make more sense?

And, when all is said and done, you might want to rethink the whole name-calling idea. Because from my sci-fi pov, you make zero sense.

(If capt. doesn't do it, I will later).

Gina Rink wrote:

Yes, but it is a scientific fiction thread that doesn't make sense.

That's your opinion, of course.

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Hence, the reason we "take kinda long to catch on".

Well, I'm not responsible for what you choose to think.

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Why don't you ask Capt. about his ideas on a science fiction thread that "MAY" (if he knows as much as he hints) make more sense?

You want me to ask him a question on your behalf? Ask him yourself.

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And, when all is said and done, you might want to rethink the whole name-calling idea. Because from my sci-fi pov, you make zero sense.

Oh well. There are other users who have said they thought the sci-fi explanation I was focussing on made perfect logical sense. Yeah, in the vain of the time-travel paradox à la the Terminator films, there may be a couple of nitpicky loopholes here and there (though I can't think of any off the top of my head) but, insofar as general principles are concerned, the whole 'Neo has an EM connection to the Machine mainframe' makes perfect sense and is substantiated by the events and dialogue in movies.

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(If capt. doesn't do it, I will later).

You sure do love that whole "I'll be back..." thing. "Are you ready for this...?" "Do you think your feeble mind can handle my intellectual awesomeness...?" Heh, you really have got this self-lovin' vibe about you, haven't you?

Quit the foreplay and just get on with it and say what you think, eh?

max, no comment on Feral's awesome Prime Program stuff?

No thread will ever answer the question but I think the answer to the matrix question will look like this.

iambooks.blogspot.com...

max314 wrote:

That's your opinion, of course.

My opinion is that what you're writing is for our amusement. Hoping that one day, you'll be queen?

The fact is your musings aren't exactly inline with the writers. That is, if they are YOUR musings at all.

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Well, I'm not responsible for what you choose to think.

Nor am I responsible for your mistakes, but in this case, I thought I'd just tell you about them.

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You want me to ask him a question on your behalf? Ask him yourself.

Don't need to. Based upon the different ways he expresses himself, I'll guess that capt. knows his conspiracy theory well enough to put you on the correct track, that is, if you ask him.

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Oh well. There are other users who have said they thought the sci-fi explanation I was focussing on made perfect logical sense.

So, do you take responsibility for their thinking or is there a possibility that they are just as deluded as you?

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Yeah, in the vain of the time-travel paradox à la the Terminator films, there may be a couple of nitpicky loopholes here and there (though I can't think of any off the top of my head) but, insofar as general principles are concerned, the whole 'Neo has an EM connection to the Machine mainframe' makes perfect sense and is substantiated by the events and dialogue in movies.

Controlling EM has another name: telekinesis. This idea has been around LONG before there were sci-fi movies.

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You sure do love that whole "I'll be back..." thing. "Are you ready for this...?" "Do you think your feeble mind can handle my intellectual awesomeness...?" Heh, you really have got this self-lovin' vibe about you, haven't you?

Truth is, you don't have to be genius to figure this stuff out. You have to me somewhat social and somewhat intuitive. Ever notice how some kid's parents push their kids into math and science early in their lives? And, some never grasp a hold on it. Does that mean that the parents of the former were smarter than the latter?

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Quit the foreplay and just get on with it and say what you think, eh?

Uh, I have been. You, as usual, are not listening. Funny how school doesn't make you (Max) any more intelligent, analytical, or intuitive.
--------------------------
So, tell us about the movie Pi, max.
--------------------------
Note: One of the most important aspects of college is to socialize beyond drinking yourself to death. Talk face-to-face to people about these issues and not just telling them your ideas. Actually, ask them about theirs. If you finish college thinking what you've put forward in this thread, it has been a complete waste of time for you.

...I will just say that when or if you converse with people about these things that you actually listen to their ideas and not just take the words they say far from their intended context like you're doing so much of, here.

And you might want to address your proclivity for cognitive dissonance. For example you "take no responsibility for" how others feel on one hand and on the other hand (in the same d*** post) you helped turn many disinterested people into matrix fans...single-handedly. I almost want to ask you if you had to walk through rain snow up hill both ways while you were doing all that.

max314 wrote:

intell wrote: A right that, of course, from the OP to his first encounter with dissent on a spiritual explanation of "Neo's powers", he has never extended to anyone but himself. I believe he used the terms "nutter", nut-job, hippie, etc. and those are only the PG-rated epithets. So if that is the tone of the thread, I was thinking that allowance didn't exist here. Uh...no. My comments weren't directed at the "spiritual explanation", they were directed at the sci-fi explanation that there was a literal Matrix-within-a-Matrix. I said that there was next to no evidence to support this and that any arguments made on its behalf were wafer thin (ergo, it was "the Most Wankerfied A[b]nalaysis in [b]Memory" as far as I was concerned). Later on, users started introducing spiritual concepts as explanations, and I tried to make it clear that - for the purposes of this thread - I wasn't looking particularly at spiritual theories, but at explanations more in the vain of cyberpunk sci-fi.

Do you think you want to delete this or do you want me to 'run the tape recorder' again and provide links and excerpts of where you called Captpostmod, Demifey, DaVinci, and/or me, hippies, nutjobs, etc. because of the spiritual perspective we applied to the "explanation of Neo's powers"?

Gina Rink wrote:

My opinion is that what you're writing is for our amusement. Hoping that one day, you'll be queen?

No.

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The fact is your musings aren't exactly inline with the writers.

They are more than mere musings.

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That is, if they are YOUR musings at all.

No, you're right. They're not mine. They actually belonged to the Easter Bunny before I nicked his basket-full of eggs, which happened to contain all his opinions on The Matrix.

Everything I say is my own opinion. I've never claimed anything more or less. Even while you've been declaring that you've got the definitive understanding to the entire trilogy on every level.

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Nor am I responsible for your mistakes, but in this case, I thought I'd just tell you about them.

Thanks, but I don't need you to look out for me. I think you need to handle your own shit first.

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Don't need to. Based upon the different ways he expresses himself, I'll guess that capt. knows his conspiracy theory well enough to put you on the correct track, that is, if you ask him.

You obviously think I'm 'in need' of something (a "correct track", apparently). I don't share that view, hence I have no investment in it whatsoever. Therefore, if anyone is going to ask him anything to do with this, it's going to be you.

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So, do you take responsibility for their thinking or is there a possibility that they are just as deluded as you?

"Deluded" in whose opinion? Yours? Intell's? Not the most damning indictment coming from people with your reputation, is it really?

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Controlling EM has another name: telekinesis. This idea has been around LONG before there were sci-fi movies.

Yes, but the concept of electromagnetic attacks being "the only weapon...against the Machines" and human beings having mechanically augmented bodies that allow them to interface with the Machines' software is something that's a lot less extraneous and more inherent to the story of these films than "telekenesis...this idea has been around LONG before there were sci-fi movies".

They talk about radio waves, electromagnetic attacks, cybernetic organisms, etc. They don't talk about random bouts of "telekenesis".

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Truth is, you don't have to be genius to figure this stuff out. You have to me somewhat social and somewhat intuitive. Ever notice how some kid's parents push their kids into math and science early in their lives? And, some never grasp a hold on it. Does that mean that the parents of the former were smarter than the latter?

Translation: "I'm just naturally talented...I can't help that I'm so damn good!"

Yeah, perfect example of the self-love I was referring to earlier.

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Uh, I have been. You, as usual, are not listening. Funny how school doesn't make you (Max) any more intelligent, analytical, or intuitive.

Implying, once again, that you actually are "intelligent, analytical [and] intuitive".

Yet more self-love.

I bet your mirror is your best friend, ain't it?

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So, tell us about the movie Pi, max.

"About" it? A bit vague, aren't you?

Haven't seen it, anyway.

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Note: One of the most important aspects of college is to socialize beyond drinking yourself to death. Talk face-to-face to people about these issues and not just telling them your ideas. Actually, ask them about theirs. If you finish college thinking what you've put forward in this thread, it has been a complete waste of time for you.

A few facts about me that aren't really any of your business.

- I'm not at college.
- I don't drink.
- I don't smoke.
- I don't do drugs.
- You don't know what my social life is like, the people I've met, the conversations I've had, and the experiences that constitute my life thus far. So you don't have a leg to stand on by making empty assumptions about various areas of my life (which, by the way, you actually have no business bringing into this discussion, so I advise you retreat from it immediately).

However, if your self-loving attitude on the forums is anywhere reflected in your real life, I suggest you take your own advice and "talk face-to-face to people about these issues and not just telling them your ideas".

intell wrote:

...I will just say that when or if you converse with people about these things that you actually listen to their ideas and not just take the words they say far from their intended context like you're doing so much of, here.

What I do or don't talk to other people about is not your business, so butt the fuck out.

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And you might want to address your proclivity for cognitive dissonance. For example you "take no responsibility for" how others feel on one hand and on the other hand (in the same d*** post) you helped turn many disinterested people into matrix fans...single-handedly. I almost want to ask you if you had to walk through rain snow up hill both ways while you were doing all that.

I don't take any responsibility for other peoples' opinions whatsoever. How and why they form those opinions is their concern.

But, if I have a view on The Matrix that I believe in, I will express that to whichever extent I please. Others changing their views on The Matrix (i.e. going from disliking it to liking it) is just a side-effect of that process.

It doesn't mean I "take responsibility" for them changing their minds. At the end of the day, it's their choice, not mine. Hence, it's their responsibility, not mine.

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Do you think you want to delete this or do you want me to 'run the tape recorder' again and provide links and excerpts of where you called Captpostmod, Demifey, DaVinci, and/or me, hippies, nutjobs, etc. because of the spiritual perspective we applied to the "explanation of Neo's powers"?

You were "nutjobs" for not appreciating the sci-fi bent that this thread was supposed to have. Tozy got it. Aquin got it. A few others got it. But, hey, you can't please everyone, can you?

CaptPostMod wrote:

max, no comment on Feral's awesome Prime Program stuff?

Ain't read it.

EDIT:
Actually, I think I remember reading it quite a while back. I seem to remember thinking some of it was interesting, whilst other bits were kind of stretching it. I might give it another read later to refresh the ol' cogs.

max314 wrote:

You don't know what my social life is like, the people I've met, the conversations I've had, and the experiences that constitute my life thus far.

Interesting... a statement as "far" from the Source as can be, isn't it?

That's not an insult to you, max. Just a remark on our states of mind.

max314 wrote:

- I don't drink. - I don't smoke. - I don't do drugs.

I advise doing all three as soon as possible!

In this or any other thread, where are the people who support this idea even as being logical. You still haven't shown us (verbally or visually) HOW Thomas controlled the EM from a sci-fi perspective. Have you?

How many times have you ignored that request?

And, for your initial point, the term "matrix" insinuates a few things, does it not? How can you make an argument about there's no matrix-within-a-matrix without ever showing us what the matrix is?

max314 wrote:

Gina Rink wrote: My opinion is that what you're writing is for our amusement. Hoping that one day, you'll be queen? No. Quote: The fact is your musings aren't exactly inline with the writers. They are more than mere musings. Quote: That is, if they are YOUR musings at all. No, you're right. They're not mine. They actually belonged to the Easter Bunny before I nicked his basket-full of eggs, which happened to contain all his opinions on The Matrix. Everything I say is my own opinion. I've never claimed anything more or less. Even while you've been declaring that you've got the definitive understanding to the entire trilogy on every level. Quote: Nor am I responsible for your mistakes, but in this case, I thought I'd just tell you about them. Thanks, but I don't need you to look out for me. I think you need to handle your own shit first. Quote: Don't need to. Based upon the different ways he expresses himself, I'll guess that capt. knows his conspiracy theory well enough to put you on the correct track, that is, if you ask him. You obviously think I'm 'in need' of something (a "correct track", apparently). I don't share that view, hence I have no investment in it whatsoever. Therefore, if anyone is going to ask him anything to do with this, it's going to be you. Quote: So, do you take responsibility for their thinking or is there a possibility that they are just as deluded as you? "Deluded" in whose opinion? Yours? Intell's? Not the most damning indictment coming from people with your reputation, is it really? Quote: Controlling EM has another name: telekinesis. This idea has been around LONG before there were sci-fi movies. Yes, but the concept of electromagnetic attacks being "the only weapon...against the Machines" and human beings having mechanically augmented bodies that allow them to interface with the Machines' software is something that's a lot less extraneous and more inherent to the story of these films than "telekenesis...this idea has been around LONG before there were sci-fi movies". They talk about radio waves, electromagnetic attacks, cybernetic organisms, etc. They don't talk about random bouts of "telekenesis". Quote: Truth is, you don't have to be genius to figure this stuff out. You have to me somewhat social and somewhat intuitive. Ever notice how some kid's parents push their kids into math and science early in their lives? And, some never grasp a hold on it. Does that mean that the parents of the former were smarter than the latter? Translation: "I'm just naturally talented...I can't help that I'm so damn good!" Yeah, perfect example of the self-love I was referring to earlier. Quote: Uh, I have been. You, as usual, are not listening. Funny how school doesn't make you (Max) any more intelligent, analytical, or intuitive. Implying, once again, that you actually are "intelligent, analytical [and] intuitive". Yet more self-love. I bet your mirror is your best friend, ain't it? Quote: So, tell us about the movie Pi, max. "About" it? A bit vague, aren't you? Haven't seen it, anyway. Quote: Note: One of the most important aspects of college is to socialize beyond drinking yourself to death. Talk face-to-face to people about these issues and not just telling them your ideas. Actually, ask them about theirs. If you finish college thinking what you've put forward in this thread, it has been a complete waste of time for you. A few facts about me that aren't really any of your business. - I'm not at college. - I don't drink. - I don't smoke. - I don't do drugs. - You don't know what my social life is like, the people I've met, the conversations I've had, and the experiences that constitute my life thus far. So you don't have a leg to stand on by making empty assumptions about various areas of my life (which, by the way, you actually have no business bringing into this discussion, so I advise you retreat from it immediately). However, if your self-loving attitude on the forums is anywhere reflected in your real life, I suggest you take your own advice and "talk face-to-face to people about these issues and not just telling them your ideas".

Doesn't matter what you think, Max? In a week or so, no one will pay you any mind, any more.

In the meantime, I suggest you go rent a copy of Happy Feet aka The Matrix for kids. Note who is responsible for the movie and who is the headlining songwriter.

CaptPostMod wrote:

max314 wrote: You don't know what my social life is like, the people I've met, the conversations I've had, and the experiences that constitute my life thus far. Interesting... a statement as "far" from the Source as can be, isn't it? That's not an insult to you, max. Just a remark on our states of mind.

It's no insult...well, not yet anyway...since I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say.

Anyway, your 'insults' are like friendly little kitty mews compared to some of the crud I get from other users, so I doubt I'll be bothered by it

CaptPostMod wrote:

max314 wrote: - I don't drink. - I don't smoke. - I don't do drugs. I advise doing all three as soon as possible!

No need. Most of my friends do it, and I'm fully aware of the 'benefits'...

Gina Rink wrote:

In this or any other thread, where are the people who support this idea even as being logical. You still haven't shown us (verbally or visually) HOW Thomas controlled the EM from a sci-fi perspective. Have you?

Yes I have. Many times.

You know what they say; you can lead a horse to water...

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How many times have you ignored that request?

Probably after I'd explained it for the seven hundredth time.

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And, for your initial point, the term "matrix" insinuates a few things, does it not? How can you make an argument about there's no matrix-within-a-matrix without ever showing us what the matrix is?

The term 'matrix' does indeed have a number of different parallel references.

However, of all those references, I was intended to focus purely on the most literal science fiction rendition of what the Matrix is i.e. that it is a computer program that generates a virtual world designed to interface with digitised projections of human consciousness and sentient programs. Using that as the definition of what the Matrix is, the idea of a 'Matrix-within-a-Matrix' is one that - insofar as this thread is supposed to be concerned - references the idea of two computer generated virtual simulations, with one existing inside another. On this level, I am saying that there is no other computer generated Matrix other than the one we see manifested as green code within the films.

If you're looking for 'Matrix-within-a-Matrix' in a psychological, existential sense à la Baudrillard, then I agree that this theme does exist. Indeed, I acknowledged its existence very early on in this now-gargantuan thread. However, for the purposes of this particular thread, it was not my direct intention to address that one thematic issue, because I wanted to focus on the films as a literal science fiction story for the time being.

Gina Rink wrote:

Doesn't matter what you think, Max? In a week or so, no one will pay you any mind, any more.

Oh, that's nice, since I never actually asked for any "mind" to begin with. Any "mind" I did get was the choice of other users. Users like yourself and Intell and Demifey and whoever else.

Besides, I see only positives in the possibility of not having to read your near-surreal posts. A combination of backbiting, dirt digging and mud slinging that at times verges on the obsessive. It's quite a surreal experience actually.

PS I do find it interesting, however, that you accuse me of attention seeking, and say that attention whoring is my only motivation for posting here (quite a rude thing to say, of course, but it's not like you're beyond that, is it?). And yet, whenever I do choose to leave, the first thing I get (though, admittedly, not always from you) is a slew of accusations to the effect of 'MAX has just chickened out' or 'MAX has realised he's full of shit so he's fucked off', hehe...

If I say something, I'm an attention whore. If I back off, I'm conceding defeat.

It's like a catch 22 situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I guess that's just what happens when you're around childish individuals, eh? Double standards and half-baked retorts made more on the basis of personal vendetta than integrity of substance. Oh well. Perhaps you're not as enlightened as you make out...surprise

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In the meantime, I suggest you go rent a copy of Happy Feet aka The Matrix for kids. Note who is responsible for the movie and who is the headlining songwriter.

John Powell? He comes up as the composer on IMDB.