»"Why isn't the serum working"?«

"Perhaps we're asking the wrong questions"


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I doubt it. Why didn't the serum work on Morpheus?


A Simple answer:

Morpheus is becoming less bound by the limits of the Matrix. Yada, Yada, Yada...


or


An over-complicated theory:

Maybe it's possible that the serum itself was intentionally "re-written" by the machines to be ineffective...without the knowledge of the agents. The agents have no idea what was going on in the grande scheme of things. The access codes are actually irrelevant to the machines. The idea of obtaining the codes is just to give purpose to the agents. The machines don't need to breech Zion any quicker than they do. The digging sentinels are timed perfectly with the path of "the one" to motivate him to choose the door to the right in the Architects chambers. This is exactly what the machines need "the one" to do. It's much easier for the Architect to sell that idea when the sentinel army is slowly but steadily digging their way closer and closer to Zion.



I don't know. Thoughts?

Hmm , I think it's rather because Morpheus has a very strong will. But I could be wrong of course.

my thoughts are that the serum not working was more a function of Morpheous strength of mind, and perhaps even "maybe we're not asking the right questions" then a faulty serum. And how much the agents know about the grand scheme of things I have always felt is very much up for debate. They go after the codes because they must go after the codes... Zion's defenses are predicated on them and if the machines didn't go after them it would be kind of fishy... plus having the codes would make things easier... and furthermore... we know Smith wants the codes to get free... so he's not exactly on the same page as his brother agents. And the slow digging itself, while perhaps ideal in the sense of it's inevitable approach on zion, is still slow, and vulnrable to counterattack... at least potentially, and so potentially could be a problem.

I watched the scene again and I found this strange coincidence : the effect we see on Agent Jones' laptop is similar to the one we see when Smith copies someones, except it's silver here.

Was it made on purpose ?

Apocryphe wrote:

I watched the scene again and I found this strange coincidence : the effect we see on Agent Jones' laptop is similar to the one we see when Smith copies someones, except it's silver here. Was it made on purpose ?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you explain it better?

I mean that maybe, the process they used to brainwash Morhpeus is similar to the one Smith uses to copy himself into people.

They load a program (just like Smith loaded himself into Bane) and that program will know everything Morpheus knows (just like Smith knows everything his victims know).

That would explain why Morpheus can resist the serum : it's because he's one of the 1% of people who can refuse the program.

Quote:

The access codes are actually irrelevant to the machines.

This is an interesting point. The easy solution is that Morpheus had stronger strength of will, reinforced by his faith in Neo. But scene in light of the later movies, the Agents interrogate Morpheus scene takes on a different context.

M2 and M3 toss out the idea that access codes are needed to get to Zion. Effectively, this alters the interrogation scene in M1.

But can we interpret a scene in M1 in terms of M2 and M3? Was M1 written with all of M2 and M3 in mind, or were the later movies developed afterwards? A perusal of an early draft of M2 shows no machine attack on Zion in it, so one suspects the W brothers did not have this in mind when they did the first movie.

The draft is fake

Cyberia wrote:

Quote: The access codes are actually irrelevant to the machines. This is an interesting point. The easy solution is that Morpheus had stronger strength of will, reinforced by his faith in Neo. But scene in light of the later movies, the Agents interrogate Morpheus scene takes on a different context. M2 and M3 toss out the idea that access codes are needed to get to Zion. Effectively, this alters the interrogation scene in M1.

This brings another important question. We know that the machines are spying zionnist (see other posts about how the W. brothers asked for Zion to look like the cylindric Matrix) and that they could easely get these codes.

Then, why do they dig ? It consumes a lot of energy, it woul be easier to kill them from the inside by sending another brainwashed guy like Bane. There is no need to keep up the illusion anymore since they'll destroy everything and non will remember.

I've always seen Smith's attempt of gaining Zion's (mainframe?) codes as a desperate attempt to escape his tedious work as an agent. Smith confesses that he's sick and tired of even the smell of humans.

In this respect Smith has rebellious leanings already in this early stage. He wants to give up his gate keeping job!

/z
(Hi again! Long time since I've been around at these boards!)

That's strange because if Smith finds the codes, then he won't have any purpose anymore and therefore will be deleted.

Maybe that Agents can't kill themselves and since they're immortal and indestructible, Smith could not bear it anymore and he prefered to be deleted (what he calls being free) rather than living with these human feelings he had.

Yes, that's right, deleted more technically.

He wants the codes, then he wants to destroy the Zion mainframe, creating mayhay, and all humans die or whatever, destroying the detailed plan of the Architect. All agents including himself won't have to chase Zion rebelions since there wouldn't be any anymore, ... and finally he (and maybe other agents) won't have any purpose anymore and the get deleted, and he wouldn't have to smell those smelly humans anymore! ... smell, "if there is such a thing"!

Quote:

But can we interpret a scene in M1 in terms of M2 and M3? Was M1 written with all of M2 and M3 in mind, or were the later movies developed afterwards? A perusal of an early draft of M2 shows no machine attack on Zion in it, so one suspects the W brothers did not have this in mind when they did the first movie.

The trilogy was written even before they wrote and directed "Bound" in 1996

Yeah, they presented the Trilogy to Warner Bros and they said.. whoa.. let's see how the 1st one works and we will later think about the other 2.

zynxamek wrote:

Yes, that's right, deleted more technically. He wants the codes, then he wants to destroy the Zion mainframe, creating mayhay, and all humans die or whatever, destroying the detailed plan of the Architect. All agents including himself won't have to chase Zion rebelions since there wouldn't be any anymore, ... and finally he (and maybe other agents) won't have any purpose anymore and the get deleted, and he wouldn't have to smell those smelly humans anymore! ... smell, "if there is such a thing"!

Yeah and it also fits with the whole "choice principle", Smith is not given the choice to accept or refuse the system and that's why he becomes an anomaly too.

To get back to the question of why the machines wouldn't just shut down Zion by obtaining the codes to Zion's mainframe and closing down Zion, instead of digging all that way through the earth's crust.

In the later films we see the broader picture of how the machines had designed the Zionist resistance with Zion and all. The machines and agents would police the humans' activity and give them a hard time in such a way that the red-pills are always in the illusion of believing that one day they might win over the Matrix and the machines.

If the machines had the codes and just shut Zion down, Neo wouldn't had managed his way to the Architect. All the commited red-pills needed the stress of those 72 hours to do their utmost to get the key and find their way to the Architect. They had to really believe they were fighting the war that would supposedly end all wars. Maybe the stress was also needed to get the One psychologically prepared to make the "right" choice in the Architect's room.

Reasonable thinking?

Right. No reset.

It's still not a good explanation. The machines could have taken Zion by surprise while Neo was inside the Matrix, the Oracle would have told him "to save Zion, you must go to the door, find the keymaker etc."

There, the machines would have started destroying Zion. Since Zion must be destroyed, no matter what, then all that digging stuff is useless except...

Well, except if Deus Ex always had a contigency plan in case the One would have refused to reload.

I believe that Neo's path has always been an eventualitty that the machines were prepared and here is a good hint for it : in the original script, when Neo meets Rama, he says :

"where we come from, you are called "the one that is expected".

Somehow, the higher programs knew that one day, the Architect's system of control would fail.

This is an interesting subject and brings into focus many issues:

The machines (through agents) desire via purpose to obtain Zion’s access-codes.

Which represent the very ‘gates’ of Zion both in a literal sense as well as spiritual. We see the Neb upon approach through Zion Control with operators jacked in, i.e. the mind (like the Matrix). Why not just wire the codes, why this display of ‘higher consciousness’ if it were to not represent a more ‘spiritual’ approach to entering Zion (not to mention ‘opening’ the meaning of the Neb up)

Smith: Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, do you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how.

This isn’t just to gain quicker access to destroying Zion "allowing a temporary dissemination of the code", but permanent destruction of it (the last remaining hope/anomaly represented by Zion)

The Architect wants to eliminate this ‘flaw’ remember?

The second point in conjunction with the use of the serum is the argument used to break Morpheus mind:

Evolution:

Hmmm, that's a very good point Apocryphe. But that last push of disobedience of the total recall (ordered because the squiddies were digging) possible by the "religious" faith of the One who would end all wars, gave that necessary energy to accomplish of getting Neo to the architect. As the Oracle said (something like) "If one fails, all fail". Those red-pills operating at broadcast depth had to have that motivation of sacrificing all they had, operating by the same faith as Morpheus had himself.

Though the idea of the squiddies digging, thus giving room for a contingency plan also makes a very lot of sense from the perspective you gave! Actually probably a better observation than mine! But I think they work pretty well together though. Thanks for sharing that!

Inevitability: I like that symbolic association of breaking Morpheus' mind and the Architect trying to eliminate the "flaw". But the desperation of Smith is contrasted to the Architect's coolness of mind, though. And the Oracle seems to appreciate this "flaw" or originality instead, and Persephone is seeking something incomprehensible, like love, which was exactly what surprised the Architect when Neo chose Trinity, not as expected like Rama!

In a way Neo's super-anomaly (helped out by the other red-pill's disobedience and faith) eventually opens the door toward ending this inner war of Vanity & Corruption and toward initiating Virtue & Life, for both Man & Machine.

/z

Glad to see you agreed

Indeed, the whole religious thing was there to help Neo to accept to go to to the door of light.

I think there is more than simply opening the door, somehow Neo had to willingly accept/trust the program beyond the door (aka the Architect) without even knowing it/him.

We clearly see that Archie can communicate with Neo through a deeper level (he can read his chemical reactions) and also Neo can read in him since he trusted him with his life (he even said to Morpheus something like "I swear it's the truth, I believed him", why trust him if he's his ennemy ?).

The change of consciousness that Archie talks about happened because Neo accepted it first (principle of choice), hence all that religious stuff and all.

Apocryphe wrote:

Glad to see you agreed Indeed, the whole religious thing was there to help Neo to accept to go to to the door of light. I think there is more than simply opening the door, somehow Neo had to willingly accept/trust the program beyond the door (aka the Architect) without even knowing it/him. We clearly see that Archie can communicate with Neo through a deeper level (he can read his chemical reactions) and also Neo can read in him since he trusted him with his life (he even said to Morpheus something like "I swear it's the truth, I believed him", why trust him if he's his ennemy ?). The change of consciousness that Archie talks about happened because Neo accepted it first (principle of choice), hence all that religious stuff and all.

Please state how you've come to these conclusions.

I noticed you like to make people write for nothing, Intell. Now I have some real business to do, I will say adieu and goodbye.

Told ya, intell be nice or we'll ban ya

Now, seriously, Apocryphe is half right and half wrong.

I just wanted to hear his explanation of these things, otherwise I can just respond that he likes to write for nothing.

Ya hear that Apoc? I'm not going to pay you for anymore posts

Apoc, for instance, wrote:

Neo can read in him since he trusted him with his life (he even said to Morpheus something like "I swear it's the truth, I believed him", why trust him if he's his ennemy ?).

Why trust him? Because Neo knew it was the truth, simply. In other words its the message that was trusted and not necessarily the messenger.

There are a few other things I would say and ask just to be sure I know where Apoc is coming from, but like you said, I'll be nice