»There is no MWAM. The explanation for Neo's powers is this:«

I understand you point, I believe the same thing and although it makes sense.. hm. What others think?

max314 wrote:

At what point do the words "second Matrix" appear?

They are machines. Thomas is human. Poor analogy. Yes?

I have no desire to go into analysis paralysis with you. And, this is because I don't have any desire to pick any more holes in your analogies. However, I will say this. GITS is only one of the myriad of sources the writers used. And, it damn sure isn't the most important.

However, I find it strange that someone who taking a techno-geek stance (that's if you know what stance you're taking) and doesn't know that all computers are magical.

Hence, the line, "Mr. Wizard, get me the hell out of here."

Let's flip this around for a second:

The way you've framed "MWAM"; yes, you're correct. But, what you don't understand is the way you've framed your argument is just as magical as "MWAM" is.

However, you already know there are multiple realms with different rules. The question lies in what governs the rules of the realms?

Think about this for a while.

Gina Rink wrote:

They are machines. Thomas is human. Poor analogy. Yes?

That's a massive leap you're taking. There's nothing within the context of the movies to support your claim other than "uh...it's possible".

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I have no desire to go into analysis paralysis with you. And, this is because I don't have any desire to pick any more holes in your analogies.

You haven't successfully been able to pick even one, my dear.

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However, I will say this. GITS is only one of the myriad of sources the writers used. And, it damn sure isn't the most important.

Alongside with 'Neuromancer', I'd say it most certainly is.

Which film did the Wachowskis show Joel Silver when pitching him The Matrix? None other than Ghost In The Shell. I believe Silver quoted them as saying "we want to do that for real".

P.S. - Please note that I am not saying that Neo has a wireless capability because Motoko and her peers in GITS have that ability. I'm merely saying that the idea of a wireless connection is not considered "magical" but has actually made appearanced in works of science fiction, most prominently, those works that most inspired the Wachowskis. The evidence of Neo's wireless connection is fully established within the context of the movies, however.

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However, I find it strange that someone who taking a techno-geek stance (that's if you know what stance you're taking) and doesn't know that all computers are magical. Hence, the line, "Mr. Wizard, get me the hell out of here."

"I'm in deep shit."

Now, if I were to take your sense of logic by turning a colloquialism into a literal meaning, that would mean that I am currently wading knee-deep through a puddle of smelly excrement.

Owing to my flower-fresh scent, my wonderfully clean skin, and my shinty leather loafers, I think it would be safe to say that this simply is not the case.

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Let's flip this around for a second: The way you've framed "MWAM"; yes, you're correct. But, what you don't understand is the way you've framed your argument is just as magical as "MWAM" is. However, you already know there are multiple realms with different rules. The question lies in what governs the rules of the realms? Think about this for a while.

While I'm sure I could postulate upon something not even presented within the context of the trilogy, I'd much rather stick to what is than what could be in the realm of pure, ungrounded imagination.

There is nothing "magical" about a wireless connection. Not unless the ships and the squiddies also operate on "magic", because they too engage in wireless interactions.

'MWAM' isn't "magical", though. It's just a poor, poor cop out of an explanation; perhaps for those who don't want to accept that the hero is a cybernetic organism. Which, owing to the mechanical augmentations made to his body, he absolutely is, without any shadow of a doubt.

----

I suggest you read through my parent post once more and tell me exactly what "holes" you perceive there to be.

Otherwise, with all due respect, I don't believe we have a dialogue.

th3 p4th wrote:

But I can't understand how she knew that Neo and Trinity would fall in love. How could she be so sure?

Cypher: You weren't supposed to relieve me.
Trinity: I know, but I want to take your shift.
Cypher: You like watching him, don't you? You like watching him.

max314 wrote:

But by telling Trinity that she would fall in love with whomsoever the One was, the power of suggestion combined with the power of belief ensured that Trinity did indeed fall in love with Neo.

Oracle: No one can tell you your in love, you just know it...

The Oracle cannot create (nor is true love a matter of believe). The "eyes of the Oracle" can only see what is already there, but not yet perceived/understood. Based on what she can see (in combination with her knowledge of the system), she can guide people into experiencing, and thus understanding, the hidden, transforming it into conscious knowledge.

max314 wrote:

the only way she could ever hope to achieve that was if Neo loved one person more than the rest of humanity.

Neo: If we don't so something, in 24 hours, Zion will be destroyed.

The moment he understood his choice to save Trinity, Neo did not give up on mankind. Rather, I believe, his love for Trinity gave him the power to not retreat given the Architect's options (Trinity or mankind), but to transcend them -> growth -> matrix-explained.com...

Neo: What if I can't? What happens if I fail?
Oracle: Then Zion will fall

max314 wrote:

As for the visions, as I said earlier, it must be the Wachowskis messing with the fourth dimension, perhaps stating that reaching some type of spiritual or mental 'enlightenment' as wise men and women of the past have done allows one to transcend the boundaries of time and see into the future.

Larry W.: The Matrix is an exploration of consciousness.

I think the "future" in this case is not so much an event, as it is an inner state, because, as I said above: the path of the One through time is just as much a path through the "space" of consciousness.
It is being stated in the movies that the path of the One ends in ONEness. Essentially we are all (the same) light,... only we are not aware of it. It is hidden in our subconscious.
The selfless love between Neo and Trinity is the cracking open of two separate individuals, merging them in union (Oneness with another person, as a bridge to universal ONEness).
If you "enter" your subconscious via the mind you cannot "access" ONEness, because this "depth" of our subconscious lies beyond the separating intellect (only when the mind is stilled...). Through the mind, you enter your subconscious as an individual.
This, I believe, is being expressed with Trinity's death, in case that Neo returns to the source at that "time"/"place": giving up on the path of Oneness towards ONEness.
For that reason, I understand Neo's dreams as an allegory for a glimpse into his subconscious (the "path" of the One) rather than seeing a specific/literal event taking place in the future.

tozy wrote:

th3 p4th wrote: the only way she could ever hope to achieve that was if Neo loved one person more than the rest of humanity.

Somehow you and intell keep making quotes with my screen name although I never written that text! Boy, am I popular here!

Anyway I fixed it.

And your post was very informative and helped me understand better the movies

th3 p4th wrote:

Boy, am I popular here!

You sure are

th3 p4th wrote:

Anyway I fixed it.

Thx

th3 p4th wrote:

But I can't understand how she knew that Neo and Trinity would fall in love. How could she be so sure?

Prognosticating that the head cheerleader will fall in love with the star quarterback doesn't take the "eyes of the Oracle."

Edit:

Max, have you considered yet that what YOU are saying is pure nonsense? Have you considered that Thomas being part machine is a false analogy? Have you considered yet that the whole idea of what you believe is a false dichotomy because some people don't believe that you die? Have you considered that your total frame of reference is false and that you have to think about a NEW paradigm?

Keep in mind, max, this is your frame of reference. What may seem like a leap to you may just be someone who's a little ahead of you trying to get you to jump (understand). But, everyone falls the first time. Don't worry. Your mind makes what you believe real.

Gina Rink wrote:

However, I find it strange that someone who taking a techno-geek stance (that's if you know what stance you're taking) and doesn't know that all computers are magical.

From Magick in Theory and Practice by Aleister Crowley:

"What is a Magical Operation? It may be defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will."

CaptPostMod wrote:

Gina Rink wrote: However, I find it strange that someone who taking a techno-geek stance (that's if you know what stance you're taking) and doesn't know that all computers are magical. From Magick in Theory and Practice by Aleister Crowley: "What is a Magical Operation? It may be defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will."

Max314 wrote:

...some type of spiritual or mental 'enlightenment' as wise men and women of the past have done allows one to transcend the boundaries of time and see into the future.

tozy wrote:

Larry W.: The Matrix is an exploration of consciousness.

It can be said that what is thought of as magical is just the application of natural laws that are unknown or in an unknown way. Unknown by who? Unknown to the one calling it "magic".

tozy wrote:

Oracle: No one can tell you your in love, you just know it... The Oracle cannot create (nor is true love a matter of believe). The "eyes of the Oracle" can only see what is already there, but not yet perceived/understood. Based on what she can see (in combination with her knowledge of the system), she can guide people into experiencing, and thus understanding, the hidden, transforming it into conscious knowledge.

I never said she "create[d]" their love. Merely that she was suggesting it and hoping it would work. Her being as incredibly in tune as she is with the workings of the human mind, it wouldn't be too hard for her to do that.

She knows what motivates humans, she knows what humans innately respond to and, as such, she knows how to tweek their behaviour to her own ends. Why do you think the Merovingian wants her in his posession? Because he wants to have that ability to know the last unknowable frontier: the human mind.

However, whether or not love can be concocted or influenced, or whether it is something purely plutonic is for a separate discussion. For the pusposes of the plot, however, it seems fairly clear that the Oracle is the puppetmaster of these events. Even if she doesn't have complete control over them, she is still able to influence people/programs enough to tip them over the scales and into her palms.

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Neo: If we don't so something, in 24 hours, Zion will be destroyed. The moment he understood his choice to save Trinity, Neo did not give up on mankind. Rather, I believe, his love for Trinity gave him the power to not retreat given the Architect's options (Trinity or mankind), but to transcend them -> growth -> matrix-explained.com... Neo: What if I can't? What happens if I fail? Oracle: Then Zion will fall

Actually, the way I took it was "first I'll save Trinity, and then we'll see about everyone else"

It was, as the Architect said, Neo indulging in "hope", that he could save Trinity and then somehow save the rest of humanity.

Remember, it's not that he doesn't value humanity. It's just that he values Trinity a whole lot more.

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Larry W.: The Matrix is an exploration of consciousness. I think the "future" in this case is not so much an event, as it is an inner state, because, as I said above: the path of the One through time is just as much a path through the "space" of consciousness. It is being stated in the movies that the path of the One ends in ONEness. Essentially we are all (the same) light,... only we are not aware of it. It is hidden in our subconscious. The selfless love between Neo and Trinity is the cracking open of two separate individuals, merging them in union (Oneness with another person, as a bridge to universal ONEness). If you "enter" your subconscious via the mind you cannot "access" ONEness, because this "depth" of our subconscious lies beyond the separating intellect (only when the mind is stilled...). Through the mind, you enter your subconscious as an individual. This, I believe, is being expressed with Trinity's death, in case that Neo returns to the source at that "time"/"place": giving up on the path of Oneness towards ONEness. For that reason, I understand Neo's dreams as an allegory for a glimpse into his subconscious (the "path" of the One) rather than seeing a specific/literal event taking place in the future.

Yeah.

Gina Rink wrote:

Edit: Max, have you considered yet that what YOU are saying is pure nonsense?

Yes. I've considered it.

And I've come to the conclusion that, not only is it not nonsense, but that it makes perfect sense in every conceiveable way.

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Have you considered that Thomas being part machine is a false analogy?

Have you considered watching the movie recently?

Look at those metallic jacks on his body.

They're not just little paint-on pads for show. They're jacks that hook into a nervous system that has obviously been modified to receive and transmit the electrical impulses required from a jack.

Imagine if I painted a wee hole on the back of your head...and then I shoved a big-ass needle in there. You would, for lack of a better expression, be dead.

What would stop that?

Why, mechanical augmentation of course! Augmentation that doesn't just stop at a pretty little port being painted on the back of your skull.

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Have you considered yet that the whole idea of what you believe is a false dichotomy because some people don't believe that you die?

I'm sorry, would you mind rephrasing/explaining that? I'm not entirely sure what it is you mean?

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Have you considered that your total frame of reference is false and that you have to think about a NEW paradigm?

Trust me, I've considered the possibility of a Matrix within a Matrix. The problem is that there is just not a shred of evidence...not a shred...that substantiates this claim.

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Keep in mind, max, this is your frame of reference.

I have only one frame of reference.

The movies.

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What may seem like a leap to you may just be someone who's a little ahead of you trying to get you to jump (understand).

If you're implying that I am merely regurgitating an explanation given to me by someone else, you'd be a hundred per cent wrong.

All I ever needed was the movies.

I remember watching Neo down the squiddies at the end of Reloaded for the first time in 2003. I remember a friend of mine telling me that it was "like another Matrix...or something". But all I saw was Neo's body sputter and contort (nothing like his smooth and effortless act of stopping bullets at the end of the first film) as he pulsated what appeared to be a focussed EMP from his body upon the sentinels.

And, lo and behold, a few years later:

"They are almost on top of him, rising up to strike when--

He lifts his hand as one might reach out to feel the heat of a fire and suddenly, an electronic seizure shivers through each of them.

One by one struck some by invisible lightning, an individual E.M.P.--

That sends them crashing to the ground and as the last one falls--

So does Neo. Like a puppet cut from its strings, he collapses to the wet ground."

From the script.

Then, when it comes to the Oracle explaining what happened is happening to Neo, the Oracle says that Neo is connected to the Source, and that that is how he can do everything he can do from stopping sentinels to jacking in without a head-jack.

She doesn't say "honey, there's a second Matrix I just didn't bother telling you about". She says that "the power of the one reaches from here, all the way back to...the Source...that's what you felt when you touched those sentinels".

And what is the Source?

Well, that's explained in the Oracle's scene in Reloaded (you really should listen to her, she actually knows what she's talking about... ):

Oracle: A program can either choose to hide here, or return to the Source.
Neo: The machine mainframe.
Oracle: Yes.

Again, my only point of reference is the movies...

...and while I have attempted to entertain the prospect of a secondary Matrix, there is nothing, literally nothing to support that claim within the context of the trilogy.

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But, everyone falls the first time. Don't worry. Your mind makes what you believe real.

Right back atcha

Kid: Neo, I believe.

max314 wrote:

DaVinci wrote: Neo is Not a Cyborg Neo is only Human with USB connectors. Hence, he is a cyborg. "A person whose physiological functioning is aided by or dependent upon a mechanical or electronic device". Click dictionary.reference.com.... We have no idea just how extensive those cybernetic augmentations are, but it would make perfect sense that the entire nervous system is cybernetically in order to be able to cope with processing the electronic input-output signal transfer taking place upon jacking in. It would take next to no effort for the machines to slip in a wireless device in there somewhere.

Ok If having Jacks in your neck Make you a Cyborg then Neo is a Cyborg

Aahhh Yes we do
They have dissected many pod people and everyone is built the same way with NO Wifi.

If everyone had Wifi why the heck do they need a Jack in the back of their head?

I know what you are thinking "Yeah But Neo is the only One with Wifi IEEE 802.11g"

Why was every one so surprise when Neo Was in the Mobil Station?

Ohhh yeah thats were Neo is we forgot he had Wifi

What I want to know is why can't they use Cell Phones to Jack out?

DaVinci wrote:

What I want to know is why can't they use Cell Phones to Jack out?

Hm.. Just a thought..

It's still the year 1999. The telephone network system is based on hard lines, not cell phones.

They hack the hard lines as hackers do, they can't do the same to the cell phone lines.

max314 wrote:

For the pusposes of the plot, however, it seems fairly clear that the Oracle is the puppetmaster of these events. Even if she doesn't have complete control over them, she is still able to influence people/programs enough to tip them over the scales and into her palms.

It really puts a shocking spin on the ending when framed in that light. The Architect does not desire the continuence of the Matrix. It simply suits the machines' most expedient needs for fuel to continue the Matrix running. The Architect is willing to allow the Matrix to crash. Every human mind would be freed, because they would be dead. He is willing to allow Neo to win if that necessity presents itself.

The Oracle is less willing to let the system crash. She knows what Neo could do, could be, so she stalls him, sidelines him with a heroe's quest and a perfect love... illusions, vagueries of perception designed to lead him down a path to ultimate submission to her, to her as Smith, to the will of the Mother of the Matrix.

Peace is achieved? When peace is achieved it usually means that one side lost, not that both sides gave up. Which side loses in the end of Revolutions, and why is the person who built the Matrix that so effectively snares humans so damn happy?

max314 wrote:

Have you considered watching the movie recently?

Actually, no, I don't have a need for it. The idea of a real world and a matrix is a false dichotomy. It is presented as such to make a point. But, as such, it falls apart as the hero reveals its true purpose.

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Trust me, I've considered the possibility of a Matrix within a Matrix. The problem is that there is just not a shred of evidence...not a shred...that substantiates this claim.

Perhaps, but, I didn't ask you about that.

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I have only one frame of reference. The movies.

Or, so you believe.

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If you're implying that I am merely regurgitating an explanation given to me by someone else, you'd be a hundred per cent wrong.

I said what you're doing...you're denouncing magic with magic. Call it what you wish.

DaVinci wrote:

Ok If having Jacks in your neck Make you a Cyborg then Neo is a Cyborg

Indeed.

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Aahhh Yes we do They have dissected many pod people and everyone is built the same way with NO Wifi.

I'm sorry; who exactly has "dissected many pod people"?

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If everyone had Wifi why the heck do they need a Jack in the back of their head?

Not everyone. Just Neo.

As I detailed above, he was designed that way in order for him to manifest the powers of 'the One' within the Matrix, with his greater abilities being cut off. He, of course, harnesses these "greater abilities" at the end of Reloaded, and although he "should be dead" for doing so, it would appear that his love for Trinity managed to save him.

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I know what you are thinking "Yeah But Neo is the only One with Wifi IEEE 802.11g"

Yes, and I've explained why that as.

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Why was every one so surprise when Neo Was in the Mobil Station? Ohhh yeah thats were Neo is we forgot he had Wifi

Yeah, Mobil Ave acted as sort of a 'net' that Neo got caught in instead of dying. As Rama-Kandra states after telling us of his infinite love for his daugher, "the reason [Neo] is there is not so different than the reason [he] is there". That reason, of course, being love.

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What I want to know is why can't they use Cell Phones to Jack out?

A cell phone within the Matrix is not a real cell phone. It's just a glyph.

It has nothing to do with wireless communication in the real world.

Why only hardlines though? Probably made it a rule of the Matrix as a plot device for drama and action. Let's not forget that some of the biggest and best action moments in the trilogy are centered around getting to that hardline The whole freeway chase is essentially just a big-ass hardline dash

CaptPostMod wrote:

It really puts a shocking spin on the ending when framed in that light. The Architect does not desire the continuence of the Matrix. It simply suits the machines' most expedient needs for fuel to continue the Matrix running. The Architect is willing to allow the Matrix to crash. Every human mind would be freed, because they would be dead. He is willing to allow Neo to win if that necessity presents itself. The Oracle is less willing to let the system crash. She knows what Neo could do, could be, so she stalls him, sidelines him with a heroe's quest and a perfect love... illusions, vagueries of perception designed to lead him down a path to ultimate submission to her, to her as Smith, to the will of the Mother of the Matrix. Peace is achieved? When peace is achieved it usually means that one side lost, not that both sides gave up. Which side loses in the end of Revolutions, and why is the person who built the Matrix that so effectively snares humans so damn happy?

I think that the Oracle is essentially a humanist. A 'humanist' in the sense that she values those qualities that were once exclusive to humans that programs have also begun to gain in their evolution.

I think she wanted to stop the Architect's cold, by-the-numbers genocide every hundred years, as well as wanting to reform the Matrix into a system that could act as a viable haven of existence for programs as well as humans.

Gina Rink wrote:

Actually, no, I don't have a need for it. The idea of a real world and a matrix is a false dichotomy. It is presented as such to make a point. But, as such, it falls apart as the hero reveals its true purpose.

Do you realise that, if this secondary Matrix were indeed some plot fact, then Neo's actions throughout the trilogy essentially...mean...nothing?

Furthermore, the fact that it cannot be proven or substantiated is rather evident from the way in which you essentially avoid all my major points.

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Perhaps, but, I didn't ask you about that.

Actually, yes you did:

"Have you considered that your total frame of reference is false and that you have to think about a NEW paradigm?"
-- Gina Rink

And my response was that, despite having "considered the possibility of a Matrix within a Matrix...the problem is that there is just not a shred of evidence...not a shred...that substantiates this claim".

If I've misunderstood your question, please don't hesitate to clarify/rephrase. As opposed to just saying "that's not what I asked" and then spinning on your heel.

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Or, so you believe.

What else am I going to reference? The sky?

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I said what you're doing...you're denouncing magic with magic. Call it what you wish.

I'm going to say this real slow so that it doesn't fly past you for, like, the fifth time:

Wireless...communication...is...not...magic.

----

All you're doing is making empty assertions.

"Oh, it's magic", "oh, you've got the wrong frame of reference", "oh, it's so obvious what the truth is".

But you haven't given any support to your claims thus far whatsoever.

Conversely, I have given a micro-thesis as a parent post for you to reference and critique should you wish.

Once again, if you have no interest in engaging in such a dialogue, then I suggest you refrain from engaging in any dialogue surrounding this topic whatsoever, because merely banging on the wall isn't going to change things.

*raises hand*

Can I say something?

max314 wrote:

Do you realise that, if this secondary Matrix were indeed some plot fact, then Neo's actions throughout the trilogy essentially...mean...nothing? Furthermore, the fact that it cannot be proven or substantiated is rather evident from the way in which you essentially avoid all my major points.

I don't think Gina Rink is talking about a "second matrix" at all. At least not in the sense of a secondary virtual interactive program that is designed by the machines. If the audience is being pointed out something to that effect as demonstrated by Neo's powers in the "real world", it may be to show that the "real world" or this world can be transcended just as easily. That is why Gina Rink asked about whether you know the rules that govern all three realms.

max314 wrote:

"Have you considered that your total frame of reference is false and that you have to think about a NEW paradigm?" -- Gina Rink And my response was that, despite having "considered the possibility of a Matrix within a Matrix...the problem is that there is just not a shred of evidence...not a shred...that substantiates this claim".

New paradigm as in leave the traditional MWaM theories alone for a sec. and consider a different implication. You're right there no shred of evidence...of a MWaM. But like you said, the W's might be "screwing with the fourth dimension." Take this an run with it, Max314.

Max314 wrote:

Wireless...communication...is...not...magic.

Of course that depends on the perspective of who you ask. Using remote controls would be considered a form of magic by some observers, past and present. Magic or "miracle" is simply being at a loss to give a more detailed explanation for something.

max314 wrote:

Conversely, I have given a micro-thesis as a parent post for you to reference and critique should you wish.

I think you two would agree totally if you are on the same page. The parent post and Gina Rink's focus are in 2 different areas, imho.

Gina Rink wrote:

Once again, if you have no interest in engaging in such a dialogue, then I suggest you refrain from engaging in any dialogue surrounding this topic whatsoever, because merely banging on the wall isn't going to change things.

You both are interested, that's why you've gotten this far I'm enjoying this and I look forward to how this conversation progresses and what insights are probably going to come of it.

*sitting back down*

Ok, guys. It is very simple. THERE IS A MATRIX WITHIN A MATRIX.
That's the whole point of the film. Remember when Morpheus says: 'How do you define real?'
That's the core and nucleus of the whole film. It's about reality.
Therefore it makes sense that the world which Neo is TOLD and THINKS is real, is in fact another simulation...another dream world.
Perfectly explained at the very beginning of Revolutions with the golden code from the machine city merging into the green code. Also, when the sentinel goes PHYSICALLY through Neo and Trinity's ship at the end of Revolutions.

max314 wrote:

Quote: What I want to know is why can't they use Cell Phones to Jack out? A cell phone within the Matrix is not a real cell phone. It's just a glyph. It has nothing to do with wireless communication in the real world. Why only hardlines though? Probably made it a rule of the Matrix as a plot device for drama and action. Let's not forget that some of the biggest and best action moments in the trilogy are centered around getting to that hardline The whole freeway chase is essentially just a big-ass hardline dash

Yeah, I agree but the rebels can't just pick any phone and exit the Matrix. There are certain phones that they use as exits from the system. That means they hacked certain hardlines. Just like the hackers of the '90s. Remember the Brothers started writing in 1993 and the hackers untill that time were known for the tricks that they did with hardlines. Nowadays all you hear is about trojans and ddos attacks.

Also watching the rebels run to a phone booth reminds me of comics, like Superman, and we all know the love of the Brothers for comics.

intell wrote:

*raises hand* Can I say something?

But of course

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I don't think Gina Rink is talking about a "second matrix" at all. At least not in the sense of a secondary virtual interactive program that is designed by the machines. If the audience is being pointed out something to that effect as demonstrated by Neo's powers in the "real world", it may be to show that the "real world" or this world can be transcended just as easily. That is why Gina Rink asked about whether you know the rules that govern all three realms.

Right, okay.

If that is the case, though, and Ms. Rink is indeed advocating the idea that Neo is essentially seeing the fabric of the real world with his 'third eye', then I wonder how that would explain why it is that Neo cannot see anything other than what has come from the Source (i.e. he can't see Trinity or th ship).

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New paradigm as in leave the traditional MWaM theories alone for a sec. and consider a different implication. You're right there no shred of evidence...of a MWaM. But like you said, the W's might be "screwing with the fourth dimension." Take this an run with it, Max314.

Okay, I bite. Care to expand a little?

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Of course that depends on the perspective of who you ask. Using remote controls would be considered a form of magic by some observers, past and present. Magic or "miracle" is simply being at a loss to give a more detailed explanation for something.

Indeed. Luckily, though, we are not "at a loss to give a more detailed explanation for" Neo's abilities. Therefore, we can quite safely dispense with Gina's insistence on referring to it as a form of "magic", no?

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I think you two would agree totally if you are on the same page. The parent post and Gina Rink's focus are in 2 different areas, imho.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were the case.

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You both are interested, that's why you've gotten this far I'm enjoying this and I look forward to how this conversation progresses and what insights are probably going to come of it.

Well, as long as you're having fun

havehope wrote:

Ok, guys. It is very simple. THERE IS A MATRIX WITHIN A MATRIX. That's the whole point of the film. Remember when Morpheus says: 'How do you define real?' That's the core and nucleus of the whole film. It's about reality.

Actually, it's about subjectivity.

The real world is a 'Matrix' in the sense that the machines still have a control system in place for taking care of Zion with the use of the Prophecy and the One as a lie for the Zionites to buy into.

But it's not a literal Matrix.

Else, as I said above, Neo's actions would have meant absolutely nothing.

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Therefore it makes sense that the world which Neo is TOLD and THINKS is real, is in fact another simulation...another dream world.

Yes, a simulated dream world in the sense that the machines have made a false political construct for the Zionites to live in.

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Perfectly explained at the very beginning of Revolutions with the golden code from the machine city merging into the green code.

When's that?

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Also, when the sentinel goes PHYSICALLY through Neo and Trinity's ship at the end of Revolutions.

That's simply the sentinel's residual energy ghost passing through Neo.

th3 p4th wrote:

max314 wrote: Quote: What I want to know is why can't they use Cell Phones to Jack out? A cell phone within the Matrix is not a real cell phone. It's just a glyph. It has nothing to do with wireless communication in the real world. Why only hardlines though? Probably made it a rule of the Matrix as a plot device for drama and action. Let's not forget that some of the biggest and best action moments in the trilogy are centered around getting to that hardline The whole freeway chase is essentially just a big-ass hardline dash Yeah, I agree but the rebels can't just pick any phone and exit the Matrix. There are certain phones that they use as exits from the system. That means they hacked certain hardlines. Just like the hackers of the '90s. Remember the Brothers started writing in 1993 and the hackers untill that time were known for the tricks that they did with hardlines. Nowadays all you hear is about trojans and ddos attacks. Also watching the rebels run to a phone booth reminds me of comics, like Superman, and we all know the love of the Brothers for comics.

Indeed, yes.