»"These are the other potentials..."«

So...we see the other potentials when Neo first walks into the Oracles apartment. They are all very young. This goes along with what Morpheus explains earlier in the movie. "We have a rule...we never free a mind once it reaches a certain age".


Do you guys think these potentials are already unplugged...or do you think they evaluate the kids before unplugging them?


I would assume they are already unplugged. They are obviously aware that the Matrix exists...so going on with a normal life is not an option.

I agree.

Spinak wrote:

I would assume they are already unplugged. They are obviously aware that the Matrix exists...so going on with a normal life is not an option.

They're programs. At least, Spoon Boy is.

Please explain why you think so.

EDIT

Don't forget that at Reloaded Neo takes a spoon from Kid that has taken it from "one of the Orphans"

EDIT 2

whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com...

CaptPostMod wrote:

Spinak wrote: I would assume they are already unplugged. They are obviously aware that the Matrix exists...so going on with a normal life is not an option. They're programs. At least, Spoon Boy is.

How could he be a program and be in Zion to make a spoon for Neo? Not to mention that "the one" is human...and therefore the potentials are as well.

Spinak wrote:

How could he be a program and be in Zion to make a spoon for Neo? Not to mention that "the one" is human...and therefore the potentials are as well.

I asked the same questions. But the Kid only says "A gift from one of the orphans. He made me swear to get it to you before you left. He said you'd understand." The Kid doesn't say where the orphan was or whether he gave him that exact spoon or just made the Kid swear to bring Neo a spoon.

As for why they are called potentials and yet the Spoon Boy is a program, the Oracle could have been misleading Neo. The other potential what's? Maybe she meant potential Sati's?

Whatever the case the Matrix comics fairly clearly show that the Spoon Boy is a program. For what it's worth, I didn't want to accept it either

Quote:

I asked the same questions. But the Kid only says "A gift from one of the orphans. He made me swear to get it to you before you left. He said you'd understand." The Kid doesn't say where the orphan was or whether he gave him that exact spoon or just made the Kid swear to bring Neo a spoon.

So either:

A) Spoon Boy was freed from the Matrix and becomes a citizen of Zion. He and Neo have a bond from their interaction in the Oracles apartment. He believes in Neo just as thousands of other citizens of Zion do. So just before Neo leaves Zion to basically save the whole world, he makes him a spoon, which is a clear reminder to Neo as to what they talked about that day...."there is no spoon", to encourage him to have that attitude when he goes on his adventure.

or

B) Some other random orphan wants to make Neo a gift and it just happens to be a spoon....which coincidently is exactly what Neo had talked about with another orphan (spoon boy)

Quote:

As for why they are called potentials and yet the Spoon Boy is a program, the Oracle could have been misleading Neo. The other potential what's? Maybe she meant potential Sati's?

Morpheus is not the only captain searching for "the one". All the other ships are as well. When a ship thinks they have found "the one", they eventually bring them to the oracle...just like any other person that is potentially "the one"

Although, to be perfectly honest, the thought that the whole potential thing was a front for Neo has crossed my mind before. The prophecy was....so anything is possible I guess.

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Whatever the case the Matrix comics fairly clearly show that the Spoon Boy is a program. For what it's worth, I didn't want to accept it either

I read all of the comics and I don't remember walking away thinking, "Wow, spoon boy was a program". I don't remember all of it. Can you provide the evidence?

Are the comics canonical or are they more a writer taking the saga in his/her own direction?

Plus, there is no movie facts pointing to the spoon kid being a program (and I don't remember that comic providing any, either) so I think the Capt. is having fun with you.

intell wrote:

Are the comics canonical or are they more a writer taking the saga in his/her own direction?

I gave the link to the comic just for fun not to prove anything.

But spoon boy being a program for me doesn't make sense.

Spinak wrote:

A) Spoon Boy was freed from the Matrix and becomes a citizen of Zion. He and Neo have a bond from their interaction in the Oracles apartment. He believes in Neo just as thousands of other citizens of Zion do. So just before Neo leaves Zion to basically save the whole world, he makes him a spoon, which is a clear reminder to Neo as to what they talked about that day...."there is no spoon", to encourage him to have that attitude when he goes on his adventure.

Show me where I said any of this? What I said was, the orphan could have been in the Matrix, told the Kid (in the Matrix) to bring Neo a spoon before Neo went out on his next adventure.

Spinak wrote:

I read all of the comics and I don't remember walking away thinking, "Wow, spoon boy was a program". I don't remember all of it. Can you provide the evidence?

The Kid has no crew with him even though he's still a baby. He is reprogramming the Matrix from with-in (making all the statues come alive), which is something only Neo and programs seem to be able to do.

But if you disagree, that's kewl. It's not my argument, actually, so you might do a search for Spoon Boy on the forum. As I said, I was on your side, but then someone else convinced me. And as intell points out, the comics are non-canonical. They're Midrash like everything else outside the two games, three movies, and Animatrix. But did you ever notice how nearly identical the Potentials look?

I believe the entire "potentials" scene was a big mistake. This mistake was compounded with a follow up story in the Matrix comics that further validated the "potentials". I think that originally the W. Bros intended for this to be a way for Neo to see that he in fact was not unique. Once he saw that he was one among many who could be the One this would make it easier for him to believe he in fact was not the One. Apparently they thought this would allow them to explore other avenues for story development. I think the fact that the potentials storyline has been all but abandoned shows they weren't able to get it to fit in with the overall story after all. The scene with Kid and the spoon in Reloaded was a nice touch but in the end the movie would not have gone one bit differently if the scene had been dropped. Simply put, they decided to go in another direction after the first movie was made.

Some people think Sati is one of these potentials and that Oracle meant they were other "potential Oracles". Considering that the potentials almost certainly couldn't be real children that is the only option left to the makers of the film. Since the W. Bros don't want to discuss how the One is selected/made then the potentials can't be part of that equation since it would require discussion of how the One becomes the One.

In the final analysis I think they decided this didn't fit in with the direction they ultimately wanted to take the story and rather than try to explain it away they simply abandoned it without comment.

Capt.. wrote:

And as intell points out, the comics are non-canonical. They're Midrash like everything else outside the two games, three movies, and Animatrix.

As I always say for me canonical are only the three movies + 4 episodes of Animatrix that the Ws have written + EtM + certain info from PoN(e.g that the 2 agents from the first movie continue to work alone without Smith etc)

The rest episodes from the Animatrix have little in common with the Trilogy of the films and from the commentaries and the extras I understood that the writers and directors wanted to put their own ideas and style. Of course the Ws approved them and maybe they helped to make them a little more matrix-y but that's it.

So for those that hope that Animatrix 2 is going to be made, I have to tell you this: now that the Trilogy is over and there are certain ideas that the audience wants to be explored and know better, the Ws are not going to let others write Animatrix episodes. They have to write them themselves and possibly direct them. But I don't think that they want to be involved in any matrix project for some time. So Animatrix 2 might come some years later or never. Don't expect it any time soon.

Also the producers, sound engineers etc were the same guys that were involved in the films and I believe that it won't be easy to get back everyone again for a matrix project.

As for the Matrix Online I have to see how it ends and then read the whole storyline from the beginning. Currently I think that is just another game just like PoN. They are inventing characters that have little to do with the movies, like the giagantic ants in PoN.

Evolusionary wrote:

I think that originally the W. Bros intended for this to be a way for Neo to see that he in fact was not unique.

Look who is back!

Yeah good thought, because at the shooting script Neo has just discussed with Morpheus (before he opens Oracle's door) that 5 guys before him were "the One" for a short period and failed.

As much as a lot of people may not like it, I think there was a lot of random thought interjected into the Matrix. The Bros themselves say that they put in every thought they could. The average hollywood movie is just under 2 hours long. The First Matrix movie alone was an hour and 20 minutes. What this tells you is that there was plenty of material that was left on the cutting room floor. A type of triage had to be conducted and something that should have been left on the floor (the scene with the other potentials) was left in and things that would have helped clarify some things (Revolutions- Merovengian saying he was aware stopping the One would cause the end of the world) were left out.

They had too much story. They realized it a little too late. Some things have remained to the point of filming that have muddied the waters. I don't think the Bros. have any idea how to reconcile this with their story. And thus more experienced writers have been brought in to carry the story on online. While they have tackled some parts of explaining the foundation of the story they have for the most part not really addressed the still nagging questions.

I'm reminded of an episode of the ABC comedy Family Matters (the show with Steve Urkel). Originally Steve's next door neighbor, Carl, had three daughters. At the end of one episode the youngest of the daughters went up to her room and was never seen or referenced on the show again. The producers had to cut her for monetary reasons. They chose not to write her out of the show (by removal or killing her off). And thus she inexplicably disappeared. I'm thinking the Bros. had the script sold before they were had ironed out some of these plot holes. At this point trying to address these gaping subtractions would not fit within the story's framework.

Quote:

I'm reminded of an episode of the ABC comedy Family Matters (the show with Steve Urkel). Originally Steve's next door neighbor, Carl, had three daughters. At the end of one episode the youngest of the daughters went up to her room and was never seen or referenced on the show again. The producers had to cut her for monetary reasons. They chose not to write her out of the show (by removal or killing her off). And thus she inexplicably disappeared. I'm thinking the Bros. had the script sold before they were had ironed out some of these plot holes. At this point trying to address these gaping subtractions would not fit within the story's framework.

The reason why that is not a good example is because with a TV show, they shoot the first episode (pilot) for the network to see if they will pick it up. If they are, there can be up to a year until they start shooting the show in a regular basis. So episode one and two can have up to a year in between them. Also, with a movie, they have the entire movie story boarded long before a camera is rolling.


The W's had the entire story for the trilogy figured out even before they shot there first movie, "Bound". Warner Brothers had already signed on for the Matrix but wanted the W's to make a 5 million dollar movie just to make sure they knew what the fuck they were doing.

I have a hard time believing that even a few, if any scenes at all were cut out. I would pay anything to get my hands on those if they exsisted.

You can find online the 1996, 1997 and 1998 shooting script of the first movie. Only a couple of scenes were cut, nothing too big.

And from the Reloaded and Revolutions scripts are almost identical with the film versions.

Quote:

You can find online the 1996, 1997 and 1998 shooting script of the first movie. Only a couple of scenes were cut, nothing too big. And from the Reloaded and Revolutions scripts are almost identical with the film versions

I actually didnt mean cut from the script...I meant filmed scenes. I should of been more specific...sorry

Most of the shooting scripts were stuck to. While it is true there aren't whole missing scenes, there were ,however, some minor omissions. It is these omissions that referenced specific things. For example in the Reloaded scripts that P4th/ Tozy provided us with we see that Neo references a previous One in both the first and second movies. However in the end the decision was made that he would be totally ignorant to any previous integral anamolies. He would only be aware that he might be the reincarnation of a special man born in the Matrix.

In Revolutions Merovengian originally says that Morpheus/Trinity should have no compunctions about taking the Oracles eyes and giving them to him

Quote:

Merovengian: "since she won't need them anymore, what with the end of the world and all."

The other potentials, the previous Ones, Merovengian valuing Oracle's eyes over preventing the end of the Matrix. These are some of the gaping holes alluded to in some of the omitted scenes. However, as I said before, I don't think the W. Bros had any idea how to reconcile any of these ideas since in the end they had to address them and simply didn't. For example, we are all aware of how when Neo confronts Oracle in Revolutions she addresses all of his questions with non-answers. No doubt this would have been the same mechanism they would have employed to address any of the other details regarding these other dangling plotholes. We see in the comics/Reloaded the "other potentials" are referenced but there are no clear explainations of what they are.

The Matrix is a very large, very complex story. It incorporates a lot of ideas garnered over several years. A lot of thoughts that might have been included originally were culled from the final product. However, considering just the complexity of the project alone I think it would be naieve to think that the product that made it to the screen was a complete, cohesive work. While the Bros. might have been happy with the final result, that probably should be read as "We are glad that so many people took the film as an idea movie more than just an action movie."

Some of the ideas simply had no place in the final continium.

Spinak wrote:

Quote: You can find online the 1996, 1997 and 1998 shooting script of the first movie. Only a couple of scenes were cut, nothing too big. And from the Reloaded and Revolutions scripts are almost identical with the film versions I actually didnt mean cut from the script...I meant filmed scenes. I should of been more specific...sorry

You can't find these two images in the final version of the Matrix but they are in the original theatrical trailer.

Read the comic. As for the thread: the spoon kid sent him the spoon. It's the only explination that makes sense. the comic shows that the kid got into the head of the artist. not that he's a program. the machines coming to life was in her head. its pretty clear.

It seems that the Oracle has an affinity for taking in orphans. Perhaps the other potentials were orphans w/ extraordinary powers. Perhaps?

We would be able to argue the purpose of the other potentials, but the spoon in the real world was from spoon boy. The comic shows him getting into the head of the artist; nothing more.

jolly oh!

Aquin wrote:

We would be able to argue the purpose of the other potentials, but the spoon in the real world was from spoon boy.

I still don't see where anyone is saying otherwise?

CaptPostMod wrote:

I asked the same questions. But the Kid only says "A gift from one of the orphans. He made me swear to get it to you before you left. He said you'd understand." The Kid doesn't say where the orphan was or whether he gave him that exact spoon or just made the Kid swear to bring Neo a spoon.

Seems like it wasn't that established from this post. But I misread what you said. (my b)

It would seem that the spoon boy is now out of the matrix since the Kid (from any of the movies or animatrix) doesn't have any contact w/ the spoon boy inside the matrix.

Aquin wrote:

It would seem that the spoon boy is now out of the matrix since the Kid (from any of the movies or animatrix) doesn't have any contact w/ the spoon boy inside the matrix.

But by that logic, we never see the Kid (from any of the movies or animatrix) have any contact w/ the spoon boy in Zion either.

And furthering that thought. If the orphan is in Zion, why doesn't he give Neo the spoon himself? Neo (except when getting down with Trinity) is freely open to his followers. So if the Spoon Boy were in Zion, why wouldn't he just come to Neo himself? Why would he need an intermediary?

Let's look at the script:

KID Just in time! You're going to see the Oracle, aren't you?
MORPHEUS We don't have time—
KID I'm sorry sir? I just had to give something to Neo. A gift from one of the orphans. He made me swear to get it to Neo before he left.
From his pocket, he hands Neo a spoon.
KID (CONT'D) He said you'd understand.
Neo looks into the spoon and smiles.

Hm.. It doesn't help.

Having fun, Capt...

Capt wrote:

As for why they are called potentials and yet the Spoon Boy is a program, the Oracle could have been misleading Neo. The other potential what's? Maybe she meant potential Sati's?

Why would she when Sati - who appears only about 6 months later - is the first of her kind and so damn special that the Oracle sacrifices her shell to save her from deletion?

Capt wrote:

the orphan could have been in the Matrix, told the Kid (in the Matrix) to bring Neo a spoon before Neo went out on his next adventure.

Nah, the kid didn't say: "he asked me to give Neo this", but...

"I just had to give (...) Neo (...) a gift from one of the orphans"

Also, they can't have met in the Matrix because there was just one ship on broadcast level,... while the kid did welcome Neo back to Zion.

Capt wrote:

If the orphan is in Zion, why doesn't he give Neo the spoon himself? Neo (except when getting down with Trinity) is freely open to his followers. So if the Spoon Boy were in Zion, why wouldn't he just come to Neo himself? Why would he need an intermediary?

To involve the kid?
Why?...
I have no idea!...

And this gets us to: how does spoon boy know that Neo is going to see the Oracle?